Rutter's Gloria

[hyperbolica]

I have the opportunity to play Rutter's Gloria coming up shortly. It doesn't look too tricky, but does anyone have any insight about the tbone parts or the best recording to listen to?

[BGuttman]

I played this many years ago. If I recall correctly it's only brass. Parts were not hard, but you (and the rest of the ensemble) need to keep your volume under the chorus -- it's really easy to blow over a modest size one.

[Burgerbob]

It's not too hard. Really a blast if you have a good section and a good choir.

Finetales and I absolutely destroyed it last Christmas for a few performances, lots of fun.

[CalgaryTbone]

Fun to play - a little bit of a scramble if a conductor takes it too fast.The one time that happened for me, to be honest it was a choral conductor with sketchy skills who panicked a bit in the 3/4 in one allegros. We managed.

JS

[claf]

Played it on first trumpet, it was a blast to play.
Trumpet part was quite hard, worked on it a lot.
Trombone part did not look as hard, but our first trombone (at the time) did a very good job.

[Posaunus]

... or the best recording to listen to?

The "gold standard" must be Rutter's own recording:
https://johnrutter.com/product/gloria

Available on eBay, Amazon, etc.
Scored for choir, brass, percussion and organ

A lovely piece!

[fsgazda]

... or the best recording to listen to?

The "gold standard" must be Rutter's own recording:
https://johnrutter.com/product/gloria

Available on eBay, Amazon, etc.
Scored for choir, brass, percussion and organ

A lovely piece!

Yeah, that's the one, with The Philip Jones Brass Ensemble.

[TomInME]

But there's that one pickup at the end...

[AndrewMeronek]

I think that the toughest aspect is playing in good time with all the hemiolas and pickups as a group, especially given the typical performance acoustics being reverberant churches.

[hyperbolica]

What instrument is usually used for the bass part? There are only a couple notes below the staff, so a full blown double valve bass seems overkill. This might be perfect for the 1480. What do you think?

[GabrielRice]

Last time I played it I used a single valve bass just because I could. I wouldn't scale down to a small bass like my 70H though.

[Burgerbob]

I'd use a real bass if the choir is capable whatsoever.

[Posaunus]

Last time I played it I used a single valve bass just because I could. I wouldn't scale down to a small bass like my 70H though.

Gabe,
As I understand it, the Conn 70H is a 0.562" bore, 9½" bell, single-valve, TIS bass trombone.
What makes it a "small bass?"
What single valve bass trombones are large enough for this piece?
What trombones did John Rutter have in mind when he composed the Gloria in 1974?
What trombone(s) did the PJBE use on the original Rutter recording? Were they O.K.?

I'd use a real bass if the choir is capable whatsoever.

BurgerBob,
What's a "real bass?"
Must a "real bass" have two valves (not needed for this piece), a 10" bell, and a dual-bore slide?
Would that have made Rutter happier?

[Note that I've not seen the score or played this piece - but I have really enjoyed listening to it.]

[Burgerbob]

BurgerBob,
What's a "real bass?"
Must a "real bass" have two valves (not needed for this piece), a 10" bell, and a dual-bore slide?
Would that have made Rutter happier?

[Note that I've not seen the score or played this piece - but I have really enjoyed listening to it.]

It's more about the tapers in the tuning slide (or J bend) and bell throat than anything else. 70H is small back there, 1480 is even smaller.

[GabrielRice]

As I understand it, the Conn 70H is a 0.562" bore, 9½" bell, single-valve, TIS bass trombone.
What makes it a "small bass?"

What Aidan said. My 70H has a narrow slide, smaller tapers in the bell section, and a smaller bell taper than anything currently sold as a bass trombone. It's smaller than later Conns like the 60/62H, which are a little smaller than a Bach 50.

What trombones did John Rutter have in mind when he composed the Gloria in 1974?
What trombone(s) did the PJBE use on the original Rutter recording? Were they O.K.?

Assuming Ray Premru played on this recording, he would have played his Holton 169, which has tapers like a Bach 50. The tenors were most likely playing Conn 8H and 88Hs.

[blast]

I'd use a real bass if the choir is capable whatsoever.

This has troubled me since it was posted. A 70H is a real bass, as much as any made today. Just different. I have heard staggeringly good playing on the 70H, 71H, 72H, 73H and 83H.
You have to learn how to play them, and in some places that seems to be a lost art.

[Burgerbob]

I'd use a real bass if the choir is capable whatsoever.

This has troubled me since it was posted. A 70H is a real bass, as much as any made today. Just different. I have heard staggeringly good playing on the 70H, 71H, 72H, 73H and 83H.
You have to learn how to play them, and in some places that seems to be a lost art.

Ha! I thought it might. I have a dear friend that sounds amazing on her (double valve) 72H here. But other than that small example, no one is playing the smaller Conns in my area. Decibels are one thing, the sound itself is another.

I happen to have a '55 70H on the way... very excited to play one again. But I still won't be choosing it for the Gloria, methinks.

[hyperbolica]

The recordings of the music are very bright, it would be a mistake to take a foghorn to something like that. Plus, the bass part spends much more time above the staff than below. I think it warrants something on the smaller side.

[blast]

This has troubled me since it was posted. A 70H is a real bass, as much as any made today. Just different. I have heard staggeringly good playing on the 70H, 71H, 72H, 73H and 83H.
You have to learn how to play them, and in some places that seems to be a lost art.

Ha! I thought it might. I have a dear friend that sounds amazing on her (double valve) 72H here. But other than that small example, no one is playing the smaller Conns in my area. Decibels are one thing, the sound itself is another.

I happen to have a '55 70H on the way... very excited to play one again. But I still won't be choosing it for the Gloria, methinks.

Ha !! I thought you might bite... these compact Conns are often very special, though I've played many, many dogs. There recordings out there that show the potential...the RSNO recording of the Strauss Alpine Symphony has Bob Hughes doing his thing but also Derek Bishop on his 83H sounding awesome. Keith McNichol at Covent Garden is amazing on his 73H. My 70H is a 1955 model. I hope yours is as good. With all respect to Gabe, I've always found they only play their best with smaller mouthpieces. You'll need to try a 2G or at the very least, a 1 1/2G and back off the airflow and work for focus. Most people these days try to compensate for the tighter bell section by trying to blow it bigger. Go for focus and the sound just grows and grows. I have an ex student sitting next to me on La Boheme 3rd part at the moment...71H and Bach 2G. Magic.

[GabrielRice]

With all respect to Gabe, I've always found they only play their best with smaller mouthpieces.

Haha...Chris, if I could play a smaller mouthpiece I would

At least I don't play a 93D on it anymore...

[Crazy4Tbone86]

For me, the Conn 70 series trombones were tricky to play in their original Elkhart form due to the leadpipes. I think many of them needed the Conn shank mouthpieces (or something similar) to work correctly.

I was very frustrated with my Conn 72H for years. I couldn’t find a mouthpiece that worked with it and I avoided taking it out for public performance. I was constantly chipping notes on it. I even tried to sell it for a few months.

When I heard about a bass trombone player having great success with a different leadpipe on his 72H, I pulled the pipe out on mine and found that it worked significantly better with a variety of other pipes.

It is a very different instrument than the larger Bach-style bass trombones…….rather nimble and a sound that blends well tenor trombones, but it doesn’t match with tubas as well. I also like to use a slightly smaller mouthpiece on it and play it with smaller ensembles. Unlike some of the others who have posted on this thread, I think my Conn 72H worked great for the Rutter Gloria. However, the choral groups that I played with only had about 45-50 singers. I imagine that many performances of the Rutter could have 120+ singers, which would probably make me use a bigger horn.

[MStarke]

Just listened to the PJBE recording. Wow! I love the Philip Jones Brass ensemble.