Clementi's early use of orchestral trombones.

[Sesquitone]

First use of "orchestral" trombones (as distinct from merely doubling ATB lines in choral works) is usually attributed to Beethoven in the Finale of his 5th symphony, premiered December 22nd, 1808, in Vienna. Clementi scored for three trombones in his 3rd symphony ("God Save The King") and his 4th (with "monstrous trombone solos"), written between 1802 and 1810. These may not have been performed until 1813–1824, but his earlier symphonies were performed in London in the decade 1786–1796. His use of "exposed" trombones (rather than just filling in the harmony) was considered an "innovative gesture, indeed". Do we have more precise information on "first use"? It's too bad the Clementi symphonies are not better known. They should be performed more often.

[LeTromboniste]

First use of "orchestral" trombones (as distinct from merely doubling ATB lines in choral works) is usually attributed to Beethoven in the Finale of his 5th symphony, premiered December 22nd, 1808, in Vienna. Clementi scored for three trombones in his 3rd symphony ("God Save The King") and his 4th (with "monstrous trombone solos"), written between 1802 and 1810. These may not have been performed until 1813–1824, but his earlier symphonies were performed in London in the decade 1786–1796. His use of "exposed" trombones (rather than just filling in the harmony) was considered an "innovative gesture, indeed". Do we have more precise information on "first use"? It's too bad the Clementi symphonies are not better known. They should be performed more often.

I'm not a fan of that factoid of Beethoven having "introduced the trombone in the orchestra". It relies on a pretty narrow definition of what orchestral music is, as it is only valid for symphonies. But the ensemble accompanying operas and oratorios in the late 18th century is already an orchestra. So is the ensemble accompanying large masses and religious works. For example, right now I'm playing Haydn's Die Jahreszeiten, a secular oratorio for soloists, choir and orchestra. The writing for orchestra is very much "orchestral", and the writing for trombones is perfectly idiomatic and within the norm of what typical orchestral trombone parts look like in the 19th century.

So those composers who did start writing specific trombone parts in symphonies didn't do so out of the blue. They were used to hearing (and often themselves writing for) trombones in other orchestral genres.

That factoid also doesn't take into account that there were local practices, in some places, of adding trombone parts to works that didn't originally have them, including symphonies. I've performed Haydn's Symphony no. 60, from 18th-century manuscript parts taken from a French collection where every Haydn symphony had an added part for trombone and serpent, reinforcing the basses in some movements (and those are not simplified parts, you get every note that the cellos are playing in those movements, including a lot of fast notes). Not exactly idiomatic, but still an example of a practice where trombones were indeed used in symphonic music.

Here's a passage of the cello/bass/bassoon part in the first movement, where the trombone is doubling in that version

Screenshot_20250618-230044.png

And here's a couple passages of the Presto (which is usually in 1 and very, very fast), which are likewise included in the trombone part.

Screenshot_20250618-230212.png

Screenshot_20250618-230404.png

[robcat2075]

Beethoven introduced the trombone to the orchestra like Elvis introduced rock and roll to America.

Yeah, it existed before that but was everyone paying serious attention? Was everyone hearing it and deciding "yes, i want to do that too!"

In cinema it is always risky to declare anything to be "first". So much has been forgotten or ignored or lost that nearly every historic advance has some uncertainty about it. It seems like every "first" I read about in a text book has since been superseded by a reel someone found in an archive in Siberia or a warehouse in South America.

That is for a widely-followed commercial art that is less than 150 years old.

The forgottens and yet-to-be-uncovereds of music must be far greater.

[LeTromboniste]

Yeah, it existed before that but was everyone paying serious attention? Was everyone hearing it and deciding "yes, i want to do that too!"

The TL;DR version of my post above: yes.

[Posaunus]

Beethoven introduced the trombone to the orchestra like Elvis introduced rock and roll to America.

Yeah, it existed before that but was everyone paying serious attention? Was everyone hearing it and deciding "yes, i want to do that too!"

Rob,

Yes rock and roll existed in America, and was getting attention in America well before Elvis Presley released his first record ("Heartbreak Hotel" in January 1956). Not the first example of its predecessors, but I believe the most famous and influential, was Bill Haley's "Rock Around the Clock" which was released in May 1954 and was the "number one single" for two months on the charts of the time. Elvis was huge, but not revolutionary - he was riding the wave.

Fun aside: See, if you can, a production of "Million Dollar Quartet" - a wonderful musical play recreating the night in December 1956 that Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Carl Perkins met by chance at Sun Studios in Memphis, played and recorded their music - and ended up making history.

[harrisonreed]

I thought Marty Mcfly introduced rock and roll to the USA? Am I getting that wrong?

[sungfw]

I thought Marty Mcfly introduced rock and roll to the USA? Am I getting that wrong?

BZZT!!!!!

Mcfly: ‘55; Bill Haley and The Comets’ “Rock Around the Clock”: ‘54 (and, prior to that, “Rock the Joint,” ‘52.

And that’s only holds if you define “introducing Rock and Roll to the USA” as popularizing a previously niche, predominantly Black, musical genre to a predominantly White, suburban, middle class audience.

[robcat2075]

A key observation, not original to me, is that before Beethoven it was rare to find a symphony that included trombones.

After Beethoven, it is rare to find a symphony that did not include trombones.

Others made efforts, but it was Beethoven that moved the needle and made it stick.


Likewise for Elvis. If Bill Haley hadn't happened we could point to a dozen or so other artists who were having success with rock and roll records before Elvis. But rock and roll was still just one genre among many vying for attention in the market, possibly just another fad.

After Elvis, everything else was #2 and rock and roll music would not be easily swept aside.

[LeTromboniste]

A key observation, not original to me, is that before Beethoven it was rare to find a symphony that included trombones.

After Beethoven, it is rare to find a symphony that did not include trombones.

Others made efforts, but it was Beethoven that moved the needle and made it stick.

Again, orchestral music was not defined solely (or even primarily) by symphonies back then. That's a modern concept. Symphonies at the time were usually the opening number of a concert, not the main feature. Opera was a "higher" genre of music than symphonies, but not any less "orchestral". If we're interested to see how the next generation saw the use of trombones in the orchestra, and what their inspiration was, we can for example look at Berlioz's orchestration treatise, where he credits "Gluck, Beethoven, Mozart, Weber and Spontini" for having used it well in their orchestral writing.

I'd also challenge the assertion that it is rare to find a symphony that did not include trombones after Beethoven "introduced" it. For sure by the mid-1800s most symphonies used trombones, but that's a couple decades after Beethoven. If you look at the 30ish years after Beethoven "introduced" the trombone in the symphony, its much more hit and miss.

A couple of examples, starting with Beethoven himself: after the 5th and 6th (which are contemporaneous and were even premiered the same night), he used trombones in only 1 out of his 3 next.

Schubert used trombones in only 2 of his 9.

Mendelssohn wrote 5 major symphonies (numbered, not counting the 12 smaller-scale symphonies he previously wrote without any winds at all), of which only 2 feature trombones.

[LeTromboniste]

Back to the initial question of first use, the earliest in a "symphony" in the modern sense of the term, that I'm aware of and that still survives, is Anton Zimmerman's Symphony in C minor "La Lamentatione", probably written in the late 1760s or in the 1770s given its "Sturm und Drang" features. He uses two trombones, in a very exposed and featured way, with many solo passages. It's a really nice piece.

[EdwardSolomon]

Schubert used trombones in only 2 of his 9.

Have you ever listened to Nº 7 in E major? That uses trombones, too.

[LeTromboniste]

Schubert used trombones in only 2 of his 9.

Have you ever listened to Nº 7 in E major? That uses trombones, too.

Ah! I knew I was forgetting one! Yes indeed. 3 of 9