....but these 3 notes

[Fausto]

Without going too far with the question

...but these 3 notes—D, C, and B nat, just above the "pedals," which require the use of the two rotors and more tubing—are they, or should they always be, consistently clear and defined, or sometimes or often (as in my case) I may find it difficult to produce them for possible reasons attributable to:

A - response from horn to horn; the lighter ones seem to respond better

B - breathiness; different and/or irregular breath delivery; sometimes I feel like it's slowed down

C - difficulty finding the right position and exposure of the lips

B and C, I think, should interact well for best results

D - shortness of breath; after a good test, the next one is already poor and needs work to improve

E - other

How do you deal with these possible cases?

Fausto

[WilliamLang]

On bass they need to be clear no matter what. On tenor I need a good low C, and a passable ability to lip to the low B on occasion. I guess I deal with that through practice. Drones and tuners help.

[AtomicClock]

I don't think it's possible to be nimble out at the end of the stockings. So I also practice C, B, Bb false tones on the valve. But it's very rare that I need any of those notes. As a tenor player, they come up once a decade or so (and always orchestrated so no one would miss them if they weren't there)
.

[Fausto]

Wow! The ability to do things!!
Thanks for your input!

I understand that my physiological emission system evidently has some flaws that are perhaps irreparable.
Lung exercises and time to perform them would be necessary.

Actually, I never have to play them, but just for a bit of practice and maintenance.

Then, since I have the D pump, I replace it with the G.b one, and using a single valve makes it easier, even if the difficulty remains.

William, what do you mean by "drones"?

[GabrielRice]

Fausto, are you still playing the Weril bass trombone in your profile? If you are, I'm not surprised you have trouble with double valve notes.

Anyway, one thing you can do to help that register is to do the same lip slurs you do on the open horn through the valve register. I'm attaching a pdf - when they go below E, play them with one or two valves down for all three notes of the slurs. You will need A LOT of air in your body to support these slurs and make them smooth, and this is a great way to play bass trombone all the time.

Hill page one.pdf

[WilliamLang]

By drones I mean steady pitches that can be used for tuning. A lot of digital tuners have this option somewhere, and here's an example I can find quickly on youtube:

[Kbiggs]

Fausto, are you still playing the Weril bass trombone in your profile? If you are, I'm not surprised you have trouble with double valve notes.

Anyway, one thing you can do to help that register is to do the same lip slurs you do on the open horn through the valve register. I'm attaching a pdf - when they go below E, play them with one or two valves down for all three notes of the slurs. You will need A LOT of air in your body to support these slurs and make them smooth, and this is a great way to play bass trombone all the time.

Hill page one.pdf

I have those same exercises, by my copy is worn and almost illegible. It also has some additional exercises. I wrote them down:

Bill Hill Lip Slurs.pdf

For fun, I wrote them down one octave as well:

Bill Hill 8ve basso.pdf

FWIW, there are many etude books that work the lower valve register, like Lew Gillis, Reg Fink, Allen Ostrander, etc. You learn each position in progression.

Low D is more difficult than it seems. Like 5th position (f#, c#, f#, etc.), low D resides in “no man’s land.” Eb is in a low 3rd or a sharp 4th, and Db/C# is in a slightly flat 6th. But low D is flatter than you’d like, and sharper than you think.

[ghmerrill]

Since I play only in a big band now, I encounter these notes A LOT, and in the context of some demanding tempos and jumps to/from the middle of the staff. I've found -- with two quite different basses now -- that having the right lead pipe (or the wrong lead pipe) can make a significant difference. I've somehow amassed a collection of five different pipes now: a Getzen #2, Brass Ark (Brad Close) drawn red brass MV50, a brass MK50, a nickel MK50, and a nickel M/K George Roberts.

Of those, the best choices for me (now with my Getzen 1052) are the (red brass) Brad Close MV50 and the yellow brass MK50. Both of these I've shortened by about 3/8". The (stock) Getzen #2 is pretty good, but just a bit less open (and just a bit "stuffy" in that range). After a LOT of experimentation, I've settled on the Close MV50 both in terms of the sound and ease of articulation in the double valve range, but the brass MK50 is close behind -- just not quite so good in terms of the articulation. The nickel MK50 also works well, but isn't quite the sound I'm looking for.

I've found that a pipe can work very well across the entire range -- up to a point where you have to make repeated jumps at a high tempo from the middle of the staff into that low D/Db/C/B range, and then it can feel like hitting a wall. Maybe there is some "mastery of technique" approach that can overcome this, but there's also no question that the lead pipe can make an obvious difference. But of course, this is also in the context of your mouthpiece and its properties.

[Fausto]

Beautiful! So many helpful suggestions. Thanks!

So, I'll list you by name since I'm not very good at using it. Sorry.

WilliamLang
Interesting! They seem similar to frequency generators for testing speakers. I have several on my phone that a friend loaded for me. They're useful for practicing your ear as well as your tuner.

GabrielRice.
Yes, it's the Weril, what can I say? I've tried a lot of horns lately to find a possible replacement, with different valve—traditional, Hangmann, Thaier, etc.—from the cheap ones up to $8,000. Aside from a very light Edwards, it seemed like a featherweight and couldn't help but be very easy, Eastmann and xO Jupiter, all the others didn't convince me. I'm talking about Yamaha, Bach, Conn, Adams, absolutely beautiful pieces. But... I don't say about Shires and Greenhoe; they're not available in my area right now. And then I'm strongly attracted to bells 10" and +. Now, replacing the Weril, with the improvements I've made, is very difficult for me. I still have to try Willson and Schagler, which are not too far from me. Of course, you need a lot of air, and that's a bit of a handicap for me. Years ago I lost 30% of it in a few days, and all the tests to find the cause were useless.
Maybe that's the real problem.

Ghmerril
A question, is that a King you see in the photo? I tried an example from the '80s, beautiful and with its period charm.

Yes, I also thought about the leadpipe. I have 4 of them and I always use the longest one, thinking that this would bring the airflow further forward for (perhaps) greater ease, but I could be wrong. It's certainly an idea to consider once I've made a final choice.
For a mouthpiece, I now use the original, 1.5g, which I modified on the lathe to gradually bring it where I wanted it. It's similar to the Yeo. but less deep. Very efficient for me. I'll have to make a decision about this too.

I hope Google Translate did a good job!

Fausto

[ghmerrill]

A question, is that a King you see in the photo? I tried an example from the '80s, beautiful and with its period charm.

It's a Chinese pseudo-King 7B ("Schiller", from Laabs Music -- cost me $580, delivered). The first thing I did was to have the stock lead pipe pulled -- even before I played it -- since I knew I wanted to experiment. Surprisingly (for some, at least), the horn is not really bad at all. But the double valve range becomes tedious -- I think primarily because of the size of the rotors.

Yes, I also thought about the leadpipe. I have 4 of them and I always use the longest one, thinking that this would bring the airflow further forward for (perhaps) greater ease, but I could be wrong.

The "received view" is that the longer the pipe, the more "centered" the pitch, and the better it "slots". Shorter pipes have an easier blow, but wider slots. I have found this to be the case. I seem to prefer the easier blow/resonance over the narrowness of the slots/tuning.

For a mouthpiece, I now use the original, 1.5g, which I modified on the lathe to gradually bring it where I wanted it. It's similar to the Yeo. but less deep. Very efficient for me. I'll have to make a decision about this too.

This whole system is complex and changing any component (mouthpiece cup, rim, shank, lead pipe) can have a noticeable (if sometimes subtle) effect. I tried larger DE rims and shanks until it was "too large" -- and then backed off to what I'm using now. I'm reasonably comfortable with a rim from Doug's 110 to 114 and a shank from size 8 to size 10. But the 112 rim/9 shank seems most versatile and best for me.

I hope Google Translate did a good job!

It appears to have done well.

[Pezza]

I don't need a 2nd valve! Tho if I have heaps of Bs I'll pull the tuning slide to E.
Practice them without any valve. When you play them with a valve they'll be much easier.

[harrisonreed]

Without going too far with the question

...but these 3 notes—D, C, and B nat, just above the "pedals," which require the use of the two rotors and more tubing—are they, or should they always be, consistently clear and defined, or sometimes or often (as in my case) I may find it difficult to produce them for possible reasons attributable to:

A - response from horn to horn; the lighter ones seem to respond better

This may or may not be true. I think it has more to do with where the weight and bracing is on the horn.

B - breathiness; different and/or irregular breath delivery; sometimes I feel like it's slowed down

This is why these are called the "money notes" and why bass trombonists get hired. They need to only be "breathy" if you are intentionally playing them that way. Otherwise should be rock solid. At the very least, D and Db should be easy to play even on large tenor. I'm more talking about C and B, and the ability to bridge those down into the pedal range. That's why the pros get paid.

C - difficulty finding the right position and exposure of the lips

Again, "money notes". If they were easy to play ...

B and C, I think, should interact well for best results

Yep

D - shortness of breath; after a good test, the next one is already poor and needs work to improve

Don't underestimate how much work professional bass trombonists have put in. They make it look easy. But it isn't.

[ghmerrill]

D - shortness of breath; after a good test, the next one is already poor and needs work to improve

If you're playing something annotated as "Driving rock" (or something similar), with a heavy bass line below the staff, and at dynamics of f or ff, there's nowhere to hide. Stamina is required, and that comes from some degree of physical conditioning. With advanced age, this does not get easier ... but a regular program of some degree of constant physical conditioning (walking/hiking, running, swimming, playing some sports, etc.) will help. Bass trombone is a pretty "physical" instrument.

[Fausto]

aluable suggestions and information. Thanks!

Pezza
I am intrigued by the slide in E

ghmerrill
What I tried is a King 8b. Very similar, visually.

It's amazing how they manage to produce horns at such a low cost.

Haven't you thought about improving the rotors? I've been lucky, you might be too!

No, I'm not playing anything at the moment, just doing a little maintenance practice.

What you're referring to is "Driving Rock," although I don't know exactly what it is, but I can imagine it. It's a big deal to me right now and maybe forever.

As for the tubes and the mouthpiece, as I said, I need to decide on the horn first. I'll build the house first, then I'll see how to paint it! The mouthpiece, which I modified specifically for me, is certainly the piece that gives me the best response in every register and, all in all, a nicer sound. It's rough and needs to be coated, but the metal smell has disappeared.

harrisonreed
Being able to play well and without too much effort in the pedal area is certainly something for heroes with considerable skill, and rightly so, they have their value, both financially and in terms of respect.

Yes, D and Db aren't too problematic; it's the C and especially the B that require skill and a "human compressor"!

In fact, one of the three horns I liked is quite heavy, so the balance and construction are consistent.

Kbiggs
I searched for a bass method in the area but without success, they advised me to play an 8a below
yes, going down the register the positions change considerably



...

The question I constantly ask myself is: are three notes worth anything from less than 1000 to over 2000 a note, depending on the horn I eventually choose?
The reasons for a possible expense are always personal; spending large sums for a prestigious horn, in my case, is more of a desire than a practical purpose.

I also tried one out of curiosity; I don't know if anyone has ever done it. I have a sound level meter and tried measuring the decibels for individual notes, a method I consider more accurate. In some cases, it seems louder to the ear, depending on the response of the horn being used, but the sound level meter says this isn't the case.

In normal registers, I see that the sound can reach over 115 dB in any situation. In the pedal range, the values ​​drop significantly, reaching 100 dB, with a difference of 2-3 dB from horn to horn. Obviously, the lower it goes, the more it fades.

...hoping that the g translator understood me

Fausto

[ghmerrill]

Haven't you thought about improving the rotors? I've been lucky, you might be too!

I did consider this as a possibility, but it just didn't seem a smart way to go in terms of cost and benefit -- taking a "workable" horn and turning it into a "better workable" horn, but with unpredictable benefit. Looking at potential costs and potential benefits, I finally decided (after about 10 years) to get a really good horn instead, and keep the pseudo-7B as a "backup". I learned a lot from having it and experimenting with it. But the Getzen 1052 is a quantum leap forward.

Yes, D and Db aren't too problematic; it's the C and especially the B that require skill and a "human compressor"!

You also need the full dynamic range for all of those -- from very quiet (e.g., if playing under a vocalist) to "blow the wall down" loud. Don't expect that to happen overnight or with just an equipment change.

For specifically low register exercises, you might want to also look at Arban's "Complete Method for the Tuba" (particularly the early "Fundamentals of Tuba Performance" section), the (easily available without cost, online) "Bass Trombone Scales, Arpeggios & Exercises" from Trinity College London Press, and Chris Sharpe's "Bass Trombone Double Valve Technique" (https://www.csharpeeditions.com/).

Another good source you can use for "exercises", and that is a bit more fun as well, is Joe Tarto's Basic Rhythms and the Art of Improvisation (available in PDF form at https://qpress.ca/product/basic-rhythms ... Xho0DNYlE2).

The reasons for a possible expense are always personal; spending large sums for a prestigious horn, in my case, is more of a desire than a practical purpose.

I was in the same position myself, and finally decided that for the amount of time I spend on it, and the enjoyment, it was worth the expense -- to me. But it can be a difficult choice. The "prestige" I don't care about. But the constant struggle and irritation -- that I'd become convinced weren't simply about my own skill -- finally tipped the scale.

I also tried one out of curiosity; I don't know if anyone has ever done it. I have a sound level meter and tried measuring the decibels for individual notes, a method I consider more accurate. In some cases, it seems louder to the ear, depending on the response of the horn being used, but the sound level meter says this isn't the case.

I have a sound meter as well. It's pretty good at determining sound level -- of either a trombone, a rifle, or a chain saw, etc. But it doesn't (and isn't designed to) hear what the human ear does. Your playing isn't really primarily about sound level, but things like pitch, articulation, and clarity. It can help a lot to record yourself -- once you're convinced that your recorder is playing back what you "really" sound like. But the sound level meter is a red herring. I use a Tascam DR-05 (old model) to record myself -- after spending an absurd amount of time tweaking some settings on it to produce what appears to be my actual sound. A lot of people like the Zoom recorders. One of the (even lower-end -- like the DR-5) models can be very helpful. And you can often get a slightly older model via Ebay at low expense.

[dwcarder]

The question I constantly ask myself is: are three notes worth anything from less than 1000 to over 2000 a note, depending on the horn I eventually choose?

Hi Fausto,

This is the similar to the calculation that I used when I bought a bass trombone. Keeping in mind that I play bass only in community / municipal ensembles, it is very rare to have a B natural written in the parts I have come across over the past 25 or so years. So, I specifically sought out a used single valve bass that can pull to E as adequate for my use, and ended up finding a YBL-321. If you are playing more technical (or more modern) material, you may come to a very different conclusion about your needs. It does not hurt to be pragmatic.

[tbdana]

The question I constantly ask myself is: are three notes worth anything from less than 1000 to over 2000 a note, depending on the horn I eventually choose?
The reasons for a possible expense are always personal; spending large sums for a prestigious horn, in my case, is more of a desire than a practical purpose.

I don't expect a horn to solve all my problems. I just want one that doesn't get in my way.