Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

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JTeagarden
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Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

I have migrated slowly over time to playing primarily bass trombone: it's just plain easier for me than tenor, more room for my IIIA embouchure (as Doug Elliott reminds me).

I was playing a DE 109, and then a DE 112, and recently tried and like what I hear from a Rath 1-1/4 W I had forgotten I even had: inner rim is less sharp than the DE MPs, and the inner rim diameter seems bigger (hard to measure).

Which got me thinking: How big is too big, and when will I know? Thus far, I have no endurance, range (same as on tenor), response or intonation issues with the Rath piece, but would like the low register to speak better: I cannot tongue quickly and cleanly below low Db. It speaks more cleanly than the DE 112 I assume just because of a bigger inner rim diameter.

I don't think equipment solves everything, but I also know it can help: Since the Rath isn't overwhelming, I am wondering whether going even bigger might make low-range articulations easier? I see a lot more low C eighth notes than I see high Bbs, this is for certain.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by Burgerbob »

That’s probably big enough, with some practice in the low register.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by BGuttman »

What I have learned is "too big":

1. Your upper register goes flat.
2. Upper range disappears.
3. You tire quickly.
4. The sound gets "tubby" (think "tuba on a stick").

Sometimes you can do some exercises to alleviate these problems. But if the exercises don't help you know you're too big.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

The Rath MP is definitely not too big under those criteria, but it gets hard to cleanly tongue Low C and B natural eigth notes (say at quarter note = 120) more than 10 minutes into a practice session, and no amount of "pivoting" (in the Reinhardt sense) or changing of where I tongue is making a dent these days.

Not sure if I'm aspiring to something that doesn't rear its head that often, but moving lines involving short low Cs and B naturals are a minefield for me, it clears up substantially at low Db and above.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by Burgerbob »

To be honest, there are just better pieces than that one but in a similar size regime.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

Burgerbob wrote: Thu Sep 18, 2025 8:53 am To be honest, there are just better pieces than that one but in a similar size regime.
The only advantage to the Rath MP is that I happened to have one! What would you suggest trying out?
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by blast »

There may be 'better' pieces out there, but finding what works for your face and your instrument is not easy. The Rath has quite a rounded inner rim and there lies your challenge in the low register. Working at it will do no harm. A thinner rim may well help, but your face may just work on the thicker rim. A real Minick L is nice. You need to try each mouthpiece that interests ...every example is different. JK does some good stuff too. Happy hunting.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

Thanks, I'll work at it, it works fine at this point in all other regards. I live in a kind of musical "no man's land" these days which makes trying out different MPs difficult/expensive.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by Burgerbob »

Definitely work on it. The wide rims do take an advanced approach to really work, IMO. If you keep butting your head against the wall, markey 85 or 87 is a good direction.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by GabrielRice »

Back when I was playing Laskey mouthpieces and corresponding with Scott, he commented something about wide, rounded rims "locking" the lips in place and making response difficult when changing registers. Love them or hate them, the Laskey 93D and 95D don't fight you for response.

Anyway, I'm with Aidan that there are better options in that size range - two of them are the Laskey 85MD and the Griego Markey 85, which is close to it in concept but with some excellent design tweaks; the Markey 87 is a touch bigger and IMO the best mouthpiece in the Markey line. Another suggestion I would have is to try upping the rim size to 113 in Doug's system (I've even seen a 112.5) and also trying a switch from the LB series to the XB.

Part of the problem with the bass trombone in general is that we have a lot of room for error with a big mouthpiece...until we don't. And where we don't have room for error is when both valves are down. Why do you think bass trombones and mouthpieces got bigger and bigger and bigger after the second valve became standard issue? I think it was always about increasing the margin for error, making it easier to force the sound to happen when the instrument is at its longest and therefore most resistant. Thayer valves, dual bore slides, removing the leadpipes...it all happened to reduce resistance and make it possible to get those notes to speak by sheer force of air.

That method never worked well for me. I'm not a small guy but I'm not a particularly big or athletic guy either, and I do not have air to spare. Fortunately, bass trombone designs have continued to evolve, and we now have options that respond quite evenly without having to move 4 liters of air per second. I'm talking about beautifully, carefully designed rotary valves, precision machining of mouthpieces whose designs are worlds more efficient than at least the biggest pieces from Bach and Schilke, etc. And while we're at it, axial valves from Shires, Edwards, and maybe others that seal much better and have more reliable action than the older examples (as long as they are well cared for, which unfortunately is not often the case).


And for non-equipment practice strategy solutions, practice all your lip slurs all the way through the valve combinations. Start with 3 note slurs between the 2nd and 4th partials but extend to 5, 6, 7, 8 note slurs, all the way up and down, challenging the speed and flexibility, while keeping one and two valves down. Adjust the handslide for the tuning of the partials and strive for just as much evenness and resonance as you get on the open horn. You won't quite get there in all probability, but working towards it will improve your response with the valves down significantly. You will also learn just how much air you need to have in your body to support the sound and response when the instrument is that long. I visualize it like sitting on an exercise ball - you need to keep it inflated or you just fall off.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by Kbiggs »

+1 Gabe, Chris, Aidan
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by hyperbolica »

I don't know anything about anything, but I have been through a search like yours for a bass bone mouthpiece. One thing I noticed was that I started tending toward V-ish mouthpieces. Doug's stuff is somewhat V-ish. I started around 1.5 ish. Faxx 1.5. Then Ferguson V and L (you might try the Ferguson L if you like the 1.25s). Denis Wick 1AL. And I did use one of Doug's LB K then an XB K. Then I moved back to MB 109 J. With a little discipline, that would work.

The mpieces that sounded like they worked were all in the 1.25 range. But my lower lip got tired quickly, and the sound is just nasty to my ear. The pieces that seemed to work for an entire practice session or rehearsal tended to be in the 1.5 range. The DE stuff came closest of all that, and I was able to settle back to the MB J. So If you're going DE, I'd figure out what rim size you like (109-112 maybe) and then get the biggest series that fits that size.

After playing the DE MB J for a while and feeling that there was still some room for improvement, I got a Curry 1.5D and a 2D. I still use DE stuff for all my tenors, but for bass the Curry just edges him out a little bit. Curry is more V shaped, and I can get a clearer sound and lower notes on a 1.5D. For general bass bone playing, the 2D is good, but for stuff under the staff, the 1.5D is the ticket. I've been trying to have the discipline to play with the 2D. Unless I really need to rip a pedal F.

I'm not sure what my problem is, but I'm trying to make a bass feel like a tenor, but still be able to rip pedal F. It's not really working, and it's kind of mangling my tenor chops without benefitting my bass chops. Might be time to switch to dulcimer. But the Curry stuff is definitely helping me feel better about my bass playing.

Hardware doesn't solve problems, but sometimes it takes time to find the right stuff that at least doesn't cause problems.
Last edited by hyperbolica on Thu Sep 18, 2025 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

I realize I need to be realistic in what 45 minutes to an hour of daily practice can achieve. In light of my current investment, I'm doing pretty well, sound and response are generally good, but making low C and lower speak reliably and more like the rest of my useful range is my aim, and given my lack of much progress in this area, coupled with realizing the bigger my MP, the easier for me to play, made me think maybe equipment is at least a part of it...

I have always preferred the comfort of a more rounded inner rim (compared to Doug's standard rims), but have always sacrificed something important for that comfort, the Rath at least has no obvious shortcomings vis-a-vis the Elliott 112, and more encouraging to me, I don't have the physical "Groundhog Day" sensation when I start practicing it, like I have to relearn how to play it all over again, so I assumed maybe I was onto something.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by tbonesullivan »

This is always the question. I always see a lot of Doug Yeo mouthpieces in the wild, and that is honestly, for me, a HUGE mouthpiece in terms of volume. It's got a large rim size, yes, but it's the huge volume and larger throat that really make it a beast, and honestly I think it's almost too big for most people. It was designed for a top class professional bass trombonist at the peak of his game, using a somewhat "different" trombone. Those who I know who play it love that it "doesn't hold them back" when they want to dump as much air as humanly possible into the horn.

On the other hand I have a friend who rips out low pedal Fs on a Greg Black 1 1/2G. I don't think it's got a larger than standard throat. The late great Phil Teele also ripped out pedal notes on much smaller equipment than a lot of people use today.

I've tried some huge mouthpieces, and guess what, I didn't have an instantly better pedal range. In fact it might have gotten worse.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by harrisonreed »

It's never big enough. They need the Bach -1 3/4 G

(Read, Bach negative one and three quarters gee)

Specs:

Rim ID: 1.9987"
Rim shape: flat, very thin
Cup depth: unexplored/unk
Alpha angle: 90⁰ cliff
Throat diameter: .496"
Backbore: straight cylinder

Description:
Plumb the depths of the lower register and empty your lungs on every note with the {product name here}. Let the C below the staff sit where it is supposed to be, securely in the altissimo register. Quadruple pedals guaranteed to speak (though beyond the threshold of human hearing) for nearly half-a-second.

Testimonial:
"Never before have I experienced this untethered freedom in my playing! The atom thick width of the rim on my face is imperceptible -- It's almost as if my entire head is inside the mouthpiece!!"
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by bwilliams »

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Sep 18, 2025 2:41 pm The atom thick width of the rim on my face is imperceptible -- It's almost as if my entire head is inside the mouthpiece!!"
:lol:
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JohnL »

It's only too big if you can't climb back out of it without assistance.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by Matt K »

For me, it's a matter of balancing the other types of playing I'm doing. If I'm doing a lot of tenor, then I tend to gravitate towards smaller. If I'm doing a ton of bass, it eventually feels small, and I wind up liking something closer to an LB114. I don't go particularly deep though, the deepest thing I even own at the moment is an "L" cup and I almost always use an "I" or maybe a "J" and only break out the "L" if I'm playing really low stuff consistently.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by Pezza »

I got suckered into the bigger is better idea for years.
I now play bass on a 1 1/2Gish, euph on a 3Gish, large tenor on a 5Gish, medium tenor on a 6 1/2ALish & small tenor on a 7Cish.
Bigger isn't always better!
Am I a trombone player who plays euphonium, or a euphonium player who plays trombone? :idk:
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Facial structure and embouchure type play a role in what's "big enough" or "too big."
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by dukesboneman »

Finding a good Bass Mouthpiece was difficult for me.
Thankfully this forum exists and we are always buying and selling mouthpieces.
I started with a Schilke 58 - felt good , not too big . Good upper range and the low range took some work
then came the Schilke 59 - great low range. lost some security in the upper range and it felt thinner
NEXT - a Bach 1 1/2GM was recommended to me. sounded good but the rim was not comfy at all
Picked up a used Ferguson V. YUCK !! super thin construction, extra light weight and didn`t sound good. Looked nice though.
Tried a friends Doug Yeo piece. and a Schilke 60 - I couldn`t even get a sound out of the horn at first. WAYYYY tooooo big ! Glad I didn`t invest in one of those.
Then I was at a Music Educators Conference and Greg Black was there. Never saw any of his mouthpieces before.
I got talking to him and tried a couple but nothing rang my bell. then he comes up to me with a mouthpiece. Try this and don`t look at it. put it in the horn and BOOM. nice sound, Solid feel from high Bb down to pedal F . Low range felt great. it was (and still is) a 1 3/8GM. Works for me. Sold all the other bass pieces .
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by sf105 »

Several of the top UK players use a 2G or equivalent and sound great. I get a pretty good response out of a Symington. But it does take a while to adjust.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by BPBasso »

Doug Elliott wrote: Fri Sep 19, 2025 8:57 pm Facial structure and embouchure type play a role in what's "big enough" or "too big."
What are common signs one might need to change to a larger mouthpiece?
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by Doug Elliott »

Bigger inside diameter, deeper cups, and larger throat or backbore all make it easier to navigate the extreme low range. They don't necessarily make high range harder - but if they do, you went too far.

If you have already spent a significant amount of time on "smaller" sizes (among the wide range of available bass trombone sizes) and you are still hitting a roadblock, it may be time to try something bigger. I'll say it again: if it messes up your high range (or endurance) it's too big for you. Or something about it is too big for you, not necessarily just the inner diameter.

Some players (relating to embouchure type) should stay on relatively small-to-medium sizes because they seriously lose efficiency on anything too big. It's not related to anything like lack of strength or practice - it's a different mechanical function that is incompatible with large mouthpieces. See the above post by dukesboneman.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by BPBasso »

Doug Elliott wrote: Sat Sep 20, 2025 6:04 pm Bigger inside diameter, deeper cups, and larger throat or backbore all make it easier to navigate the extreme low range.
When does the extreme low range begin in your opinion?
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by Doug Elliott »

I'm not a bass trombone player and I rarely even work on tenor trigger range - that's just not what I do most of the time.

If you're doing things correctly, hopefully the entire range should be a continuum, with no particular start or stop (or shift point).
The fact is, hardly anyone actually does it that way, but in my opinion that should be the goal. The instant gratification of shifting for pedals is tempting, and that's exactly where a larger rim size (and/or more cup depth or bigger throat or backbore) can help avoid the (perceived) "need" to shift.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

GabrielRice wrote: Thu Sep 18, 2025 10:14 am And for non-equipment practice strategy solutions, practice all your lip slurs all the way through the valve combinations. Start with 3 note slurs between the 2nd and 4th partials but extend to 5, 6, 7, 8 note slurs, all the way up and down, challenging the speed and flexibility, while keeping one and two valves down. Adjust the handslide for the tuning of the partials and strive for just as much evenness and resonance as you get on the open horn. You won't quite get there in all probability, but working towards it will improve your response with the valves down significantly. You will also learn just how much air you need to have in your body to support the sound and response when the instrument is that long. I visualize it like sitting on an exercise ball - you need to keep it inflated or you just fall off.

I have started doing lips slurs into the valve and pedal ranges, and the most obvious things are 1) the "pivot" I need to get the valve and pedals to resonate properly, and 2) just how much more air is required.

Clearly I have been adjusting while playing all along, but these adjustments are a lot more obvious with the lip slurs, and no, they aren't the prettiest thing to hear, very disjointed.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by GabrielRice »

JTeagarden wrote: Mon Sep 22, 2025 7:03 am I have started doing lips slurs into the valve and pedal ranges, and the most obvious things are 1) the "pivot" I need to get the valve and pedals to resonate properly, and 2) just how much more air is required.
One of the best pieces of advice Doug gave me was this: if you're finding yourself doing something suddenly, try to do it more gradually. In other words, if you're needing a big pivot between, say, 3rd and 2nd partial on a downward lip slur with the valves down, start on the 4th partial, do some of that pivot to get down to the 3rd, and the rest to get to the 2nd. Not only will the way you produce sound on the 2nd partial change, so will the 3rd partial, maybe the 4th, etc. Go the other direction as well to help train your body to bring the angles closer together. The transitions smooth out over time.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

I keep working the slurs, and am having a small (and it seems, rather late) epiphany: Articulating the trigger-register notes is not strictly an embouchure thing (placement, tension, aperture), matching the air stream with the length of the horn has a whole lot to do with making these lower notes speak properly.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by blast »

JTeagarden wrote: Wed Sep 24, 2025 8:16 am I keep working the slurs, and am having a small (and it seems, rather late) epiphany: Articulating the trigger-register notes is not strictly an embouchure thing (placement, tension, aperture), matching the air stream with the length of the horn has a whole lot to do with making these lower notes speak properly.
Big or small mouthpiece, you have to spend time working out how to get results. You're on the way !!
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

blast wrote: Wed Sep 24, 2025 8:25 am Big or small mouthpiece, you have to spend time working out how to get results. You're on the way !!

Definitely feels like it: I'm no longer tripping over my tongue with this larger mouthpiece, so one impediment gone...
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

I ordered the Markey 87, and tried it today for the first time.

While it is not as comfortable as the Rath 1-1/4 W (no doubt largely due to the narrower rim - inner rim contour seems about the same), it has a "directness" to it that I like, and the sound off the bell is more even across dynamics and throughout the range somehow: Less difference in the quality of the sound from low to high, soft to loud.

It also somehow seems remarkably "in tune," a quality I don't generally notice with mouthpieces, but which I notice on this piece, maybe that's the "evenness" I am noticing.

No obvious immediate improvement in how the lower range speaks, no magic bulllet, will need to slog that one out...
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by GabrielRice »

I've found that some mouthpieces are more in tune than others, in the sense that the pitch center is easy to establish very quickly and effortlessly, especially when slurring between partials. Doug Elliott's designs do this well, as do Laskey's. I did not find this to be the case with Griego's original bass trombone designs (which tended to have much larger throats than I personally was comfortable with), but I think the newer ones like the Markey line are excellent this way.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

GabrielRice wrote: Sat Sep 27, 2025 10:29 am I've found that some mouthpieces are more in tune than others, in the sense that the pitch center is easy to establish very quickly and effortlessly, especially when slurring between partials.
That’s an apt description, and the strength of the overtones is about the same up and down the horn, and doesn’t need any help from my embouchure to have the same quality in the different registers, nothing much in the way of finessing the airstream required, if this makes any sense.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by TomInME »

Something I don't think has been mentioned so far:

There are some large mouthpieces that are badly designed and can seem too "big" when it really isn't the cup volume that is the problem.

I cite the Bach 1G as an example, it has a terribly narrow and somewhat rounded rim that (for me at least) tends to cut off circulation when any amount of pressure is used, for instance, anywhere above the staff. The oversized throat and backbore exacerbated that problem. In the folly of my youth I wasted months trying to build a high register on it and never got anywhere. The difference in high-range endurance between that and the mW DE rim I use now is worlds apart.

As a counter-example, I would cite the Yeo mouthpiece. Plenty of cup volume, but the rim is pretty comfortable, the throat moderate, and the backbore tight. Didn't feel particularly big to me, especially in terms of air resistance. I wouldn't call it well-balanced (the backbore in particular seemed much too tight to me), but it does work and could be a good fit for someone who feels "crowded" in a smaller cup but needs extra efficiency in terms of air.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

Also, slide positions are slightly different with this mouthpice, particularly positions 4-7, don't need to go out as far as with any other mouthpieces, suggesting the MP is flatter than other ones, but mostly just in the lower partials, what's up with that?

Again, I don't tend to consider MPs as contributing to being in tune, but this one is simply different, and I'm at a loss to understand why: Is this finally an "in tune" MP, and the others were not?
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by bassboy »

JTeagarden wrote: Wed Oct 01, 2025 7:09 am Also, slide positions are slightly different with this mouthpice, particularly positions 4-7, don't need to go out as far as with any other mouthpieces, suggesting the MP is flatter than other ones, but mostly just in the lower partials, what's up with that?

Again, I don't tend to consider MPs as contributing to being in tune, but this one is simply different, and I'm at a loss to understand why: Is this finally an "in tune" MP, and the others were not?
My experience has been that mouthpieces absolutely contribute to our pitch. The mechanics and acoustics of any trombone (bass or otherwise) being as complex and undecipherable to me as they are, the tendencies of a mouthpiece I've noticed can certainly change not only where certain notes sit, but also where I need to put my tuning slides.

The converse of this is, if you find a mouthpiece that is very "middle of the road" in terms of dimensions, manages to help you achieve the sound in your head, and still keeps the pitch across most of the registers of the the horn in roughly the places you know them to be, all while feeling mostly "familiar" in response--that's a very good egg.
I feel particularly thankful my current setup has me feeling that way, and hope anybody reading this finds theirs as well.
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Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by Savio »

We all have many mouthpieces. :shuffle: Too big or too small is a question that always comes up. As I understand it, many factors can play a role. Doug Elliott has explained about types of embouchures that can give us a clue. Age, level and how long we have been playing also matter. Development of design and selection is high. So there is a lot to choose from. It can be a blessing and a nightmare.

I don't have any specific advice for anyone. But some general advice. If you are new to trombone or young, try to learn basic technique on a regular mouthpiece for your instrument. Practice it until you reach a certain level. Then you will have a foundation that can give you a sign of what you yourself feel you need. Furthermore, most of us need some outside guidance from a teacher who can listen and see us. From my own journey, I see many mistakes I have made.

What you say about intonation I think is correct. But it is probably also a combination of instrument, player, mouthpiece matching. You probably have to trust your own ear in the end. Not the mouthpiece.

I also see that the big star trombonists also try new mouthpieces. But often they choose something that is very similar to what they have always used. So for those of you who want to get to that level, I think stability is important. But these are just thoughts from someone who always likes to get a shiny new mouthpiece in the mailbox. Dont tell my wife….

Leif
JTeagarden
Posts: 487
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2025 8:37 am

Re: Bass MPs: When is it Big Enough?

Post by JTeagarden »

The Markey 87 is great. it is very efficient, and the sound is consistent all over the horn, I didn't appreciate how much adjusting I was doing to the airstream before, not nearly as much physical effort with it.

I suspect part of this is just it being a larger MP, and part of it is that I don't have to fight its natural tendencies.
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