Bigger horn or deeper mouthpiece?

[Reedman1]

I'm trying to sort out how to get a fuller sound, especially from F3 (4th line in bass clef) down. I don't need an orchestral sound, since I mostly play jazz, but I want a little more heft to my tone in this register. (If you don't think that a beefy low register is necessary or appropriate for jazz, feel free to say so.) I've already tried opening my throat, dropping my jaw, thinking "toe, toe toe" for articulations, slowing my breath, relaxing, etc, but I'm not getting where I want to get.

I play a .508 bore horn with a mouthpiece that's a little deeper than a C cup. I know that a deeper (and sometimes, wider) mouthpiece will emphasize the lower partials and give a fuller sound, but I also know that the size of the resonating chamber - the horn - affects the timbre.

In your experience, which is likely to have a greater effect? A deeper or more voluminous mouthpiece, or a larger bore size?

[MStarke]

Assuming you play e g bigband parts that go into that range, quite normal for 3rd.

I would say this is not primarily an equipment question. 508 bore and deeper than C cup is pretty average and definitely not small.

Practicing simple basics in that range, long tones, slow scales and slurs, volalises like Bordogni studies can help a lot getting better control of the sound you want.

Out of curiosity: How far is your tuning slide out? If you have it out quite a bit, this can (not must!) be a sign that you can overall try to get your "center" lower down.

[hyperbolica]

I would look at it differently. The cheapest/easiest place to start is the mouthpiece. I don't know what you'd call it in Bach nomenclature, but you can use a DE E size cup with a 508 and get a broader sound down low. I'd recommend a mouthpiece you can change modularly and sneak up on a solution without breaking things that already work.

Also, the horn itself is going to make a big difference. For example 3b vs Getzen 3508 vs Shires Michael Davis + vs Yamaha 891z. Of these, I'd test the Shires and the Getzen as the most likely to help. Very different horns.

Next you might think of changing bore, which automatically means a new horn and probably a new mouthpiece. There are some Euro horns like Rath that go to 510 or 512 bore, but otherwise your next stop is 525. An old 78h will make the lower notes rounder, as will a King 3b+, but some will go too far, like Bach 36b, King 607. A Conn 32h will split the difference with the 500/522 bore (this might be a great option for you). There are some modern Yamahas that do the same thing.

We can give you a head start by naming every horn ever made, but in the end you're going to have to try some horns.

[Burgerbob]

It is absolutely possible to have a good, full mid register on a small bore. It’s about meeting the horn where it wants to be played.

[Reedman1]

Assuming you play e g bigband parts that go into that range, quite normal for 3rd.

I would say this is not primarily an equipment question. 508 bore and deeper than C cup is pretty average and definitely not small.

Practicing simple basics in that range, long tones, slow scales and slurs, volalises like Bordogni studies can help a lot getting better control of the sound you want.

Out of curiosity: How far is your tuning slide out? If you have it out quite a bit, this can (not must!) be a sign that you can overall try to get your "center" lower down.

Thanks! My tuning slide is usually out about ½" to ¾".

[Reedman1]

I would look at it differently. The cheapest/easiest place to start is the mouthpiece. I don't know what you'd call it in Bach nomenclature, but you can use a DE E size cup with a 508 and get a broader sound down low. I'd recommend a mouthpiece you can change modularly and sneak up on a solution without breaking things that already work.

Also, the horn itself is going to make a big difference. For example 3b vs Getzen 3508 vs Shires Michael Davis + vs Yamaha 891z. Of these, I'd test the Shires and the Getzen as the most likely to help. Very different horns.

Next you might think of changing bore, which automatically means a new horn and probably a new mouthpiece. There are some Euro horns like Rath that go to 510 or 512 bore, but otherwise your next stop is 525. An old 78h will make the lower notes rounder, as will a King 3b+, but some will go too far, like Bach 36b, King 607. A Conn 32h will split the difference with the 500/522 bore (this might be a great option for you). There are some modern Yamahas that do the same thing.

We can give you a head start by naming every horn ever made, but in the end you're going to have to try some horns.

Thanks for the diagnostic path. I have some mouthpiece ideas to pursue.

As far as a bigger horn, I'm interested in the .500/5.2x dual bore to start. I've listened to clips on YouTube quite a bit - Keith Hilson is a godsend, there. (His 32H clip isn't all that great, though). I like the sounds from the BAC Elliott Mason. I have been completely unable to find clips of the 356r or anything else dual bore. Moving up in size, I really like the sound of the Yamaha 455G, the JP231, and the Y-Fort 260GL, more or less in that order. Of course, the player, the mouthpiece, and other factors affect the timbre.

One consideration is that I'm most likely going to replace the outer slide with a Butler CF. I'd be reluctant to do that to a classic like the 32H, and I don't really want to get a second slide for it.

If I win the lottery, then I'd just get a Butler C6, which sounds fuller than my JJ. But I could spend more than the price of a trombone trying to win that...

[Reedman1]

It is absolutely possible to have a good, full mid register on a small bore. It’s about meeting the horn where it wants to be played.

Can you elaborate? Do you mean a different mouthpiece, a different approach, both...?
I do already have a nice sound - I get compliments on it. But I still want it fuller - not darker, which is sort of woofy to me. Fatter. Bigger.

[Reedman1]

Assuming you play e g bigband parts that go into that range, quite normal for 3rd.

I would say this is not primarily an equipment question. 508 bore and deeper than C cup is pretty average and definitely not small.

Practicing simple basics in that range, long tones, slow scales and slurs, volalises like Bordogni studies can help a lot getting better control of the sound you want.

Out of curiosity: How far is your tuning slide out? If you have it out quite a bit, this can (not must!) be a sign that you can overall try to get your "center" lower down.

Thanks! My tuning slide is usually out about ½" to ¾". PS I spend a good 15 minutes or more per day in false pedals, and always start my practice with long tones. Altissimo register workouts seem to beef up the low register, too.

[Doug Elliott]

Learn the details of where your chops and tongue need to be in that range. Maybe mouthpiece, but not necessarily.
It's entirely possible to get a fat sound in that range on a small horn. It's in the details.
MOST players have the same issue to a degree, regardless of the horn size, even on bass.
I can help with that if you want to do a short lesson.

[Reedman1]

Learn the details of where your chops and tongue need to be in that range. Maybe mouthpiece, but not necessarily.
It's entirely possible to get a fat sound in that range on a small horn. It's in the details.
MOST players have the same issue to a degree, regardless of the horn size, even on bass.
I can help with that if you want to do a short lesson.

OK, I’ll get in touch. Thanks!

[Burgerbob]

Can you elaborate? Do you mean a different mouthpiece, a different approach, both...?
I do already have a nice sound - I get compliments on it. But I still want it fuller - not darker, which is sort of woofy to me. Fatter. Bigger.

Just a different approach, assuming your mouthpiece is a good match for you. I get a great mid and low register out of my Doug Elliot C+ cup on a .500.

It is so, so easy to overfund/overpressure the air in that register on any trombone, but especially the smaller ones- that register will still come out, but it won't resonate or respond quickly or have that fat, easy characteristic. I say this from experience, having forced it for a long time (and thought I was doing it right!). It's really about approach and letting the horn tell you what it needs, rather than forcing the issue.

[Reedman1]

Can you elaborate? Do you mean a different mouthpiece, a different approach, both...?
I do already have a nice sound - I get compliments on it. But I still want it fuller - not darker, which is sort of woofy to me. Fatter. Bigger.

Just a different approach, assuming your mouthpiece is a good match for you. I get a great mid and low register out of my Doug Elliot C+ cup on a .500.

It is so, so easy to overfund/overpressure the air in that register on any trombone, but especially the smaller ones- that register will still come out, but it won't resonate or respond quickly or have that fat, easy characteristic. I say this from experience, having forced it for a long time (and thought I was doing it right!). It's really about approach and letting the horn tell you what it needs, rather than forcing the issue.

Thank you! And also sincere thanks for your many enlightening YouTube videos. I particularly liked the one about slides.

[WGWTR180]

I'm thinking both will do the trick. You're either in or you're out. LOL

[imsevimse]

I'm thinking both will do the trick. You're either in or you're out. LOL

Every change of equipment will have effect. Change of bore, mouthpiece and/or mouthpipe, horn with TIS or TIB. As many said it is possible to get a full fat sound on a small mouthpiece and a small trombone. I have a historical record with Arthur Pryor I listened to the other day. The low register and the pedals he demonstrated on that small bore with that small mouthpiece and instrument was astonishing. What's interesting is his sound did come through even on that bad recording technology they had back in the days (1900-1905).

I list some thoughts that I apply to my own playing. As Doug said most players have that kind of problem more or less below F3 and need to address it at some time in their career. If I had a student with this problem I would first check if it is an issue with the technique before I would consider any change of the gear.

My list. Helps notes and sound in any register:
1. Make sure you do not use much mouthpiece pressure, especially not in the low register. Always use as little as possible.
2. The emboushure in the low register need to work so it seals with an active aparture but relaxed where it needs to vibrate. Keep mouthcorners firm and avoid big movements in the jaw. Easy said but might be very difficult to achieve with willpower if you are used too play with a lot of tensions in your lips and movements in your mouthcorners. Needs a lot of practice to find that balance. Blow long notes and look in the mirror.
3. For some people (like me) It help to develop a deaper sound to push the tuningslide all the way in and then strive to play as low on the pitch as you dare to find the optimal response. After practicing a lot like this my sound darkened. I think to play "as low as I dare" on the pitch is what helped me the most with my sound over all.
4. Be sure you put the slide where you get the maximum resonance so you do not get into the practice of bending notes in tune. Use the slide and not lips to do all necessary micro corrections.
5. Do not force the sound. Keep throat open and your chest high. Straight neck and as upright position as possible.
6. Blow slow and warm air in the low register. The sound should always be created with least possible effort.
7. If you can do it use factitous notes to discover your optimal emboushure in the low register.

If you tried all this then I would start experiment with mouthpiece and then first step would be a deeper cup.

/Tom

[Reedman1]

I'm thinking both will do the trick. You're either in or you're out. LOL

Every change of equipment will have effect. Change of bore, mouthpiece and/or mouthpipe, horn with TIS or TIB. As many said it is possible to get a full fat sound on a small mouthpiece and a small trombone. I have a historical record with Arthur Pryor I listened to the other day. The low register and the pedals he demonstrated on that small bore with that small mouthpiece and instrument was astonishing. What's interesting is his sound did come through even on that bad recording technology they had back in the days (1900-1905).

I list some thoughts that I apply to my own playing. As Doug said most players have that kind of problem more or less below F3 and need to address it at some time in their career. If I had a student with this problem I would first check if it is an issue with the technique before I would consider any change of the gear.

My list. Helps notes and sound in any register:
1. Make sure you do not use much mouthpiece pressure, especially not in the low register. Always use as little as possible.
2. The emboushure in the low register need to work so it seals with an active aparture but relaxed where it needs to vibrate. Keep mouthcorners firm and avoid big movements in the jaw. Easy said but might be very difficult to achieve with willpower if you are used too play with a lot of tensions in your lips and movements in your mouthcorners. Needs a lot of practice to find that balance. Blow long notes and look in the mirror.
3. For some people (like me) It help to develop a deaper sound to push the tuningslide all the way in and then strive to play as low on the pitch as you dare to find the optimal response. After practicing a lot like this my sound darkened. I think to play "as low as I dare" on the pitch is what helped me the most with my sound over all.
4. Be sure you put the slide where you get the maximum resonance so you do not get into the practice of bending notes in tune. Use the slide and not lips to do all necessary micro corrections.
5. Do not force the sound. Keep throat open and your chest high. Straight neck and as upright position as possible.
6. Blow slow and warm air in the low register. The sound should always be created with least possible effort.
7. If you can do it use factitous notes to discover your optimal emboushure in the low register.

If you tried all this then I would start experiment with mouthpiece and then first step would be a deeper cup.

/Tom

Thanks - those are all good advice.
I’ll follow up in a separate reply.

[Reedman1]

So I had a lesson with Doug, who helped me with his careful observation and kind advice.

His advice, which I regard as specific to me, was:
1. Find the sweet spot for each important note (e.g, the notes of a 1st position Bb arpeggio).
2. Free-buzz, with an airy sound, and then bring the horn to my face while continuing to buzz.
3. Move the horn (very slightly) to meet the sweet spot for each note in a very slow arpeggio in a limited range.
4. Use the tongue (the oral cavity) to change partials and shape tone.
5. Practice starting the arpeggio on different notes of the chord,
6. For me, because I’ve already worked a lot on false pedals, stop working on false pedals a for a while.
7.In general, keep the face still and move the horn.
8. Use more mouthpiece pressure (I try not to use too much)
9. “This is not the only way to play trombone - there are others - but this is the most efficient.”
10. “A wider mouthpiece can help.”

I will just say, after playing a LOT of mouthpieces, I zeroed in on some specs that work well for me. I have a little room for a wider opening and maybe a wider throat/shank, but I am adamant that I am not willing to spend my remaining years fighting a big mouthpiece. My current daily player is a custom piece that I like very much. It’s a bit small, with a slightly narrow throat, but sounds great and lets me get around fast. And it’s comfortable. I may still opt for something larger eventually, but not until I have done my assigned homework.

That still leaves open the questions of whether I want the sound of a bigger horn (medium bore) in a jazz context; whether some people play medium bore for solo work, and why. It also raises the question of what are the trade offs for playing a particular bore size.

[imsevimse]

Every change of equipment will have effect. Change of bore, mouthpiece and/or mouthpipe, horn with TIS or TIB. As many said it is possible to get a full fat sound on a small mouthpiece and a small trombone. I have a historical record with Arthur Pryor I listened to the other day. The low register and the pedals he demonstrated on that small bore with that small mouthpiece and instrument was astonishing. What's interesting is his sound did come through even on that bad recording technology they had back in the days (1900-1905).

I list some thoughts that I apply to my own playing. As Doug said most players have that kind of problem more or less below F3 and need to address it at some time in their career. If I had a student with this problem I would first check if it is an issue with the technique before I would consider any change of the gear.

My list. Helps notes and sound in any register:
1. Make sure you do not use much mouthpiece pressure, especially not in the low register. Always use as little as possible.
2. The emboushure in the low register need to work so it seals with an active aparture but relaxed where it needs to vibrate. Keep mouthcorners firm and avoid big movements in the jaw. Easy said but might be very difficult to achieve with willpower if you are used too play with a lot of tensions in your lips and movements in your mouthcorners. Needs a lot of practice to find that balance. Blow long notes and look in the mirror.
3. For some people (like me) It help to develop a deaper sound to push the tuningslide all the way in and then strive to play as low on the pitch as you dare to find the optimal response. After practicing a lot like this my sound darkened. I think to play "as low as I dare" on the pitch is what helped me the most with my sound over all.
4. Be sure you put the slide where you get the maximum resonance so you do not get into the practice of bending notes in tune. Use the slide and not lips to do all necessary micro corrections.
5. Do not force the sound. Keep throat open and your chest high. Straight neck and as upright position as possible.
6. Blow slow and warm air in the low register. The sound should always be created with least possible effort.
7. If you can do it use factitous notes to discover your optimal emboushure in the low register.

If you tried all this then I would start experiment with mouthpiece and then first step would be a deeper cup.

/Tom

Thanks - those are all good advice.
I’ll follow up in a separate reply.

Thanks

Besides the list you need to have something to play and practice on. This is the way I practice my low range. I took inspiration of James Markey. If I have a small bore with f-trigger I do them like he does them. If I have no trigger I do some of them and adjust. I use factitious notes where I can. I have found at least three of these videos. These are good if you need to learn the trigger notes but also if you need to learn the low register better in general.

See this video:

[Reedman1]

Thanks - those are all good advice.
I’ll follow up in a separate reply.

Thanks

Besides the list you need to have something to play and practice on. This is the way I practice my low range. I took inspiration of James Markey. If I have a small bore with f-trigger I do them like he does them. If I have no trigger I do some of them and adjust. I use actitious notes where I can. I have found at least three of these videos. These are good if you need to learn the trigger notes but also if you need to learn the low register vetter in general.

See this video:

Thanks for the video. When I progress a little more with Doug’s suggestions, I will try this - though probably not at such great length, as I just don’t have the time.
BTW “factitious notes”… are you trying to translate the Swedish term for false pedals into English?

[Olofson]

Factitious tones, also known as false tones or falset tones, are pitches produced on a trombone by a skilled player's embouchure and airflow alone, without using the standard slide positions or trigger valves to alter the air column length. While not the typical way to produce these notes, they fill gaps in the natural harmonic series and are essential for playing low notes on single-trigger or straight trombones where slide positions might be too far for fast passages. I in Sweden we say "fake tones". I heard lots names for those tones. But never realy heard "false pedals" before. Is that coming from trumpet talk?

[Reedman1]

Factitious tones, also known as false tones or falset tones, are pitches produced on a trombone by a skilled player's embouchure and airflow alone, without using the standard slide positions or trigger valves to alter the air column length. While not the typical way to produce these notes, they fill gaps in the natural harmonic series and are essential for playing low notes on single-trigger or straight trombones where slide positions might be too far for fast passages. I in Sweden we say "fake tones". I heard lots names for those tones. But never realy heard "false pedals" before. Is that coming from trumpet talk?

We’re even - “factitious” is an unusual word in English. We do have fictitious, which is the same as fictional. I think it would equate to fiktiv.

In English, at least in America, we refer to pitches below the normal range of the instrument as pedals (or pedal tones) if they fall on a naturally occurring harmonic, and false pedals if they are forced to sound by lipping or airflow tricks. I think if you called them false tones most trombonists would understand.

When I played trumpet, I was never able to produce false pedals. On trombone, I’m getting pretty comfortable with them.

I think the term “pedals” comes from the pipe organ, on which contrabass notes are played with the feet on pedals.

[AtomicClock]

In English, at least in America, we refer to pitches below the normal range of the instrument as pedals (or pedal tones) if they fall on a naturally occurring harmonic, and false pedals if they are forced to sound by lipping or airflow tricks.

I think that perspective is limited to trumpet. On trombone (in English, in America), the pedals are the fundamental pitches, and the false (falset/etc.) tones are the bent pitches that fill in the gap.

Pedals really pop on the low brass instruments, but are hard to play on the trumpet, so I think those guys conflate the two concepts.

[Pezza]

Practice!
I go to a pedal F on a Bach 12 with a 7Cish mouthpiece! From the low E to pedal Bb takes some practice.

[Reedman1]

In English, at least in America, we refer to pitches below the normal range of the instrument as pedals (or pedal tones) if they fall on a naturally occurring harmonic, and false pedals if they are forced to sound by lipping or airflow tricks.

I think that perspective is limited to trumpet. On trombone (in English, in America), the pedals are the fundamental pitches, and the false (falset/etc.) tones are the bent pitches that fill in the gap.

Pedals really pop on the low brass instruments, but are hard to play on the trumpet, so I think those guys conflate the two concepts.

Whatever. You knew what I meant, right? Pitches from Eb2 on downwards.

[Reedman1]

Practice!
I go to a pedal F on a Bach 12 with a 7Cish mouthpiece! From the low E to pedal Bb takes some practice.

I've been practicing false pedals, or *ahem* false tones for quite a while, and I'm pretty solid and can play music down to G an octave below the bass clef on my .508 Butler JJ with a mouthpiece around a 6 ¾ size. Recently I actually made recognizable pitches down to a 5th below that. But that doesn't help with the full, fat, large, round tone in the normal low register.

[Pezza]

Maybe you're just not supposed to have a phat bottom register!
Practising the "false" tones, no trigger, will improve the sound of those notes with a trigger and generally open up your sound.
I can't get that sweet, singing high jazz tone, no matter what equipment I use. I can play the notes, but the sound never quite fits. Same as I can't get a good baritone sound, it always sounds too euphonium like, or if loud too trombone like.

[Reedman1]

Maybe you're just not supposed to have a phat bottom register!
Practising the "false" tones, no trigger, will improve the sound of those notes with a trigger and generally open up your sound.
I can't get that sweet, singing high jazz tone, no matter what equipment I use. I can play the notes, but the sound never quite fits. Same as I can't get a good baritone sound, it always sounds too euphonium like, or if loud too trombone like.

My horn is like a carbon fiber 3B - it doesn’t have a trigger.
I want a fat low register. If I didn’t care about it, I’d play something smaller.
Fortunately Doug Elliott’s guidance is paying off, and I’m already hearing some improvement in slightly under a week.
But I may still see if there’s a way to get a still fatter sound with a slightly bigger mouthpiece, and try a bigger bone. When I played bari sax, I had a full, gorgeous tone throughout all registers. That’s what I want, even in a jazz context.

[johntarr]

So I had a lesson with Doug, who helped me with his careful observation and kind advice.

10. “A wider mouthpiece can help.”

I will just say, after playing a LOT of mouthpieces, I zeroed in on some specs that work well for me. I have a little room for a wider opening and maybe a wider throat/shank, but I am adamant that I am not willing to spend my remaining years fighting a big mouthpiece. My current daily player is a custom piece that I like very much. It’s a bit small, with a slightly narrow throat, but sounds great and lets me get around fast. And it’s comfortable. I may still opt for something larger eventually, but not until I have done my assigned homework.

That still leaves open the questions of whether I want the sound of a bigger horn (medium bore) in a jazz context; whether some people play medium bore for solo work, and why. It also raises the question of what are the trade offs for playing a particular bore size.

I thought I had my mouthpiece dialed in until I had a lesson with Doug. He recommended a much wider rim and his XT series. I thought that it would be too big because the high range wasn’t one of my strengths. With the wider rim, which I use from large bore to alto, I have improved my high range, even as I am getting older. Also, I don’t find that there’s a huge difference in my high range between all of my horns and in some way, the large bore is the easiest. That is partly because it’s the horn I play the most.

Just another opinion.