Lung capacity and bore size

[RobL]

I'm curious if teachers more experienced than I have noticed any general correlation between lung capacity and the optimal bore size for tenor. I have a college first year student who is around 5' tall, and has been playing a .547 since 7th grade(!). This student is limited in sound volume and projection, and I plan to test lung capacity today. I'm interested in seeing how the student sounds on a .525, but am not located close to music stores, so I'm starting by inquiring of the experience of this community. I know lung capacity doesn't always correlate to height, how one uses air is a big part of the equation, and what horn is right for a person varies by the individual. But I'd like to know if people have noticed general correlations. Thanks.

[Savio]

I don't think lung capacity is the clue about bore size. My thoughts are more about how to use the air we have. Then I have to say I don't agree with all that says use as much air as possibly. I would nearly say; (to make a little fire and discussion in the forum ) Use as little as possible....

We don't have to use so much. We just have to use enough to get a decent sound. Don't force it. I think the clue about air is never stop the flow.

Leif

[hyperbolica]

I have this odd idea that the lung capacity line crosses the bore size line somewhere between 508 and 525. That is to say the size instrument on which you can play a phrase as long as you can hold your breath. If you were to just take a breath like you would to play and then just hold your breath, that will last, say X seconds. But the length of time you can play before needing a breath is say Y seconds. Ideally X = Y. On bass bone X >> Y (so you seem to be constantly sucking breaths). I find that on 508 bore I can play until I run out of oxygen, but on 525 I sometimes run out of air before I run out of oxygen, if that makes any sense. It would be interesting how that measures up with your lung capacity devices.

Remember that some of the greatest and loudest low brass players have been small. Alan Ostrander, Dave Taylor, Norman Bolter...

[Burgerbob]

Efficiency is all that matters in the end.

[Savio]

Efficiency is all that matters in the end.

Yes, in fact it is. Air depends on how you are technically.

[cmccain]

If lung capacity were directly correlated with which instrument best fit someone, nobody would primarily play tuba. Oversimplifying, I know, but in seriousness playing tuba has definitely changed my perspective on bore size. I do feel my lungs emptying faster on tuba than I do on bass trombone, but also, when playing below the staff, I have an easier time making the tuba sound decent on a low air tank than I do on bass trombone in the same register. And, depending on the dynamics, this means that I can sometimes actually play longer phrases on tuba than on bass trombone, though this is really only true in the double-trigger and pedal ranges, where bass trombone requires a little more pressure to get the notes to speak. Sort of similar to what Hyperbolica said about "running out of air before running out of oxygen."

My point being, I agree with those saying lung capacity isn't the most important metric here. And to add to all of that, it's worth mentioning that lung capacity is variable. I grew up with bad asthma and went through middle school band breathing twice as often as everyone else. Years of daily practice, years of off-and-on daily cardio, more years of off-and-on yoga and breathing exercises, and now I breathe only slightly more often than the others in my group.

[robcat2075]

First, I'll naively note that that the difference in volume between a 9 foot cylinder of .525 bore and one of .547 bore is only a hair over 2 cubic inches. Of course the geometry of the bell flare complicates this comparison but I suspect that the difference in internal volume between two such trombones is trivial in comparison to the full lung capacity of even a merely 5-foot college student.


Next i shall naively note that if bore v. lung capacity made a decisive determination for a normal human between using a .525 and .547 trombone... what sort of monster would you have to find to play a euphonioum or tuba?


"Limited in sound volume and projection" isn't very much to go on but I'll next naively guess the student sounds like I did up through the first two years of high school... a congested and un-resonant sound... with the cause being the same: tonguing with the wrong vowel.

By that, i mean tonguing with "tuh" or "too" as taught in many beginning band method books. That is a disaster for sound. i know so because it was for me.

We imagine that tonguing is about the start of the note but that "uh" or "oo" that follows the "t" is shaping the airway and shaping the sound.


Get your student tonguing with "tah" for mid-range notes around G at the top of the staff. The tongue shape for the "ah" vowel makes for a far more optimal airway shape for such notes.

When that is working, there are other vowels for other ranges. But never "too".


It's possible I'm wrong - I'm sure someone will rush in to insist I am - but if your student sounds like I sounded... it's the vowels.

[hyperbolica]

Trumpet players argue that bore size doesn't matter, but trombone players are very conscious of it. I think this is because any trumpet you play, you run out of oxygen before you run out of air - you can play long phrases on any trumpet.

This isn't true with trombones because that air/oxygen line goes right through the tbone bore sizes. On a 485 bore tbone you might have to expel air at the end of a phrase just to take in new air (like trumpet players), but on bass bone, you've blown out a lungful in less time than you could hold your breath.

Efficiency is great, but it just moves the air/oxygen line up or down slightly, it doesn't move it out of range. . But the fact that it cuts through the trombone bore range is why trombone players and trombone players look at bore differently.

Play bass (or tuba) for 2 weeks, and then pick up a Bach 6. Or the other way around. Phrase length is massively different.

[harrisonreed]

Bore size correlates to the instrument you're playing, not the lung capacity you happen to have. Nobody plays a .525 tuba.

[AndrewMeronek]

I think that the actual air volume that you exhale during playing matters very little on the actual bore size, and matters a lot on how efficient your buzz is, and on the volume, and on the pitch. To the point that If you find someone with reasonably good chops on both trumpet and trombone, if they play the same literal pitch (for example, low C on trumpet and middle B-flat on trombone) at the same volume, they probably would be able to hold the note about the same amount of time.

[harrisonreed]

The .525 medium bore = efficient .547 large bore concept is a fallacy. If that were really the case, everyone would play the smallest possible bore that was made. They don't sound or play the same. You gotta pick the instrument that makes the sound you need. Yes the feedback and "feel" is important, but honestly the alto is the best / easiest horn "feel" wise for me, and I have a very large lung capacity. But I'm rarely grabbing for it unless it's called for.

[dwcarder]

My cornet's bore is .484. It feels a world apart from my small bore trombone. Different mouthpiece throat, leadpipes, etc, and I perceive a different embouchure aperture. I would think there's too many variables to do a meaningful comparison, but I'll have to challenge my friend sometime to have a battle between my 18A and his 18H (same bore!). My guess is we would both run out of oxygen.

[hyperbolica]

If we go back to the original question...

I'm curious if teachers more experienced than I have noticed any general correlation between lung capacity and the optimal bore size for tenor.

I'm not a teacher, but I've never seen anyone (but maybe me) sit with a set of different bore instruments to figure out which was "optimal". You usually get an instrument and try to learn to play it. I played 547 in I think 6th grade, and it was FAR from optimal. But my parents or someone got the idea in their head that 547 was the "professional" bore, and they wanted me to play that. I grew into it, but it took years.

I have a college first year student who is around 5' tall, and has been playing a .547 since 7th grade(!). This student is limited in sound volume and projection, and I plan to test lung capacity today. I'm interested in seeing how the student sounds on a .525, but am not located close to music stores, so I'm starting by inquiring of the experience of this community. I know lung capacity doesn't always correlate to height, how one uses air is a big part of the equation, and what horn is right for a person varies by the individual. But I'd like to know if people have noticed general correlations. Thanks.

There are a lot of moving parts. Different models of instruments play/sound/feel different. Different players have different chops. Leadpipes and mouthpieces will change how things work. Embouchure efficiency is of course important, but show me a measure for that... It's the kind of thing that takes a lot of time and good direction to develop.

And then there's age and even weight, both of which really effect air capacity. But your student shouldn't have these problems.

Trombone bore does affect your capacity to play long tones or phrases. It might not on trumpet, because on trumpet the limiting factor is oxygen, the same for small bore trombone. But on trombone, the limiting factor becomes air capacity above a certain bore size, and I'd imagine that bore size is somewhat different for each individual. I would venture that on average, the bore size where the transition happens is around or slightly below 525. This is based on my own playing - ~60 year old, over weight, 5'8" guy who has been playing for ~45 years.

[BPBasso]

... I plan to test lung capacity today. ...

I'm curious. What were the results of the capacity test?

[RobL]

~3.6L

[hyperbolica]

Yeah, that's low. Average for female adults is 4-6. Even if efficiency is high, there's a big disadvantage. Maybe try a dual bore 500/525 like the Yamaha 456 which still has a valve and is probably the biggest sounding small horn. You can find them on eBay in decent shape now and then.