Physics question

[VJOFan]

The last few lunch breaks during semester prep at school I worked through a podcast that was a conversation with Bobby Shew. Near the end he explained what happens inside the mouthpiece cup and why it has to happen from low to high register.

The summary is that for lower notes the air stream is directed towards the bottom of the cup and that allows the entire mouthpiece cup to be part of the air stream. Conversely, as pitches go higher the air stream is directed more towards the top edge of the cup reducing how much of the volume of the cup is included in the airstream. The way he explained it is that it is what is happening and we can’t/shouldn’t fight it. The change in virtual (my italics because I can’t think of a better way to express this concept) cup volume aids in the development of the faster and slower vibrations needed for higher and lower notes.

1. I think the thing about the airstream is actually happening but is it reversed between upstream and downstream players?
2. Does the cup volume virtual change thing make any sense? Is that possibly happening?
3. Is that what (or at least part of what) getting the right pivot for one’s anatomy is about?

[AndrewMeronek]

I'm a downstream player and I'm pretty sure that for me it's the opposite: high notes are blown more down, closer to the rim; and lower notes are blown more away from the rim, toward the throat.

I'm pretty sure that Dave Wilken has some great videos with transparent plastic mouthpieces showing this specific detail for different types of embouchures.

[AndrewMeronek]

Something to consider for Bobby's observations on his own playing. It looks to me like he may be an upstream player. It's hard to tell in the above video (for me, anyway) but the way he changes the trumpet angle to be higher for lower notes and vice versa for high notes suggests either upstream or an uncommon downstream type.

[Wilktone]

My best guess for Bobby Shew's embouchure type is Reinhardt IIIB (downstream, pulls down to ascend). I think he's got too much upper lip inside to be upstream. I've played with him a few times (not recently) and he was using that transparent mouthpiece some, and that was my guess back then too. Could be wrong, though.

The summary is that for lower notes the air stream is directed towards the bottom of the cup and that allows the entire mouthpiece cup to be part of the air stream. Conversely, as pitches go higher the air stream is directed more towards the top edge of the cup reducing how much of the volume of the cup is included in the airstream. The way he explained it is that it is what is happening and we can’t/shouldn’t fight it. The change in virtual (my italics because I can’t think of a better way to express this concept) cup volume aids in the development of the faster and slower vibrations needed for higher and lower notes.

I don't think the way he describes it is accurate, but does have some elements of truth to it. It is probably how he *feels* he does it.

The Lloyd Leno films on my YouTube channel are probably the clearest videos I have to show how the airstream gets directed for upstream and downstream players.

[harrisonreed]

A better was to describe it is that for low notes the air stream is directed closer towards the throat of the mouthpiece. And for high notes it is more towards the rim edge. This is completely true, and defining it this way will be equally applicable to up and downstream players.

If you think about it, a shallower cup mouthpiece puts the area near the rim much closer to where you can hit it. Likewise with a deep mouthpiece, pretty much anywhere hits the throat.

I thought this was common knowledge and what everyone is taught now?

[harrisonreed]

My best guess for Bobby Shew's embouchure type is Reinhardt IIIB (downstream, pulls down to ascend). I think he's got too much upper lip inside to be upstream. I've played with him a few times (not recently) and he was using that transparent mouthpiece some, and that was my guess back then too. Could be wrong, though.

That looks completely upstream to me. But I might be distracted by how much he is tilting the horn up towards his nose (the opposite of what most downstream players do).

[VJOFan]

I thought this was common knowledge and what everyone is taught now?

I’m a little older than “these days” What I was taught for face building and chop care was to play a 50 minute routine every morning and before every rehearsal and I would be fine. It partly worked out but I’ve learnt more about my set up in the last few years than in the previous 40. I can’t get on the horn enough to be fully the player I’d like but I’ve never before had D’’s E’s and F’s as just everyday notes. I get up and down the horn so much easier now than ever before. So,I’ll keep asking about things and turning them around in my head until I feel like I get it. What are probably the same facts get explained by different players in so many different ways it’s nice to try to find the… average.

[timothy42b]

Air flow is slower than we think especially compared to sound waves.

I think the sound waves have no trouble filling the whole cup regardless of where air is directed.

But if it not, it would make some sense that the shape of the cup would be different, and it would make a lot of difference to any resonances if that area were more cup shaped (Helmholtz) vs cylindrical. You can demonstrate with a water bottle half full, in different orientations.

[Wilktone]

A better was to describe it is that for low notes the air stream is directed closer towards the throat of the mouthpiece. And for high notes it is more towards the rim edge. This is completely true, and defining it this way will be equally applicable to up and downstream players.

Yes, this is how I like to describe it too.

If you think about it, a shallower cup mouthpiece puts the area near the rim much closer to where you can hit it. Likewise with a deep mouthpiece, pretty much anywhere hits the throat.

When I was still in grad school, working on my dissertation, Bobby Shew came to Ball State as a guest and I spent some time hanging out with him. I asked him what he thought of my embouchure change that Doug Elliott helped me with, where I switched from using a mouthpiece placement that was downstream and was maybe 60% top lip to my current placement, which is about 15-20% top lip. His thought then, if I recall correctly, was that what I was doing was essentially moving the aperture to a spot where the cup was closer, so my high range boost was similar to using a shallower mouthpiece.

Now I don't think that this is what made for my improvements, nor do I think that moving mouthpiece placements higher or lower has as much to do with cup size as it does with getting the proper ratio of upper to lower lip inside the cup for the individual player's anatomy. But this seems consistent with how Bobby Shew describes it. So I don't agree with him here.

That looks completely upstream to me. But I might be distracted by how much he is tilting the horn up towards his nose (the opposite of what most downstream players do).

It's difficult to look at how players adjust their horn angle and use that to determine their embouchure type. I'm upstream and my horn angle goes down to ascend (and to my left). Some downstream players will do similarly and some will do like Bobby Shew.

Horn angle (and the changes that one makes) can be quite personal and doesn't really tell you about whether the player is upstream or downstream.

What are probably the same facts get explained by different players in so many different ways it’s nice to try to find the… average.

I try to distinguish between how different players describe what they think they are doing and what is actually happening. Playing analogies can be quite useful, but they can sometimes be different from what actually happens. Personally, I like to know the difference.

Dave