First Bass Trombone suggestions

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Justconfusediam
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First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Justconfusediam » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:23 pm

Hi All,
I am Tuba Player of quite a few years.I am looking to start playing Bass Trombone. I have been looking at Yamaha 620 Rath R900, Eastman 848, Jupiter Bones.

I generally put a lot of air through the instruments and probably need something that can take it. I’m not interested in the high models as I really don’t know what I prefer as yet. I’m looking for something that will work for a few years and aid my development. The entry level models that you can pick up may frustrate me quickly so I’m looking for a middle ground.

Any suggestion or tips are very welcome.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Burgerbob » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:39 pm

My choice of those would be the Eastman 848. Good horns.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Vegasbound » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:39 pm

Have you got a teacher ?

What sort of playing are you looking to do?
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by BGuttman » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:44 pm

You might find a used instrument a good first shot.

The ability to handle air is more a function of the mouthpiece. I used a Bach 25 tuba mouthpiece on my King 7B to simulate a cimbasso and it took all that air.

There are a number of excellent used bass trombones that could work for you:
Benge 290
Conn 73H
Holton 180 or 181
King 7B or 8B
Olds P24
Reynolds Stereophonic
Yamaha 612, 613

And of course, the Bach 50B2 or 50B3.

One thing you need to figure out is whether you want an independent 2 valve or a dependent 2 valve. Each has some advantages, and once you get used to a particular type it will feel natural.

Some advocate for a single valve bass possibly augmented by a plug-in 2nd valve (necessarily a dependent option). You may find a single valve bass will take you pretty far in your travels as a bass trombone player and they are less expensive than a double. Again, there are some stellar used single valve basses available at lower prices than any of the makes you listed.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Justconfusediam » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:47 pm

No teacher at the present but I know a few who will assist me. Most of them are friends.

As far as playing it will range from Windband, Brass Band at the moment. You never know I might get a shout for an Orchestra but that’s a way off for now.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by BGuttman » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:59 pm

Brass Band bass trombone, from what I have heard, appears to have one characteristic: LOUD. It's almost as if the ensemble is competing with the bass trombone ;)
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by chromebone » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:11 pm

The Benge 290 is a first rate horn and they can be had for very reasonable prices. It's a professional horn that is now unfortunately out of production, but it can compete with anything out there and you could go a long way with it, depending on what you want to do. There's a really nice one for sale at Brass Exchange right now. https://www.thebrass-exchange.com/tromb ... _brand%3A4
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Vegasbound » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:14 pm

The OP may be refering to a British brass band?
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Justconfusediam » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:19 pm

Yes British Brass Band however mainland Europe based. Most likely Windband usage at First though.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by GabrielRice » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:01 pm

Burgerbob wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:39 pm
My choice of those would be the Eastman 848. Good horns.
Mine too, at least based on the prototype I played.

In the used market a Benge 290 isn't bad, though that one linked above might be just a touch overpriced. I would also look for a Holton TR181. Or, of course, a Bach, especially early Elkhart with "corporation" on the bell - though there are good ones later than that as well.

Most Yamaha models could work, especially the 622G/822G, 613H, and 830. The 620 is pretty good. The older 613 and 613G models might feel a little light for you, but they respond very evenly across registers.

I also like the Getzen 1062 and 1052, especially with yellow brass bells. The 1062 has a dual bore slide that might suit your tuba player background.

I would recommend you stay away from Conns (not that I don't like them, but I don't think they would suit the way you describe yourself moving air). For the same reason I would recommend against a Kanstul.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Justconfusediam » Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:08 pm

GabrielRice wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:01 pm
Burgerbob wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:39 pm
My choice of those would be the Eastman 848. Good horns.
Mine too, at least based on the prototype I played.

In the used market a Benge 290 isn't bad, though that one linked above might be just a touch overpriced. I would also look for a Holton TR181. Or, of course, a Bach, especially early Elkhart with "corporation" on the bell - though there are good ones later than that as well.

Most Yamaha models could work, especially the 622G/822G, 613H, and 830. The 620 is pretty good. The older 613 and 613G models might feel a little light for you, but they respond very evenly across registers.

I also like the Getzen 1062 and 1052, especially with yellow brass bells. The 1062 has a dual bore slide that might suit your tuba player background.

I would recommend you stay away from Conns (not that I don't like them, but I don't think they would suit the way you describe yourself moving air). For the same reason I would recommend against a Kanstul.
Actually really interesting as I could try the Eastman and Getzen horns at the same store over here. Though the Getzen is a lot more money.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by marccromme » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:26 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:59 pm
Brass Band bass trombone, from what I have heard, appears to have one characteristic: LOUD. It's almost as if the ensemble is competing with the bass trombone ;)
So true. Just the other way around, as a bass bone you have to compete with 4 tubas, 2 euphs, and 2 baritons. Playing with medium sized mouthpieces and a lighter, brighter tonal color makes it easier to cut through.

Using bath tubs and trying to win againSt tubas with dark color will exhaust you, their job is massive support from below, your job is to put edge, color and articulation on top of the tubas.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by MrHCinDE » Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:07 am

If you‘re considering a Yamaha 620, a used Yamaha 612 is also worth a look. There have been different versions, the later ‚ii‘ models before production ended had separate thumb/finger triggers and mechanical linkages, very much like the 620.

My personal favourite is the 612Rii with 10“ red brass bell and nickel silver slide. It has one of the most accessible pedal registers of any horn I‘ve tried. The valves and slide are excellent and it sounds really even across all registers.

The sound is quite flexible and can be warm and dark with the right mouthpiece and approach to airflow (lots of slow air - should be natural for a tubist!). It can also really light up if you want it to. In the right hands it can absolutely work well for the wide range of repertoire in wind band and brass band. If you decided to join a big band it would fit very well there also. You might have to take care not to overblow in an orchestral setting.

One interesting thing about the 612Rii I have is that although on the face of things it is a relatively lightweight setup, it really gets on with huge mouthpieces.

There are a couple of ways at looking at this:
  • As a tuba player, you are used to playing with a lot of air and need a setup which responds well to your playing approach from tuba, maybe a slightly heavier setup than the 612 would help
or
  • As a learner bass trombonist, one of the first things you will learn is that a bass trombone is not a tuba and must be approached differently, in this case you can enjoy the benefits of a more responsive Instrument, such as the 612, which can easily move between snappy articulations in a big-band transcription, give that little bit of bite on top of the tubas in a march and with some care provide a rich and smooth bottom end in block chords etc.
If you go the 612 route and decide that after a few years you are more focussed on symphonic playing and want a heavy-duty setup, you should have a good chance of reselling the 612 or even better keep it for those times a lighter setup is favourable.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by WGWTR180 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:56 am

I wouldn't necessarily think you'll use the same air stream for bass trombone as you do the tuba so I wouldn't concentrate on "generally putting a lot of air through the instrument" as a given. If you can try the Eastman and the Getzen locally I'd say do that and make a choice. You'll need to spend time learning how to play the instrument, preferably with a bass trombone mouthpiece, and I'm sure either of those choices will suit you just fine.And FWIW I'd stay away from 10 inch belled instruments. Lots of "left to right" and not as much "forward." Good Luck!!
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:45 am

Justconfusediam wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:08 pm
GabrielRice wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:01 pm


Mine too, at least based on the prototype I played.

In the used market a Benge 290 isn't bad, though that one linked above might be just a touch overpriced. I would also look for a Holton TR181. Or, of course, a Bach, especially early Elkhart with "corporation" on the bell - though there are good ones later than that as well.

Most Yamaha models could work, especially the 622G/822G, 613H, and 830. The 620 is pretty good. The older 613 and 613G models might feel a little light for you, but they respond very evenly across registers.

I also like the Getzen 1062 and 1052, especially with yellow brass bells. The 1062 has a dual bore slide that might suit your tuba player background.

I would recommend you stay away from Conns (not that I don't like them, but I don't think they would suit the way you describe yourself moving air). For the same reason I would recommend against a Kanstul.
Actually really interesting as I could try the Eastman and Getzen horns at the same store over here. Though the Getzen is a lot more money.
Very interesting that the Eastman and Getzen horns are in the same conversation here. Back in the early 2000s, Robert Frushour (head technician at Music & Arts and designer of many instruments like the Ventus, the new Giardinelli and numerous horns distributed by the Guitar Center network) borrowed my Getzen 1052 for a few months. He took the horn over to China and the folks at Eastman took measurements and such from my Getzen 1052. Supposedly, they also had a few other horns over there for measurements at the same time. However, if you compare the horns, you should notice that the wraps on the Getzen 1052 and Eastman 848 are VERY SIMILAR. I think the folks at Eastman improved the bracing.

Every time I go to a trombone workshop and try the Eastman 848, it is a strange feeling to know that my Getzen 1052 (now mounted on an Edwards bell) could have been the inspiration for the some of the design elements in the instrument. For the money, I think the Eastman 848 is an excellent instrument. If you can find a used one in good condition, that should be a serious contender.

If the OP is planning to play bass trombone in a brass band, a double valve model is the way to go. Some of the best....most aggressive bass trombone parts that I have every played have been in a British Brass Band. Many of the modern composers/arrangers write VERY GOOD and challenging material for the bass trombone that fully uses every chromatic pitch below the staff.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by ZacharyThornton » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:53 am

^ you let someone borrow a horn to take it to be copied? Or “measured”? A lot of manufacturers are losing enormous amounts of sales due to IP theft from China. Those manufacturers know they can’t stop it but they hope the people ripping them off are buying one first.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by ChadA » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:25 am

The Shires Q series bass trombones are really good horns at a good price. I like them better than the Eastman offerings, even though there are a lot of similarities.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by spencercarran » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:37 am

ChadA wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:25 am
The Shires Q series bass trombones are really good horns at a good price. I like them better than the Eastman offerings, even though there are a lot of similarities.
I'm a bit out of the loop - aren't those the same parent company?
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by BGuttman » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:06 am

spencercarran wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:37 am
ChadA wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:25 am
The Shires Q series bass trombones are really good horns at a good price. I like them better than the Eastman offerings, even though there are a lot of similarities.
I'm a bit out of the loop - aren't those the same parent company?
Shires is a subsidiary of Eastman, although they still make instruments in Massachusetts (much like Haynes for flutes).

Shires went into an agreement to have Eastman make a low cost Shires (much like Rath/John Packer for the JP-Rath line). The Eastman by Shires line was basically a better Eastman instrument with the Shires organization doing some QC.

Shires also makes components in Massachusetts, ships them to China for assembly, and then QC's them in Massachusetts. This is the Q series. Parts are interchangeable with the full Shires Custom series, but the lower costs of assembly in China have been passed on to the customer.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Savio » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:02 am

Justconfusediam wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:23 pm
Hi All,
I am Tuba Player of quite a few years.I am looking to start playing Bass Trombone. I have been looking at Yamaha 620 Rath R900, Eastman 848, Jupiter Bones.

I generally put a lot of air through the instruments and probably need something that can take it. I’m not interested in the high models as I really don’t know what I prefer as yet. I’m looking for something that will work for a few years and aid my development. The entry level models that you can pick up may frustrate me quickly so I’m looking for a middle ground.

Any suggestion or tips are very welcome.
Today there is so many choices out there. Not easy to find a way in the ocean of instruments. I say its not strange these questions often show up. But instruments is in the end very personal, and the answers can sometimes be even more confusing, especially if you ask a bunch of trombonists on the net. :D So I add to the confusion the Yamaha 620. Its really nice sounding and wonderful to play. Not that expensive either.

About the "put a lot of air" thing I'm not sure what you meant. I never thought much about air and maybe should start doing it since I'm not getting younger as I hoped for. haha :biggrin: But my humble unprofessionally take on air is not to much, and not to little. Just right. Depending on what music and environment. Listen your sound and the answer is right there. I try to be effecient with the air but it's a hard nut to figure out, Blowing hard in say a brassband can sometimes give an opposite outcome. A nice sound with a lot of power and energy can break through walls of euphoniums, cornetts and alto horns. Sometimes it just need an aggressive and energic attitude. And remember a little flute takes more air than our low brass instruments.

Well, I just try to figure out things myself so good luck with your journey and hope you get a horn you love. :hi:

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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Elow » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:38 am

I like the eastman bass, are you wanting to buy new or used? There’s a yamaha double on ebay with two slides i think for $2000
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:27 am

ZacharyThornton wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:53 am
^ you let someone borrow a horn to take it to be copied? Or “measured”? A lot of manufacturers are losing enormous amounts of sales due to IP theft from China. Those manufacturers know they can’t stop it but they hope the people ripping them off are buying one first.
Is this really worth getting worked up about? When I was working for Music & Arts (before it was owned by Guitar Centers and then after it was bought by Guitar Centers), we were renting/selling THOUSANDS of Eastman instruments and I was repairing hundreds of them every summer. You might see the Eastman Company as an entity that is stealing American ideas. I appreciate the Eastman Company for supplying students/schools in America with instruments of respectable quality and repairability (if that is actually a word). Essentially, a few cents of every dollar that I earned at the shop could probably be connected to the sales/rental of an Eastman instrument.

If it makes you feel better....I was told that Eastman did buy a couple of Getzen horns later in the process. The 1052 parts that they borrowed from me had no bell flare. That's why I mounted it on an Edwards bell....if you check my previous post.

Besides, what I do with my property is up to me. If any instrument company from USA, Germany, U.K. China, Japan, etc... asks to borrow one of my horns, it is my decision to do it or turn it down. It's an instrument, for goodness sake....not government intelligence.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by ZacharyThornton » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:51 am

The rental fleet instruments built by Conn/Selmer, Yamaha, Buffet, and Gemeinhardt are better made, last longer, and for the same price to the customer. They do their own research and build their own horns. Eastman is cheaper for the box store (Music and Arts, etc) but comes out about the same for the customer. I have worked in that part of the industry for 12 years.
So yes it is a big deal to me. I would rather see better instruments in kids hands and more jobs in the US saved. Also I would rather not support a company that steals intellectual property.
Do what you want with your own horns of course, but when there are only low quality options available because everyone else out of business, remember what you helped create.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by ChadA » Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:25 pm

spencercarran wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:37 am
I'm a bit out of the loop - aren't those the same parent company?
Bruce nailed the answer on this one. There are similarities and some shared components, but in my experience the Shires Q played better than the Eastman when I've played them. As a bonus, the Q series uses fittings compatible with Shires' custom offerings, where Eastman doesn't.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by GabrielRice » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:46 pm

ZacharyThornton wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:51 am
The rental fleet instruments built by Conn/Selmer, Yamaha, Buffet, and Gemeinhardt are better made, last longer, and for the same price to the customer. They do their own research and build their own horns. Eastman is cheaper for the box store (Music and Arts, etc) but comes out about the same for the customer. I have worked in that part of the industry for 12 years.
So yes it is a big deal to me. I would rather see better instruments in kids hands and more jobs in the US saved. Also I would rather not support a company that steals intellectual property.
Do what you want with your own horns of course, but when there are only low quality options available because everyone else out of business, remember what you helped create.
But Zach...this is the way instruments have always been developed.

Bach's first trumpets were essentially copies of French instruments. Holton's first trombones were essentially copies of German instruments, I believe. I think the Conn 8D relies heavily on the model of the German Kruspe horns. Everybody makes a Geyer copy French horn. Earlier Yamaha trombones were pretty much copies of, or at least variations on, Conns. German and French string instrument makers copied Italian makers from prior generations.

The greatest living brass instrument designers - including among others Cristan Griego, Steve Shires, Bob Malone, Wayne Tanabe, Matthew Walker, Mick Rath, the Thein brothers - all have done some copying and some innovating and combine those activities in interesting ways that keep the instruments evolving.

I'm not saying there's no cause for concern about direct rip-offs that claim to be something they are not - and that certainly exists in the musical instrument world - but an Eastman trombone that shares a lot of characteristics with a Getzen also shares characteristics with the instruments that the Getzen designers looked at.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by GabrielRice » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:51 pm

One more thought: based on my playing experience and looking at them, I think the Eastman bass shares a lot more DNA with a Shires than with a Getzen. But I would also say the 1052 and 1062 are the Getzens I feel most comfortable on, and I play a Shires bass trombone every day.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by ZacharyThornton » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:34 pm

Yes but in those days of borrowing designs it was because the horns weren’t being made anymore or weren’t available in different parts of the world. Just read the stories of what Mr. Wick had to do to get Conn trombones to the UK.
That is not what is happening now. Designs are being stolen because another company can make it cheaper by not paying its employees a fair rate and by using subpar materials. This is modern day slave labor that we pretend doesn’t exist because the practice makes products cheaper for us. I guess we ignore it when it is the only way to get a product like electronics. Why should we when it comes to musical instruments?
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by BGuttman » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:37 pm

GabrielRice wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:51 pm
... But I would also say the 1052 and 1062 are the Getzens I feel most comfortable on, and I play a Shires bass trombone every day.
That's interesting, especially considering there is a 3062 that is supposed to be a "higher level" instrument -- closer to the Edwards B-454.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by GabrielRice » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:06 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:37 pm
GabrielRice wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:51 pm
... But I would also say the 1052 and 1062 are the Getzens I feel most comfortable on, and I play a Shires bass trombone every day.
That's interesting, especially considering there is a 3062 that is supposed to be a "higher level" instrument -- closer to the Edwards B-454.
I think that's about Thayer valves more than anything else, and I don't play Thayer valves anymore. Getzen rotors are excellent.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by GabrielRice » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:10 pm

ZacharyThornton wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:34 pm
Yes but in those days of borrowing designs it was because the horns weren’t being made anymore or weren’t available in different parts of the world. Just read the stories of what Mr. Wick had to do to get Conn trombones to the UK.
That is not what is happening now. Designs are being stolen because another company can make it cheaper by not paying its employees a fair rate and by using subpar materials. This is modern day slave labor that we pretend doesn’t exist because the practice makes products cheaper for us. I guess we ignore it when it is the only way to get a product like electronics. Why should we when it comes to musical instruments?
People used to say exactly the same things about Yamaha not so long ago. And Honda and Toyota for that matter.

Again, I'm not saying there are not serious problems in China. But I would say there are problems of some kind everywhere.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by ZacharyThornton » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:13 pm

But Yamahas weren’t cheaper or lesser quality. People said that who didn’t know what they were talking about and also didn’t work on the instruments.
And no one ever said that Yamaha has slave labor.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:23 pm

ZacharyThornton wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:34 pm
Yes but in those days of borrowing designs it was because the horns weren’t being made anymore or weren’t available in different parts of the world. Just read the stories of what Mr. Wick had to do to get Conn trombones to the UK.
That is not what is happening now. Designs are being stolen because another company can make it cheaper by not paying its employees a fair rate and by using subpar materials. This is modern day slave labor that we pretend doesn’t exist because the practice makes products cheaper for us. I guess we ignore it when it is the only way to get a product like electronics. Why should we when it comes to musical instruments?
ZacharyThornton....you do bring up some valid points here. However....in the world of musical instruments, the inexperienced laborers and mediocre materials will usually result in subpar instruments. Subpar or inconsistent instruments usually don't last very long on the market with musicians....who tend to be very particular consumers. I think the market will eventually take care of itself. The present world might be flooded with these "subpar instruments." Over time, the lower quality instruments will likely fade away because consumer awareness will rise and the demand for cheaper instruments will drop. Why do I hear Elton John singing "Circle of Life" in the background?
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:29 pm

ZacharyThornton wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:13 pm
But Yamahas weren’t cheaper or lesser quality. People said that who didn’t know what they were talking about and also didn’t work on the instruments.
And no one ever said that Yamaha has slave labor.
But Yamaha's bread and butter in the music industry has been.....copy other outstanding instruments. They did it in the 1970's. I was a customer at Dillon's music store in the 1990s when they came through and bought oodles of instruments for their R & D department. The newer Xeno models are based off standard Bach models. The list goes on and on. What is that phrase?......"Copying is the best form of flattery."
Brian D. Hinkley - Player, Teacher, Technician and Trombone Enthusiast
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Crazy4Tbone86 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:30 pm

Bravo Gabe......you stated how I feel. But you say it more elegantly!
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Bach5G » Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:04 pm

I think it’s been a long time - 50 years? - since one can accuse Yam of copying other manufacturer’s instruments. Doug Yeo wrote an article about working with Yamaha on his 622 bass. It might be worth reading. There’s a video too.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by ZacharyThornton » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:05 pm

And and the Yamaha copies where of Conn instruments that were being made poorly at the time and weren’t easily available. Also again: they used good materials and labor.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Posaunus » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:28 pm

Benchmarking vs Copying

I spent many years in product development, most in very competitive markets where other companies had products that served similar purposes. (Although our products had nothing to do with musical instruments.) Our objective was to develop and sell products that were better in at least several important aspects (function, performance, durability, simplicity, manufacturabilty, maintainability, patentability, appearance, price, …). In order to succeed, we had to know everything possible about the competitors’ products. Did we measure them and copy them? Never! Did we take a close look at them, carefully analyze them, interview users about their strengths and weaknesses, get all the available public and private information we could, etc.? Of course.

This process is called benchmarking. We systematically compared our proposed product’s features and benefits to each of the competitors’. If we thought we could successfully compete, we would proceed to finish the design and introduce the product. If not, it was (literally) back to the drawing boards.

I’m proud to say that our teams succeeded more often than not. And we never copied anyone else’s designs.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by BGuttman » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:49 pm

Posaunus, I understand where you are coming from.

Problem is, there are some competitors out there who have less morals against copying. Look at the Intellectual Property thefts recently discovered done by Russia and China. They are not benchmarking. They are copying. You especially know it's not benchmarking when the brand name sounds a little like a respected brand.

Look at all the counterfeit high fashion items coming from South Asia. Some of the counterfeits are actually bein made in factories that make the genuine article after the regular production has gone out the door.

I seriously suspect that the Russian COVID vaccine was stolen from one of the many groups in the US and Europe who were working diligently a year ago. They ignored protocol and skipped the testing phases to be able to reveal it quicker.
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MagnumH
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by MagnumH » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:23 pm

This got a long way off topic and, whilst a valid discussion, is perhaps more useful in the tangents subtopic. I suspect it’s not particularly useful to the OP to have it here.

To the OP - the best advice is always to try them if possible. In real life situations, as best you can - in store is fine for a taster but “on the job” is the truest test of how a horn feels to you.

Whilst you list some fine instruments, if I were you I’d be most tempted to buy something used and reputable through here, or through a trusted seller like Brass Exchange, Horn Guys, Dillons, etc. Wherever is close to you. The markup and resale value is obviously much better on used horns, and it gives you a little more financial freedom to try things as you figure out what works for you. I.e if you buy a great used bass for $1200 + shipping in here, chances are you can sell it on to somebody else for the same amount if it isn’t working out. That’ll help you identify what may or may not be working for you too.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by WGWTR180 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:02 am

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:23 pm
ZacharyThornton wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:34 pm
Yes but in those days of borrowing designs it was because the horns weren’t being made anymore or weren’t available in different parts of the world. Just read the stories of what Mr. Wick had to do to get Conn trombones to the UK.
That is not what is happening now. Designs are being stolen because another company can make it cheaper by not paying its employees a fair rate and by using subpar materials. This is modern day slave labor that we pretend doesn’t exist because the practice makes products cheaper for us. I guess we ignore it when it is the only way to get a product like electronics. Why should we when it comes to musical instruments?
ZacharyThornton....you do bring up some valid points here. However....in the world of musical instruments, the inexperienced laborers and mediocre materials will usually result in subpar instruments. Subpar or inconsistent instruments usually don't last very long on the market with musicians....who tend to be very particular consumers. I think the market will eventually take care of itself. The present world might be flooded with these "subpar instruments." Over time, the lower quality instruments will likely fade away because consumer awareness will rise and the demand for cheaper instruments will drop. Why do I hear Elton John singing "Circle of Life" in the background?
There are mediocre materials being used in the making of instruments here in the good 'ole USA and some of those instruments are considered boutique. Think about how much more mediocre those materials are that are used in instruments that can't catch a cold. Just sayin'.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by hornbuilder » Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:59 am

WGWTR180 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:56 am
I wouldn't necessarily think you'll use the same air stream for bass trombone as you do the tuba so I wouldn't concentrate on "generally putting a lot of air through the instrument" as a given.
Just because you "can", does not mean you "should". A bass trombone isn't a tuba, and does not use the same type of air.
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by dukesboneman » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:44 am

Just my suggestion - If you`re just getting into Bass Trombone, why not a used single trigger bass?
I good Yamaha 321 or bach 50B. Why throw all the extra trigger combinations into the mix right away.
Now , to your other point on air.
The Bass Trombone is not a "Tuba with a slide". You`ll have to earn how to use your air differently.
as in any "serious" double, you have to re-learn to play a new and different instrument.
Ex. Just because you`re a good trumpet player doesn`t mean you`ll be a really good Flugel-horn player
Two completely different horns. You can tell right away , that Player a has really practiced Flugel.
Same with Piccolo.
I ran into that having played Bb Tuba for years and then getting 1st Eb Tuba. Wow , different animal altogether .
Take your time and learn it correctly , which will save you aggravation later on and make playing the new horn a lot more fun
Justconfusediam
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by Justconfusediam » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:07 am

Hi all,
A big Thank you for all your comments and suggestions on this matter. It’s gives me a lot of food for thought.

The Air issue is of course how to correctly manage it in regard to Trombone playing and not Tuba. Time( patience) and consistent effort is the key to success in any endeavor to reach a proficiency.

I will update the feed when I have chosen my weapon. The fun begins.......
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Re: First Bass Trombone suggestions

Post by FOSSIL » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:48 am

Justconfusediam wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:07 am
Hi all,
A big Thank you for all your comments and suggestions on this matter. It’s gives me a lot of food for thought.

The Air issue is of course how to correctly manage it in regard to Trombone playing and not Tuba. Time( patience) and consistent effort is the key to success in any endeavor to reach a proficiency.

I will update the feed when I have chosen my weapon. The fun begins.......
Here's a slightly different recommendation....many makers have, and do, produce fine bass trombones....It's very important to get a good example, whatever the make so get your prospective purchase tested by the best bass trombone player in your area...offer cash for the service and take the advice.

Chris
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