Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post Reply
Davidus1
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:00 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Davidus1 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:40 pm

What are your thoughts about the Valve trombone? I personally love to listen to a great valve trombone player. Loved the Russ Garcia recordings with Maynard on Valve Bone, Bob Brookmeyer, Rob McConnell and Boss Brass, Rich Matteson (Euph mostly). It seems that there are many people that don't like the valve bone much. What about you?
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by BGuttman » Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:41 pm

Valve trombones were essentially wiped from the Orchestral scene about 100 years ago. Only F and Gb valves are used.

For Jazz, anything goes. Slide trombones seem the most popular, but there have been great valve trombone players over the years. Juan Tizol was one.

I think thpe main reason valve trombone is not used much is that most of them have NO provision for modifying the intonation. Trumpets have saddles and triggers for the valve slides, but generally not valve trombones. This limits their ability to achieve the intonation inflection that is so common.

Valve trombones do allow for great rapidity and would be de rigeur for Be-Bop solos that are streams of notes. That's where the main value is as I see it.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
User avatar
Finetales
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:31 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Finetales » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:00 pm

There are plenty of examples out there of valve trombone playing that should legitimize the instrument in anyone's eyes in my opinion. Juan Tizol's playing in the Ellington orchestra (as Bruce mentioned), for example. My personal favorite is this video from the Royal Concertgebouw trombones' Facebook page, which makes me sad that people don't use valve trombones on Italian opera repertoire actually written for them more often.

I think there are a few undeserved issues with the valve trombone that cause people to dislike it:

1) People think that it should sound exactly like a slide trombone. To me, the fact that it doesn't is what makes it legitimate. In the right hands it has a unique voice that is underutilized. At least one of Lou Dowdeswell's big band videos has one of the slide trombonists playing valve trombone for some solo passages. You couldn't get the same effect if he had just played it on his normal trombone. Played sweetly, it sounds like a flugelhorn down an octave.

2) Compared to slide trombone it's pretty ungainly to hold, but so are double-valve bass trombones and nobody has any problem with those. Since we can accept it sounds different from slide trombone, I don't think it needs to look like one either, and for this reason I think the valve trombone's compact brother, the marching trombone/flugabone, is a better design. They sound essentially the same but are much more comfortable to hold, not to mention being ultra compact. My flugabone is one of my favorite instruments to pull out and play.

3) Because of the valve trombone's disuse in professional settings (excluding the jazz soloists already mentioned in the OP), there are few valve trombones on the market (new or used, really) and most of them are student models. If the first valve trombone you try is a student model or marching instrument, you probably won't be super impressed. In my experience these kinds of instruments are extraordinarily mouthpiece sensitive. I tried a shallow mouthpiece in my flugabone when I first got it and it had an awful blat when you played anywhere above mezzo-forte, which I feel like is a sound often associated with all valve trombones. But I put in a deeper, V-cup tenor mouthpiece and it sings, and using a small shank ultra-deep euphonium mouthpiece sounds really nice too. I feel like a really nice, purpose-built performance instrument wouldn't have these issues and would be a real pleasure to play, especially if it was a larger bore than the tiny .481"-.485" that a lot of them are. If it wasn't hideously overpriced (looking at you, $3,500 Bach V16) I bet quite a few jazz trombonists and euphonium players would be interested in one. As is it's certainly a different sound than the piston bass trumpets some jazz trombonists double on.
Davidus1
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:00 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Davidus1 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:13 pm

BGuttman wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:41 pm
Valve trombones were essentially wiped from the Orchestral scene about 100 years ago. Only F and Gb valves are used.

For Jazz, anything goes. Slide trombones seem the most popular, but there have been great valve trombone players over the years. Juan Tizol was one.

I think thpe main reason valve trombone is not used much is that most of them have NO provision for modifying the intonation. Trumpets have saddles and triggers for the valve slides, but generally not valve trombones. This limits their ability to achieve the intonation inflection that is so common.

Valve trombones do allow for great rapidity and would be de rigeur for Be-Bop solos that are streams of notes. That's where the main value is as I see it.
I should have clarified that I was more interested in uses for jazz which you covered with your post. You are correct about not having a provision for intonation. I'm sure getting a slide kicker put on a horn isn't necessarily cheap to have done but is almost a necessity. Thanks for the info!
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
Davidus1
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:00 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Davidus1 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:17 pm

Finetales wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:00 pm
There are plenty of examples out there of valve trombone playing that should legitimize the instrument in anyone's eyes in my opinion. Juan Tizol's playing in the Ellington orchestra (as Bruce mentioned), for example. My personal favorite is this video from the Royal Concertgebouw trombones' Facebook page, which makes me sad that people don't use valve trombones on Italian opera repertoire actually written for them more often.

I think there are a few undeserved issues with the valve trombone that cause people to dislike it:

1) People think that it should sound exactly like a slide trombone. To me, the fact that it doesn't is what makes it legitimate. In the right hands it has a unique voice that is underutilized. At least one of Lou Dowdeswell's big band videos has one of the slide trombonists playing valve trombone for some solo passages. You couldn't get the same effect if he had just played it on his normal trombone. Played sweetly, it sounds like a flugelhorn down an octave.

2) Compared to slide trombone it's pretty ungainly to hold, but so are double-valve bass trombones and nobody has any problem with those. Since we can accept it sounds different from slide trombone, I don't think it needs to look like one either, and for this reason I think the valve trombone's compact brother, the marching trombone/flugabone, is a better design. They sound essentially the same but are much more comfortable to hold, not to mention being ultra compact. My flugabone is one of my favorite instruments to pull out and play.

3) Because of the valve trombone's disuse in professional settings (excluding the jazz soloists already mentioned in the OP), there are few valve trombones on the market (new or used, really) and most of them are student models. If the first valve trombone you try is a student model or marching instrument, you probably won't be super impressed. In my experience these kinds of instruments are extraordinarily mouthpiece sensitive. I tried a shallow mouthpiece in my flugabone when I first got it and it had an awful blat when you played anywhere above mezzo-forte, which I feel like is a sound often associated with all valve trombones. But I put in a deeper, V-cup tenor mouthpiece and it sings, and using a small shank ultra-deep euphonium mouthpiece sounds really nice too. I feel like a really nice, purpose-built performance instrument wouldn't have these issues and would be a real pleasure to play, especially if it was a larger bore than the tiny .481"-.485" that a lot of them are. If it wasn't hideously overpriced (looking at you, $3,500 Bach V16) I bet quite a few jazz trombonists and euphonium players would be interested in one. As is it's certainly a different sound than the piston bass trumpets some jazz trombonists double on.
Completely agree with you about the different sound! Definitely different and I too like that about the valve bone. I wish King still made the Flugabone. I liked that instrument. Haven't played one in quite some time though. The offerings for valve trombones are lacking as you mention. Bach is most definitely highly overpriced. I wouldn't even consider paying for one for what they are asking! Thanks for the post and the information!
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
imsevimse
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by imsevimse » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:25 am

The King 3b is an acceptable valve trombone by me 😊

I think I bought mine 30 years ago I bought it with an extra slide and used this as my main instrument while I was working as a music teacher on all brass.

The idea was I could use the valves when I had the trumpet students so they could be helped with fingering. After a while I began to carry a trumpet because they also needed to hear the right sound not to be confused.

The King 3b valve trombone I used was good though. I used it in a big band on third just to practice but the others asked me to use the slide instead. The valve section is banned from brass bands and symphony orchestras today. It had its place in the millitare windorchestra here next to trombones at one time, but the trombone-like instrument wanted back then was called "basun" and the parts they played was called Tenor. There could be two tenor parts (I-II) and three trombones in a Swedish Windorchestra and it was the Swedish "Ahlberg-Ohlsson" basun sound that was expected, and that is not the same sound as a modern valve-trombone.

I think the modern valve-trombone is rare today. I heard one with the "Bohuslän Big Band" 5-6 years ago when they played a Duke Ellington concert. One of the players used it for "Caravan".

The Swedish "basun" is heard in historical music only. There is a sextett-setting that still exists and is asked for at garden partys or other occasions where live background music is suitable with Eb-cornet, Bb-cornet, tenor horn in Eb, basun I-II, tuba and drums. It is seven musicians but it is called a sextett anyway. There are numrous (old from 17th century) to this date popular songs transposed for this setting and I guess thats why there are a few players who own and play them.

I own a basun from 1901 that belonged to my grandfather who was a musician. I play it sometimes for sentimental reasons. I play the same songs he used to play when I was young. I still remember the sound and the beautiful lip vibrato he had. I try to play the instrument just as he did. Unfortunately I only remember a few of the songs.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
whitbey
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:44 am
Location: Rochester Michigan North of Detroit.
Contact:

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by whitbey » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:53 am

I bought a valve bone 40 years ago. I leaned valve fingerings better. I learned there was no way to get it in tune. And therefor also learned what the woodshed was for. A trumpet player made an offer for it and I leaned that was a good thing.

Later I developed neurological trouble and lost my fast tongue. So a few years ago after a divorce that allowed me to buy all the horns I wanted I took an older F attachment and had it reworked into a small bore jazz horn as a first valve. That is Ab by the way. With a first valve one can play quite fast. Use a slide with alternate positions and the sky is the limit. Also hardly anyone even notices the valve. It looks like an Edwards trombone.

I play an F scale fast with these fingerings. F in 1st, G in T-2nd, A in 2nd, Bb in T-3, C in 3, D in T-2, E in 2 and F a short T-2 then back down. Or slide from E to F in 1st if that is where you are going to land. The valve does the fast articulations and you just blow thought the horn. This kind of alternate position and valve can do most anything you can do with a 3 valve horn plus be a regular slide horn in tune.

Pictures of this horn are in my profile.
Basbasun
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:03 am

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Basbasun » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:51 pm

Slide trombone and valve trombone are different instruments, they sound different, but sometimes there have been valve players doing good jobs in trombones sections. Bob Brookmeyer used a valve trombone with triggers on the valve slides for many years. Well the valve trombone wasn´t really wiped out hundred years ago in symphony orchestras everywhere. In Scandinavia the valve trombone was used in many orchestras, and today the valve trombone is used in the Royal Opera Hous in Stockholm when operas written by Verdi and other composers from that era. That makes the Italian operas from that age sound very much better in my ears. The valve trombone really has a voice of its own.
sf105
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:28 pm

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by sf105 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:34 pm

I've seen valve trombones used regularly in Italian community bands. So just move there... :)
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by BGuttman » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:01 pm

sf105 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:34 pm
I've seen valve trombones used regularly in Italian community bands. So just move there... :)
Also in Portuguese and Mexican bands.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
User avatar
Finetales
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:31 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Finetales » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:55 pm

The valve trombonists in Mexican banda are insane (in a good way), as are the rest of the musicians. It's a really remarkable style of music.
Kbiggs
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Kbiggs » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:53 am

Finetales wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:55 pm
The valve trombonists in Mexican banda are insane (in a good way), as are the rest of the musicians. It's a really remarkable style of music.
Agreed! If I’m in a down mood, I can listen to some banda music, which helps brighten the day. I’m often amazed at how tight these bands sound.
Finetales wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:00 pm
My personal favorite is this video from the Royal Concertgebouw trombones' Facebook page, which makes me sad that people don't use valve trombones on Italian opera repertoire actually written for them more often.
What a testament to the valve trombone in orchestral music!
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
User avatar
LeTromboniste
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am
Location: Basel, Switzerland

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by LeTromboniste » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:11 am

Interestingly, it is relatively frequent to hear Italian opera on valve trombones (not widespread but still, occasionally), but how often do we hear them on Bruckner? I think it's telling about how we still perceive valve trombones that orchestral players will use them for stuff that is seen as "lighter" music, but be much more reluctant to consider using them on the big serious germanic symphonic stuff.
Maximilien Brisson
Basbasun
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:03 am

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Basbasun » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:39 am

Yes that is correct. Lots of European music was written with the valve trombone in mind. The trombone was hold back in favor of the valved bone. It is less the 200 years ago, thanks to Anton Hansen, that the trombone started to come back in Sweden.
Ndwood
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 9:33 am

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Ndwood » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:36 pm

I think part of the difference regarding performance of Bruckner is that it’s not that uncommon for the trombonists in German and Austrian orchestras to perform on traditional instruments either from the time period or fairly similarly proportioned, and valve trombones in Germany, Austria, and Bohemia were built to similar proportions as slide trombones (right?). Valves can change the way way a horn plays but there are also a lot of other factors that are at least as important. One way I look at it is that for the most part valve trombones just stopped evolving after they fell out of fashion. Most have a bore of .500” or below because most slide trombones did as well.

But I also am curious about what causes a valved note to play different than an open note. I just picked up a Bohland & Fuchs bass trombone that I guess is from between 1904-1918. The open horn plays pretty well but the difference between open and valved notes is really audible and gets worse (of course) as you add valves; it’s already noticable with the first valve but 2+3 is pretty bad. Why do other valved instruments not suffer from this problem but the trombone does and are there ways to mitigate it? I’ve never had a chance to play one but everyone’s told me the Conn 90G doesn’t suffer frok these issues and sounds basically like the 8H it’s built around - why does it not have the same issues other valve trombones do?
Kbiggs
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Kbiggs » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:50 pm

I wasn’t aware that there was a tradition of playing valve trombone in German classical music, esp. around the time of Bruckner. I suppose I’d assumed that bands used valve trombones for the most part, whereas orchestras used slide trombones.
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
User avatar
LeTromboniste
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am
Location: Basel, Switzerland

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by LeTromboniste » Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:19 pm

Germany had mostly slide trombones as far as I know, but there were several decades after the invention of the valve where the valve trombone was the standard in much of Austria and Bohemia. The Vienna Court Opera (now State Opera) had valve trombones starting in the 1830's, and when they eventually switched back to slide trombones in 1883, they had trouble finding trombonists who were able to or willing to learn to play with a slide. Howard Weiner spoke of that a few times in the old forum and in publications. Also articles by Ken Shifrin IIRC. There was also a fairly thorough article in the HBSJ of last year on the subject specifically of Bruckner and valve trombones.
Maximilien Brisson
User avatar
Finetales
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:31 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Finetales » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:42 pm

I would imagine that playing a King 3B valve trombone on Bruckner is no more historically correct soundwise (compared to a Romantic-era German valve trombone) than playing it on a King 3B slide trombone.
Davidus1
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:00 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Davidus1 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:34 pm

imsevimse wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:25 am
The King 3b is an acceptable valve trombone by me 😊

I think I bought mine 30 years ago I bought it with an extra slide and used this as my main instrument while I was working as a music teacher on all brass.

The idea was I could use the valves when I had the trumpet students so they could be helped with fingering. After a while I began to carry a trumpet because they also needed to hear the right sound not to be confused.

The King 3b valve trombone I used was good though. I used it in a big band on third just to practice but the others asked me to use the slide instead. The valve section is banned from brass bands and symphony orchestras today. It had its place in the millitare windorchestra here next to trombones at one time, but the trombone-like instrument wanted back then was called "basun" and the parts they played was called Tenor. There could be two tenor parts (I-II) and three trombones in a Swedish Windorchestra and it was the Swedish "Ahlberg-Ohlsson" basun sound that was expected, and that is not the same sound as a modern valve-trombone.

I think the modern valve-trombone is rare today. I heard one with the "Bohuslän Big Band" 5-6 years ago when they played a Duke Ellington concert. One of the players used it for "Caravan".

The Swedish "basun" is heard in historical music only. There is a sextett-setting that still exists and is asked for at garden partys or other occasions where live background music is suitable with Eb-cornet, Bb-cornet, tenor horn in Eb, basun I-II, tuba and drums. It is seven musicians but it is called a sextett anyway. There are numrous (old from 17th century) to this date popular songs transposed for this setting and I guess thats why there are a few players who own and play them.

I own a basun from 1901 that belonged to my grandfather who was a musician. I play it sometimes for sentimental reasons. I play the same songs he used to play when I was young. I still remember the sound and the beautiful lip vibrato he had. I try to play the instrument just as he did. Unfortunately I only remember a few of the songs.

/Tom
Thanks for the post. I bought a Getzen Valve bone with the slide back when I was in the Army Band. I found the Getzen to be too stuffy. I would like to play a King Valve Bone.....never tried one. Thanks for the post.
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
Davidus1
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:00 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Davidus1 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:34 pm

sf105 wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:34 pm
I've seen valve trombones used regularly in Italian community bands. So just move there... :)
I'll pass on that. :biggrin:
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
Kbiggs
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Kbiggs » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:58 pm

Just out of curiosity, has anyone compared a piston valve to a rotary valve trombone? If so, how did they compare? I know that Červény and Mirafone and others still make rotary valve trombones in 3 and 4 valve configurations.

Tom, is a rotary valve trombone similar to the old basun?
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
imsevimse
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2018 10:43 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by imsevimse » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:16 am

Kbiggs wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:58 pm
Just out of curiosity, has anyone compared a piston valve to a rotary valve trombone? If so, how did they compare? I know that Červény and Mirafone and others still make rotary valve trombones in 3 and 4 valve configurations.

Tom, is a rotary valve trombone similar to the old basun?
A piston trombone like the King 3b compared to a rotary valve trombone such as the Swedish "ventil-basun" are very different (read more for comparison) When it comes to a German rotary valve I think it looks more or less the same as an Swedish basun, but not absolutely sure since I don't know much of Miraphone and other brands, but if I compare a King 3b valve trombone to the Swedish made ventilbasun by Ahlberg & Ohlsson there are big differences.

The King 3b valve trombone is .481 with an 8" bell. Plays modern and (what I think) could blend with a trombone section in a big band in the right hands. It can be played both soft and loud. Both mellow and edgy. The big problem is the intonation. It is not as open as a valve-less . 481 horn and gets a little more harsh when pushed.

The Swedish Ahlberg Ohlsson "ventil basun" is soft. It can't be pushed that much so a modern big band forte will not work. To describe it's sound is difficult because there is no equivalent sound to point at but I think wide, soft, mellow and lyrical covers most of it. It is also often played with a constant vibrato. The same function as an euphonium, but not at all that full body of sound that can be deep and dominant. The basun is much more lyrical. The one I got from my grandfather from 1901 has a wide bell about 9". I have another one from about 1920 with a small bell that was called the solo model. For fingerings the 1st valve lowers a whole step. 2nd lowers one half step and the 3rd (look out!!!) lowers two whole steps. This gives a different fingering chart. I think it is the same on German instruments. Compared to a modern American valve trombone the 3rd valve lowers one and a half step.

The Swedish Ahlberg & Ohlsson company existed 1850-1959. Back in the old days the name basun could be used for both valve- and slide trombones as they were called "ventil-basun" and "drag-basun". My grandfather never used the word trombone. To him any trombone was called basun. Today most use the word basun as short for "ventil basun" and it is very rare to hear the word "drag basun". The latter is just called a trombone by all.

/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:51 pm, edited 7 times in total.
"Do your best and then do better" ttf_watermailonman
timothy42b
Posts: 186
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:51 am
Location: central Virginia

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by timothy42b » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:14 am

Davidus1 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:34 pm

Thanks for the post. I bought a Getzen Valve bone with the slide back when I was in the Army Band. I found the Getzen to be too stuffy. I would like to play a King Valve Bone.....never tried one. Thanks for the post.
I have the Getzen valve and slide combination. I didn't find the valve side stuffy, I just found it impossible to hold. Maybe there's a way but I couldn't figure it out, got carpal tunnel symptoms in about ten minutes.

I looked for a way to use Ken's cantilever support, but the tubing at the balance point was so thin I was afraid to try attaching it.
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by BGuttman » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:01 am

I think you are supposed to hold a valve trombone much the way you would hold a trumpet. Both hands on the valve cluster. Elbows out.

If you try to hold it like a slide trombone you will be very uncomfortable since the valve section makes the instrument "nose heavy" relative to the bell brace.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
Kbiggs
Posts: 110
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:46 am
Location: Vancouver WA

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Kbiggs » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:15 am

Very interesting! Thanks, Tom!
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
Davidus1
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:00 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Davidus1 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:43 am

timothy42b wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:14 am
Davidus1 wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:34 pm

Thanks for the post. I bought a Getzen Valve bone with the slide back when I was in the Army Band. I found the Getzen to be too stuffy. I would like to play a King Valve Bone.....never tried one. Thanks for the post.
I have the Getzen valve and slide combination. I didn't find the valve side stuffy, I just found it impossible to hold. Maybe there's a way but I couldn't figure it out, got carpal tunnel symptoms in about ten minutes.

I looked for a way to use Ken's cantilever support, but the tubing at the balance point was so thin I was afraid to try attaching it.
You may be right about it not being stuffy. My approach back then was different to playing. I was a tuba and bass bone player and tended to pick up the valve bone and play it the same. That obviously is not a recipe for success. I've since changed my approach to bone vs tuba/bass bone and have improved. I agree with you. It was difficult to hold!
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
walldaja
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:51 pm

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by walldaja » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:23 pm

Most recent jazz player I've heard is Kiku Collins with a valve bone. She often doubles on trumpet / v-bone on her various CDs. One is "Here With Me". She has a real nice sound because she has mastered the horn as opposed to a person wanting an easy way to mimic a t-bone without learning the slide and techniques required. Her partner is an awesome t-bone player, David Gibson.
Dave

Antoine Courtois AC280BO with Wedge 5G
Getzen 351 Tenor with Yamaha 51D
Jean Baptiste EUPCOMS with Wedge 5G
Davidus1
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:00 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by Davidus1 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:24 pm

Not familiar with her. I'll check it out. Thanks for the post.
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
User avatar
BrassedOn
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:06 am

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by BrassedOn » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:55 pm

Of all, I think Bob Brookmeyer really laid it out there for valve trombonists.
He set the bar with Gerry Mulligan quartet. I think he played Conn valve trombone.

I need to get this Zoot Sims recording, a chorus at 3:20.
And here at around 25:00 he kind a drifts from trumpetish phrasing to saxish phrasing.

Rob McConnell was totally on it. Here's a taste at 1:30

Raul de Souza is new to me. Maybe no problem with vbone!


The Getzen vb blew small for me. Rich Matteson had a custom Getzen, but I don't know if that was produced.
I think the 3B valve bone was best I've played.

I now have a Blessing marching trombone, which is basically a tightly wrapped valve bone. 8 inch bell Fits all my standard mutes unlike a few brands that have a larger bell on their marching brass. Took FOREVER to break in the valves but responds a bit more like my trombones. But yes could use a slide trigger.

There is always bass trumpet. Not for bone section, but could be fun in a combo. I've played a nice Bach bass trumpet but seemed a lot of resistance.
"Do less, better."
1973 King 3B Silver Sonic
1987 Bach 42BO
1994ish Getzen Eterna 1062 Dave Taylor (stacked)
User avatar
King2bPlus
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:42 pm
Location: Howell, NJ

Re: Valve Trombone Acceptance

Post by King2bPlus » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:01 pm

Mike Fahn is probably the best of the current valve trombonists. Plays the slide bone too. Has at least 2 CD's where he's the leader. Close Your Eyes.....and Listen(2002) and East and West(2006). Played w/Matt Catingub and Dick Berk (and others I'm sure) on the west coast. Been in NY for a long time now. Definitely worth a listen. Plays a Conn...think he's got 2 Conn valve bones.
Ken Jackson
Post Reply

Return to “Instruments”