Jazz trombone with trigger

[wesleyrubim]

Hey trombone chatters

If you had to choose a trombone with trigger to play jazz on, which brand and model would you choose?

Ps.: Modern trombones also count as an answer haha

[Posaunus]

I'd start with a King 3B-F.
Works for jazz just as well as a King 3B.

[hyperbolica]

There aren't a lot of options. 3b is the place to start. There are older horns, but for this, they aren't nearly as good as the 3bf. But honestly the 3bf isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's the best game in town because it's the only game in town.

My problem with the 3b in general is hard to explain, but after the honeymoon period with the latest one I bought, the only mental image it conjured for me was heartburn - thin and harsh.

You can get some Euro small horns that have valves. K&H Bart van Lier has a model but it gets mixed reviews and you don't see them outside of Europe very often. Rath may have an option.

A custom job is the next option, and the sky's the limit with that. Next you'll ask where to start. 3508? 6h? 16m?Olds Recording?

I recently was on this same search for a small bore with a valve. My solution won't work for everyone. I got a 3bf+. Kinda rare, but it's a nicer horn than the 3bf for my purposes (quintet), and a cheaper alternative than Euro or custom horns. 3bf+ is bright enough to be a jazzer. It's definitely a big small horn, plays much smaller than any other 525 bore I've played, and a lot of smaller ones too.

TLDR: 3bf or custom job.

[CalgaryTbone]

I think there is a detachable valve available for the new Shires Marshall Gilkes model.

Jim Scott

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Williams 7.

[Kevbach33]

As others said, the King 3BF is where you should start, but it doesn't have to end there.

Rath can make a valve section (.535"/13.6 mm bore) for their small bore models.

Try the K & H .512 f before buying if you can.

And I'm sure there are other small makers who can accommodate.

I think there is a detachable valve available for the new Shires Marshall Gilkes model.

Jim Scott

I thought Shires small bore bones were fixed bell construction? (The Gilkes model has a detachable bell flare, not neck pipe.) Not that they couldn't build one with detachable bracing... And they do offer a valve build for their small bores.

[AtomicClock]

If you need a small bore horn with an F attachment, this is a version of my signature horn with a .525 modular F attachment. And if you want to turn that into just a regular tenor trombone, you can just use this piece right here, which just turns it into a regular .500 bore straight tenor.

He uses both versions of his horn in this video, but not the straight neckpipe.

[Briande]

Luke Malewicz (Aka LowBrassLuke on YouTube) has a Yamaha 892ZXD he’s been playing lately. He said it was .508 with F attachment.

[claf]

For "jazz" (meaning, not big band 1st or 2nd), my heart goes to the Rath R3F Andy Hunter.

[brassmedic]

The "modern" 3B leadpipe is a disaster. 2 piece construction. Impossibly tight. Why?

[BGuttman]

The "modern" 3B leadpipe is a disaster. 2 piece construction. Impossibly tight. Why?

Do you offer an alternative (and a conversion to removable pipes)?

[harrisonreed]

I've got a Brad Close pipe for my 3BF. Press fit. It works very well.

But my 3BF was already from the 60's and had the one piece pipe, which was pretty good to begin with.

[ryant]

88h

[BGuttman]

88h

That is considered a bit large to play 1st or 2nd in a professional Big Band. It's good if it's what you have; especially in a school ensemble. But most of us consider something in the 0.485" to 0.508" bore to be more appropriate.

[JohnL]

There's Selmer Boleros with f-atrachments. Not common here us the USA, though.

I've used an Olds R-20 Recording, but I'm not a professional.

[DaveAshley]

Best bang for the buck by far: Yamaha 356R!

[Cmillar]

Glenn Ferris plays an old 3BF that has been customized/modified I believe.

Love his approach and playing. He's got a really distinctive sound and style that seems to be helped by having an F horn.

[NotSkilledHere]

as many others have said, a 3bf is the best place and probably 1st place to start. very common, fairly affordable, well worth the prices on the second hand market, and a lot of original parts support.

the Selmer Bolero is also a good horn but not common.

You can try to find Olds Recordings or Reynolds Contemporas with f triggers, Reynolds Professional Model 77, Reynolds Profesional TO-29, and Reynolds Onyx but all of these are a bit less common. if i recall the Reynolds tend to be more med bore sized tho, but they are quite fit for the purpose.

Rath R1, R2, R10, R12 all have support for valve sections.

You can try looking for some yamaha bones but im not sure which ones are small bore and valved.

there's a few more options out there, but small bores with f attachments arent plentiful to say the least. you can try the med bores if you feel they might fit your purpose. You would have a lot more valved options on that side

[bitbckt]

I played through the various BvL models at the K&H factory when I was there a few months back. I wouldn't replace my 3BF with one.

Piling on: try a 3BF first, then look elsewhere if it doesn't work (it probably will).

[SwissTbone]

For "jazz" (meaning, not big band 1st or 2nd), my heart goes to the Rath R3F Andy Hunter.

Good call! Or the "new" Rath R300f if you don't need all the custom options.

[claf]

For "jazz" (meaning, not big band 1st or 2nd), my heart goes to the Rath R3F Andy Hunter.

Good call! Or the "new" Rath R300f if you don't need all the custom options.

I don't need the custom options, I'm just a fanboy here

[bimmerman]

I have a 16M that was modded to have an F valve, likely from a 36.

Works pretty great for my needs.

[JMcV]

I'd try the Kuhnl & Hoyer Bart Van Lier .512 w/ F attachment. The straight .512 is a wonderful horn, with versatility for jazz, commercial, and some classical applications. The F attachment would expand that versatility. It's got a slightly wider slide than most .508 bore tenors, and a slightly larger bell, at 8.19 inches. Available in yellow or gold brass.

[brassmedic]

The "modern" 3B leadpipe is a disaster. 2 piece construction. Impossibly tight. Why?

Do you offer an alternative (and a conversion to removable pipes)?

I can make my 32H pipe in .508 size. Very popular option.
Much improved over the stock 3B 2 piece pipe. Yes the leadpipe has to be pulled. Not a problem for an experienced tech.

[RJMason]

I’ve also tried the BvLs .512. Cool horns but yeah I’d probably just get a 3BF.

I modded a ‘61 6H with a valve and it’s definitely in my top 3 trombones I’ve ever owned. Like a mini 72H down there.

Rath small bores can all come with valves if you got the cash. They really work quite well if you can get down with their designs.

R20 Recording is great. The Yamaha .500-.525 dual is really good. Williams 7…yeah that’s the best sounding one but ain’t gonna find one.

[tbdana]

I'm curious why. Like, what the advantage is in having an F attachment on a jazz horn.

[CalgaryTbone]

I'm curious why. Like, what the advantage is in having an F attachment on a jazz horn.

Good for some shows, and some horn section stuff where a few low E flats and D's add some punch.

Marshall does some overdub stuff where he uses his. I've played a couple of 3rd parts in Big Band charts that had a valve note - sometimes a cool sound to have an E flat where the Bass is playing a pedal A flat (or something similar).

There's also just the occasional low soli part where having low B flat and B natural/C close together on the slide.

On the other hand, you're right that it's not that necessary 90% of the time. When it is, it's nice to have the option.

Jim Scott

[hyperbolica]

I wanted the valve on a small bore used for quintet. Not necessarily jazz, but small bore application. Just works better for the group of people I play with.

[tromboneVan]

There are instances in which a valve can be used to achieve a glissando that would not be possible otherwise.

[lmalewic]

I’m hoping to be able to convince Yamaha to make the model I play available to the public. It’s a 892ZXD which essentially is a 891ZD with a trigger on it. .508 bore 8in bell. Since I got that horn I stopped using the standard 891ZD. The trigger has come in handy almost every time I play. While the standard jazz big band lead charts don’t require me to use it, I use it quite a lot doing remote recording sessions and playing horn parts. The music is often written with lots of passages going between low A and B and Bb and C. The composers want those lines but also want a small bore sound. It’s a really versatile horn and you can vary the sound quite a bit using a different mouthpiece.

[johntarr]

I’m hoping to be able to convince Yamaha to make the model I play available to the public. It’s a 892ZXD which essentially is a 891ZD with a trigger on it. .508 bore 8in bell. Since I got that horn I stopped using the standard 891ZD. The trigger has come in handy almost every time I play. While the standard jazz big band lead charts don’t require me to use it, I use it quite a lot doing remote recording sessions and playing horn parts. The music is often written with lots of passages going between low A and B and Bb and C. The composers want those lines but also want a small bore sound. It’s a really versatile horn and you can vary the sound quite a bit using a different mouthpiece.

I hope you convince them!

[Finetales]

King 3BF - Most widely available, most versatile trombone ever, sounds great in just about any context, no quirks, takes any mouthpiece, plays great all over, cheap. Good ones play the same as a straight 3B - my 1970 3B and 1970 3BF play identically.

King 607/609/3B+F - Plays exactly like a 3BF, just a tiny bit harder in the high register with an even beefier low register. Works everywhere a 3BF does, which is...everywhere. Just make sure you get one old enough to have the 3B pipe and not the student pipe...so no 607F/608F unless you're planning on pulling the pipe. Dunno if the Besson 737 has the older or newer pipe.

King 605F - They're ok, definitely a step down from the 3BF/607/etc. Also small at .491". They play like the student horn they are, but I suspect most of that is the leadpipe. Put a better pipe in and I bet you'd have a real sleeper.

Yamaha 356/456/3540R - Nice players, very easy, huge sound. Plays and sounds more like a small big horn than a big small horn, IMO. Sound is pretty boring though. If you don't live in the USA, you can get these for mad cheap on Buyee. Also, I'm jealous.

Yamaha 852 - Ultra rare JDM Custom model, .500" with F. Excellent players, great sound and feel everywhere. Just don't expect to find one, I've only seen 2 for sale ever.

Olds R-20/V-20/A-20 - I've only played the R-20. Good, definitely much quirkier than a 3BF though. I actually prefer my R-20 that's been cut to C over the stock horn!

Reynolds - Some Contemporas are really awesome, but IMO these play and sound bigger than their .515" or .520" bore size would suggest. I would personally only buy one as a chamber/"light legit" horn, rather than a jazz horn.

Holton TR650 - Weird student horn with a G valve. I haven't tried it, but being as it's a Holton student horn I doubt it's anything to write home about.

Williams 7 - I haven't had the pleasure, but the 2 Williams 6s I've played were the best small bores I've ever played, so I'm sure the 7 is equally fantastic.

Shires - A friend of mine played a custom .508 with F for a long time. It was a very nice player, super easy and even as you would expect but with personality as well. He moved on to a BAC small bore with F that's amazing (somehow), so that's another option.

Rath - Their small bores are great, especially with nickel bells, so adding a valve is surely great too. If I was given a bunch of money to go get a new small horn, it would probably be a nickel R2F or R10F.

Victory Crown .508 with Yamaha-style semi-open F wrap - Tried this one at NAMM a couple years ago. The straight horns were actually really good, but the one with the valve felt super dead. Could have just been a bad one.

Others I haven't tried: K&H BvL, Kanstul 760, Carol Brass alphabet soup 3BF-esque .508" open wrap, Jupiter JSL-538/JTB-710F

I'm curious why. Like, what the advantage is in having an F attachment on a jazz horn.

Lots of big band 3rd trombone parts aren't written with regard for slide movements, so you'll have low B to Bb in fast licks and such all the time. Even if the part never goes below low E, a valve is REALLY nice to have on 3rd. And of course if somebody does write a low Eb, you can play it. Also wedding bands (bari parts), pit books, and so on. There's lots of reasons to want a valve on a small horn.

[dcslideman]

Slight divergence here, but I think if a pro level C/Bb small bore would be very useful for 1st parts in various genres. It gives you alternate positions than 6/7 for C/B. Also, as pointed out gives you options for other glissandos. As long as you didn't need F/E below the staff. (Oh, and it'd be a little lighter too). There have been some threads on the student Yamaha 350C the only major instance of this. I think the consensus was that it is solid but not top level. It's marketed for diminutive students who can't reach 6/7, but has these other valuable features. So, If Yamaha made an 850C or 650C with top-line features and playability like 891, I think that would be something.

[peteedwards]

Slight divergence here, but I think if a pro level C/Bb small bore would be very useful for 1st parts in various genres. It gives you alternate positions than 6/7 for C/B. Also, as pointed out gives you options for other glissandos. As long as you didn't need F/E below the staff. (Oh, and it'd be a little lighter too). There have been some threads on the student Yamaha 350C the only major instance of this. I think the consensus was that it is solid but not top level. It's marketed for diminutive students who can't reach 6/7, but has these other valuable features. So, If Yamaha made an 850C or 650C with top-line features and playability like 891, I think that would be something.

another vote for ascending C
a 3BF converted to Bb/F/ascending C would be awesome

[Finetales]

The only real issue with the 350C is the slide doesn't have 7 positions, so there is no low E. For an ascending C valve jazz tenor to work, it would have to have 7 positions in B-flat, which might make the proportions and intonation kinda wonky. The ascending C valve definitely works on a small horn though, it makes the 350C very fun to play.

Of course, you could just fully commit and do F and ascending C, which I'm a big fan of, but most people probably don't want 2 valves on their jazz horn. You could always make it dependent, which allows you to use both valves independently but not together. Though if I was doing that, I'd probably put the descending valve in Gb or G in order to make the two valves less redundant.

I've mentioned that I'm having a 2-valve modular 3B/607 made. If I ever decide to do another one maybe I'll do Bb/F/ascending C.

Of course, if you really want to go off the deep end, you could just get a small tenor in C with a valve. Not something that stands in B-flat and has an ascending C valve, but just stands in C and you play it in C. I mentioned my R-20 in C above, which also has a valve in A (=G valve on a tenor). It's awesome, and very good at either lead trombone or being a bridge between alto and tenors, depending on how you play it and what mouthpiece you use.

[Toto]

Anybody having experience with a Schmelzer, having the detachable valve?

[bigbone1]

Ich habe eine vergoldete Modell1 mit abnehmbaren Ventil angespielt. Der Ventileinfluss ist sehr gering. Da ich aber kein Ventil benötige, habe ich dann die versilberte Modell 1 mitgenommen

Translation:
I played a gold-plated Model 1 with a removable valve. The valve influence is very minimal. However, since I don't need a valve, I took the silver-plated Model 1 with me.


Bitte auf Englisch posten.

<Modified by Moderator BGuttman>

[Toto]

Thanks for sharing the experience. My favorite would be a Model2 Xt. Probably, I should look out to try one.

[bigbone1]

If there is one available. I think Manfred retired

[Toto]

He is not building new ones, but selling still his available stock - which has become very little only. I‘m living not far away from him - and now I own Model.2 XT )

[Aznguyy]

He is not building new ones, but selling still his available stock - which has become very little only. I‘m living not far away from him - and now I own Model.2 XT )

Does he have anymore Valve sections available?

[Toto]

He told me, that it was the last XT version available and I had no choice on the material. I’m not sure what might be around at some resellers. When interested, I suggest that you contact him directly via the contacts given on his HP. Usually, he responds very quickly.

[Sesquitone]

The only real issue with the 350C is the slide doesn't have 7 positions, so there is no low E. For an ascending C valve jazz tenor to work, it would have to have 7 positions in B-flat, which might make the proportions and intonation kinda wonky. The ascending C valve definitely works on a small horn though, it makes the 350C very fun to play.

Of course, you could just fully commit and do F and ascending C, which I'm a big fan of, but most people probably don't want 2 valves on their jazz horn. You could always make it dependent, which allows you to use both valves independently but not together. Though if I was doing that, I'd probably put the descending valve in Gb or G in order to make the two valves less redundant.

I've mentioned that I'm having a 2-valve modular 3B/607 made. If I ever decide to do another one maybe I'll do Bb/F/ascending C.

Of course, if you really want to go off the deep end, you could just get a small tenor in C with a valve. Not something that stands in B-flat and has an ascending C valve, but just stands in C and you play it in C. I mentioned my R-20 in C above, which also has a valve in A (=G valve on a tenor). It's awesome, and very good at either lead trombone or being a bridge between alto and tenors, depending on how you play it and what mouthpiece you use.

Below, I've shown some ETSP Charts. First, for the Yamaha 350C student model—you can see immediately the missing E2 (and pedal E1); and the "bonus" pedals, C2 and B1. Seventh position in C is just slightly longer than sixth position in Bb. All linear dimensions in C are 12% shorter than those in Bb.

Also a professional-level C/A lead tenor of great carrying power (paralleling the C trumpet often used in orchestras). Note that the (non-pedal) lowest note is E2, exactly the same as the non-attachment Bb tenor.

And a side-by-side comparison of the Bb/F-(asc)C (where the double-valve combination is "half-flat" G) and the well-known Bollinger tuning, which has many similarities. Obviously, the scales of the first two charts are not the same. But I have tried to adjust both vertical and horizontal scales of the ETSP Charts in the side-by-side picture to be fairly close.

As with all ETSP Charts, the shaded regions outline chromatic scales with shortest slide positions and longest slide positions. The wider the unshaded regions are, the more alternate positions are available—and therefore the greater the slide facility. You can visualise (or sketch in) shaded regions on the C/A ETSP chart to see why this is the optimal "Jazz trombone with trigger". As Finetales wrote about the Olds R-20 with its cut-down Re-O-Loy bell, 12%-shortened slide and a minor-third attachment: "it's awesome"—although I'm sure this is not what the original post was contemplating.

In all the charts, black dots represent slide-alone tones, open circles are thumb-trigger-actuated valve tones, "stars" represent finger-trigger tones, and "stars-within-circles" are double-valve tones. Lines sloping down to the right connect tones along a single harmonic (slide-alone or attachment)—indicated by Roman numerals in the C/A ETSP Chart. In the YSL 350C chart, I have shown (dashed-line) trajectories of major-second increments between adjacent harmonics. In general, the steeper (and "smoother") these trajectories are, the greater the side facility—particularly obvious within the treble-clef range.

Just in case anyone wants to check slide extensions, I list some here for base tuning of C and minor-third attachment A, compared with Bb and minor-third attachment G, and also the tradition perfect-fourth attachment F. Note the 12% reduction in extensions of the C/A combination compared with Bb/G.

Slide Position------------Extension (mm)
---------------C-------A-------Bb------- G-------F
1--------------0-------0--------0--------0-------0
2-------------78-------93------88------105-----117
3------------161------192-----181------215-----242
4------------249------297-----280------333-----374
5------------343------408-----385------457-----513
6------------442------525-----496------589-----(661)
7------------546------***------613------***------***


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[deanmccarty]

Voigt Brass has an option of adding an attachment to their JV-27 (.500 bore) jazz horn. The JV-27 is a fully customizable instrument with several bell, slide, and leadpipe choices.

[goldendomer04]

I have a Getzen 3508 where Eric Swanson added a modular King 3b valve section. It is the most fun small bore horn I’ve played and it’s incredibly versatile to boot.

I think this search is a worthwhile adventure!

[hyperbolica]

I have a Getzen 3508 where Eric Swanson added a modular King 3b valve section. It is the most fun small bore horn I’ve played and it’s incredibly versatile to boot.

I think this search is a worthwhile adventure!

I'm sorry, but you can't just come in here and say something like that. We need pictures. I've been thinking about doing that with my 3508. Pics!

[goldendomer04]

I have a Getzen 3508 where Eric Swanson added a modular King 3b valve section. It is the most fun small bore horn I’ve played and it’s incredibly versatile to boot.

I think this search is a worthwhile adventure!

I'm sorry, but you can't just come in here and say something like that. We need pictures. I've been thinking about doing that with my 3508. Pics!

- I just plain forgot!

IMG_0258.jpeg

[hyperbolica]

Oh, that's nice. Thanks! I'll bet thats a great horn to play.

[Sesquitone]

The only real issue with the 350C is the slide doesn't have 7 positions, so there is no E2. For an ascending C valve jazz tenor to work, it would have to have 7 positions in B-flat, which might make the proportions and intonation kinda wonky. The ascending C valve definitely works on a small horn though, it makes the 350C very fun to play.

Of course, if you really want to go off the deep end, you could just get a small tenor in C with a valve. Not something that stands in B-flat and has an ascending C valve, but just stands in C and you play it in C. I mentioned my R-20 in C above, which also has a valve in A (=G valve on a tenor). It's awesome, and very good at either lead trombone or being a bridge between alto and tenors, depending on how you play it and what mouthpiece you use.

It is relatively straightforward to convert the Yamaha 350C to C/A, covering the standard Bb tenor lowest range: seven positions in C, six positions in A, down to E2. By disassembling the valve, turning the rotor 90º (either way) and reassembling, this converts the valve to descending. We now have a trombone pitched in C with a descending valve to Bb—so the E2 (and its pedal) are still missing. Using the existing attachment bow, a technician can easily extend the attachment tubing to place the attachment in A. The additional sound-path length is the same as that between first and second positions on a Bb trombone: slide extension 88 mm, i.e. 176 mm in total. I attach comparative pictures of the original 350C and a (cut-and-paste) mock-up of the conversion to C/A. We now have a bright tenor trombone (dual-bore 12.7 mm/13.3 mm slide) covering the complete standard tenor range, with the well-documented slide-facility advantages of the minor-third attachment (where attachment and slide-alone harmonics interleave in an optimal way)—very suitable as a “Jazz trombone with trigger”. The 12% shorter slide is very light and fast. There are also a couple of “bonus” pedal notes: C2 and B1. However, this is not continuously chromatic: Eb2, D2, and Db2 (and their pedals) are unavailable. For that, you would need another in-line valve with its attachment tuned to F# (20¢ sharp), giving a double-attachment combination with a perfectly in-tune E, reaching down to a non-pedal C2. [However, this is not recommended—the dual-valve wrap geometry gets a bit "complex". However, it works beautifully on a Bb/G-E-D fully chromatic tenor or bass (or transposed down to contrabass).]




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[salsabone]

This entire thread and no mention of the Kanstul kbt760. It would be a no Brainerd. I played one for years!!!
Salsabone