Is bigger always better?

[Bonehenge]

I started teaching at a new school this year and was dismayed to learn that beginners are started on .547 bore trigger horns and a 5G mouthpiece, no exceptions. I have beginners who in the second month of school cannot produce a 4th line F consistently because they are playing cavernous equipment. I tried to make the case for at least starting them on 6.5's but the band director (not a brass player) is convinced that big equipment makes a big sound, no matter what. I've asked for individual exceptions, but the director acts as if I'm the idiot for even suggesting it. The 7th and 8th grade players are so tight that one 8th grader (in the top band, mind you) produces a spitting sound along with his barely recognizable trombone sound. Every 7th and 8th grader I have compensates in some way, whether they're mashing their lips together vertically or stretching horizontally into the dreaded "smiley" embouchure. I have very little time to do embouchure work with any of my students because they are all expected to work on Region etudes that most of them have no hope of learning in time for a late October audition, because most of them do not have the limited range it takes to play the etudes. None of my 7th or 8th graders can produce a fifth partial F with any consistency. I'm not saying it's hopeless. They're good, bright kids, but every one of them is handicapped from the very first time they touch a trombone because they are trying to play on equipment that is too fucking huge. Should I just embrace this band director's philosophy and put all of her trombones on a 1G? Better yet, a tuba mouthpiece will fit a .547 bore receiver. Why not go really big? Why have big sounds when you can have HUGE sounds, right?

[Burgerbob]

Texas?

[Bonehenge]

Of course. Where else? Selmer should take a .5G and label it the MAGATone mouthpiece.

[Chronos91]

Do you think they'd be swayed by evidence? If you have access to some smaller equipment, you could maybe let them see the difference that you could get by letting the kids use appropriate mouthpieces and horns with some recording A&B set ups.

How did a non-brass player even get an opinion that strong on the matter?

[Posaunus]

How did a non-brass player even get an opinion that strong on the matter?

Band director got her music education from a school in Texas?

[marccromme]

As we say on our side of the pond: Everything is bigger in Texas. ...

[BPBasso]

Of course. Where else? Selmer should take a .5G and label it the MAGATone mouthpiece.

That's a good one. Gunna have to steal that.

[Bonehenge]

As we say on our side of the pond: Everything is bigger in Texas. ...

Including the steaming piles of verbal bullshit. Oh, and also politicized shock troops to send to states that the fuehrer doesn't like. We have those, too.

[BEngland]

Maybe you can tie the idea of playing a large mouthpiece on trombone with playing on a strong reed for a woodwind player.
What strength reeds are the beginning clarinet and saxophones starting on? Playing on a 5G as a beginner is a lot like playing on a strength 4 or 5 reed.

My two cents as a band director.

[Posaunus]

I was quite small when I began playing the trombone in 7th grade. But (as we all did in those days) I started on a small-bore trombone; flourished, and moved to larger equipment when my body and physiology were ready for it. Worked for me and thousands of others. No way could I have done this starting on a 0.547" bore/5G mouthpiece - a recipe for failure!

[BGuttman]

Reminds me of the story of the Band Director who thought a 1C was a nice trumpet mouthpiece, so why wouldn't a 1G be good for the trombone section?

[atopper333]

I was quite small when I began playing the trombone in 7th grade. But (as we all did in those days) I started on a small-bore trombone; flourished, and moved to larger equipment when my body and physiology were ready for it. Worked for me and thousands of others. No way could I have done this starting on a 0.547" bore/5G mouthpiece - a recipe for failure!

Same here! Started on a YSL-352 in the 7th grade. By 8th I was on a .525 bore Holton 602F and stayed there for awhile. I really wasn’t up to my old man’s .547 TR-158 until Junior/Senior year. It is most definitely a recipe for failure and a way to drive younger players from the horn in frustration….

[tbdana]

I was quite small when I began playing the trombone in 7th grade. But (as we all did in those days) I started on a small-bore trombone; flourished, and moved to larger equipment when my body and physiology were ready for it. Worked for me and thousands of others. No way could I have done this starting on a 0.547" bore/5G mouthpiece - a recipe for failure!

Yeah, this. I played a King 2B with a 12C mouthpiece in 7th and 8th grade. It was appropriate to my body and muscle development.

In fact, maybe you'd get the lights to come on if you analogized it to lifting weights.

"You wouldn't start a 7th or 8th grader on heavy weights, you'd start them on light weights and let them increase the load as they mature and build strength and body infrastructure. It's the same with trombone. It's a muscle and body infrastructure thing. Trombone is far more athletic than, say, clarinet.

"Playing big equipment is like lifting big weights. It's inappropriate in kids that age, and can hurt them. You don't want to hurt them, do you, band director? You don't want angry parents coming after you, do you? Maybe you should start them on equipment more appropriate to their age. You should consult, oh, I dunno, maybe a trombone teacher?"

[hyperbolica]

My parents got me an 88h when I was 11. I had started on a King 602 probably a year before that. 11 was definitely too young for an 88h. It was too heavy for my wrist, too heavy to carry in a case, too big to get that big sound on


But I did eventually grow into it. Being on a too big horn didn't stunt my growth or prevent me from improving. I'm not saying the teacher is right to do this, just that it might not be the end of the world. There might be other battles more worthy of your time.

[GabrielRice]

I'm of two minds about this. One mind agrees with you completely.

The other mind says, "well...there are tuba players the same age, right?" Any tuba takes more air than a .547 bore trombone and any tuba mouthpiece is a whole lot bigger than a 5G. Obviously they're playing an octave lower, but it's not about size (though I can't even imagine anybody starting a beginner tuba on the monster 6/4 tubas the pros in most American orchestras play).

I have more of a problem with forcing the kids to play repertoire they're not ready for.

As an aside, I once fielded an angry phone call from the home teacher of a HS junior I had at summer camp who was overblowing a 6-1/2AL on her 88HO. There was a 5G in her case, so I suggested she play it. He told me he never let his students play anything larger than a 6-1/2AL until they could play Bolero consistently. I agreed to go with his plan, and we worked instead on controlling the pitch and tone quality on the 6-1/2AL. It worked out fine...that student recently graduated from a major music school.

[GabrielRice]

A suggestion: get them some kind of support device to help them hold the instruments up. I like the straps from Yamaha or Leather Specialties myself, but there are others of course. That would probably help beginners on real beginner trombones too...

[StephenK]

Getting some support sounds like a plan.
Here is one of Peter Moore aged 12 years with a Rath support.
https://youtu.be/MBFWLRbkUGY?si=vhZQbY3tsPZJ5pub

[MahlerMusic]

Air support is what I work the most on with my Daughter (Grade 9). I can't imagen trying to get her to fill my 88h. Playing the lowest notes on a trombone is doable very quickly (low E) but getting a relaxed high range takes years of work and muscle building. Why handicap a young player from day 1.

I'm sure many of us can take a King 2B and sound full and loud in a middle school band. But the mental game of having a larger instrument does come into play. I know I started playing louder and fuller when I switched to a medium bore.

[tbdana]

When we learn to fly do we start with an F-15 fighter jet?
When we learn weightlifting do we start with a 500 kilo deadlift?
When we learn to cook do we begin with croquembouche?
When we first start running do we begin with a marathon?
When we learn to drive do we start with a tractor-trailer big rig?
When we learn math do we begin with differential calculus?

To me, it sounds as if this school band director has goals outside of his environment. He wants big sounds! Great, if you're the conductor of a professional symphony orchestra. But is that best for the small children he's teaching to play? He wants this for his own ears, because he likes to hear big sound. But if he's not the conductor of a professional symphony, if he's a school teacher of young children, perhaps his goal should be more aligned with ease of student learning than what he likes to listen to.

I've never flown anything bigger than a paper airplane. I suppose, as an adult, I could jump right to learning to fly an F-15, but is that the best way for me to learn flying? Or would that just force me to grapple with the unnecessary difficulties of piloting something that gives the instructor a woody?

[EriKon]

When we learn to fly do we start with an F-15 fighter jet?
When we learn weightlifting do we start with a 500 kilo deadlift?
When we learn to cook do we begin with croquembouche?
When we first start running do we begin with a marathon?
When we learn to drive do we start with a tractor-trailer big rig?
When we learn math do we begin with differential calculus?

To me, it sounds as if this school band director has goals outside of his environment. He wants big sounds! Great, if you're the conductor of a professional symphony orchestra. But is that best for the small children he's teaching to play? He wants this for his own ears, because he likes to hear big sound. But if he's not the conductor of a professional symphony, if he's a school teacher of young children, perhaps his goal should be more aligned with ease of student learning than what he likes to listen to.

I've never flown anything bigger than a paper airplane. I suppose, as an adult, I could jump right to learning to fly an F-15, but is that the best way for me to learn flying? Or would that just force me to grapple with the unnecessary difficulties of piloting something that gives the instructor a woody?

I don't find most of these comparisons accurate. After all we're just blowing air through a tube. If it's done correctly it doesn't matter that much on what size it happens. I would still agree tho that it might be easier to start on a small horn. But not like massively.

[JTeagarden]

The thing I found appalling when I moved down to Texas were the number of Bach 42s used in marching bands, thoroughly trashed, of course.

[Posaunus]

The thing I found appalling when I moved down to Texas were the number of Bach 42s used in marching bands, thoroughly trashed, of course.

Ten-gallon hats and ten-gallon trombones. Erverthin's bigger in Texas!