Orchestras Punching Above Their Weight Class

[JTeagarden]

My wife and I went to listen to the Kalamazoo Symphony Orchestra Saturday evening, and were pleasantly surprised by how good it was, given the size of the metropolitan area it is in, much better than other regional orchestras we have heard.

How do they do it? Do you know of other small-market orchestras that punch above their weight class?

Not a discussion about whether the concept of a "Big 5" is accurate (clearly it is very outdated, like the prohibition on drinking gin & tonics after Labor Day), and whether any number of large-market orchestras aren't just as good as them: It's about the smaller orchestras, like Kalamazoo, and what their "special sauce" is.

[GabrielRice]

I like to think my per-service Rhode Island Philharmonic sounds a lot better than its budget size would indicate. In our case, there are several factors at play:

- Providence, RI is only an hour from Boston, so many of our contracted players and substitute pool come from the cream of the Boston freelance community. Many are also regulars with the Boston Pops Esplanade Orchestra - the freelance orchestra that goes on tour representing the Pops and plays the annual July 4th concert at the Hatch Shell. Those players are often called on to sub and play extra with the BSO.

- We also draw from the US Coast Guard Band, one of the US military premier bands, which is based in New London, CT, an hour in the other direction.

- For 21 years we had a truly outstanding music director in Larry Rachleff (RIP), who was also the director of orchestral activities at Rice University. This may not mean much to forum members outside North America, but Rice has one of the very best music schools in the US, and a huge part of its draw was Larry. He had an extremely fine ear for detail and absolutely insisted on the highest levels of ensemble precision. I considered him my musical conscience and always worked hard to live up to his expectations.

- After Larry we had Bramwell Tovey (also RIP) for a few years, who had a very different style but an excellent international reputation and an incredibly musical and generous way about him.

- We have just hired a new music director, the excellent young German conductor Ruth Reinhardt. She has been engaged by major orchestras around the world, and I am looking forward to building our relationship with her over the years to come.

[Burgerbob]

It does help to have an MD that is, for lack of better words, very good. Some of the California orchestras I have had the pleasure of playing with have the ability to attract good conductor talent, which only makes the group better, almost no matter what the talent pool is (though it is always quite good here).

[Gfunk]

The Kalamazoo Symphony Orchestra is great and definitely punches above their weight! As far as why, I think I may have a little insight after living there for a while and hearing them frequently.

Kalamazoo is probably close to one of the best funded orchestras for a city of their size. Kalamazoo has a great arts scene and there as some significant donors from big companies in the area. I’m sure you probably heard an announcement made by one of those donors.

Kalamazoo also has a handful of salaried members, which they call “core members”. I believe it’s a full string quartet and the principal trombonist, Kip Hickman (who’s a great musician and teacher btw). They use these core members in a large member of chamber concerts every season. I’m not aware of any other orchestras that do this.

At least from the outside, the music director, concertmaster, and orchestra seem to be in a great collaborative atmosphere. The MD really seems to keep the orchestra moving in a good direction.

The local 228 is also quite strong. I wouldn’t be surprised if that has had a positive long term impact for the orchestra.


I’m not on the inside, but that’s a bit of insight from my experience being around the KSO for a few years while I was studying in Kalamazoo.

[JTeagarden]

For better or for worse, I also got a sense from the orchestra members that the players are mostly "on the rise;" Very few much older players who might be phoning it in, a sense I often get from smaller orchestras, particularly with a lot of older musicians.

[LeTromboniste]

The Orchestre Métropolitain in Montreal is a "minor" orchestra if you look at its budget, its number of programmes and services per year, and its payscale. It's a part-time gig, they all have positions in regional orchestras, freelance, teach a lot and/or play in other genres of music. Whereas the bigger and better-know OSM includes a lot of national and international (mostly American) talent, the OM is formed mostly of local musicians, who either are originally from Montreal or more broadly Quebec, or who came to study in Montreal and stayed. The OSM has dibs on booking the Maison Symphonique, I understand the OM can't perform a concert there it if the OSM wants it that day even for just a rehearsal. The OSM gets the big public funding and the big corporate sponsorships, while the OM gets the slim leftovers. You get the picture. Yet the OM could be argued to sound better and more interesting a lot of the time. Don't get me wrong, the OSM is really, really good. And they can play extremely clean, probably more often cleaner than the OM does. But the OM can be extremely inspired and inspiring, and at their best, they sound waaaaaaay above their "weight class", like, they can legitimately sound like a world-class orchestra in their own right. When they go on tour in the biggest markets with the most discerning audiences, they get standing ovations and rave reviews. It helps of course that their MD is Yannick Nézet-Séguin (that's where he got started, and never left despite all the big prestigious appointments) and that they love him as much as he loves them!

[JTeagarden]

Nice, I expect there are many more such examples!

[robcat2075]

I presume that many of the regional orchestras will be quite capable because of the oversupply of capable players produced by the myriad of music schools in the US.

I expect the turnout to audition for any advertised paying position will be ample and will be an embarrassment of riches for the committee tasked with making a choice, even for part-time regional orchestras.


When i was in college in Rock Island Il, the local regional orchestra was "The Tr-City Symphony" and it played all the major repertoire and complicated modern stuff, and did it well. It had a number of lifers from the area but also many teachers/players from Chicago-area music schools and the University of Iowa system who trekked in for two days of rehearsal and then Friday-Saturday-Sunday performances. The conductor's day job was the U of I orchestra and was a former protegé of Mitropoulos. The expectations were high, I guess.

[hyperbolica]

Yeah, a local orchestra pays $85 per service, which is embarrassing and yet the turn out for a non-lead bone chair included top area talent. Not just kids. Retirement age people.

[GabrielRice]

I regularly see people fly in from around the country to audition for orchestras that pay between $100-$150 per service and have 100 services or fewer per season. Musicians travel more than they used to.

[Retrobone]

- We have just hired a new music director, the excellent young German conductor Ruth Reinhardt. She has been engaged by major orchestras around the world, and I am looking forward to building our relationship with her over the years to come.

Good for you guys! A breath of fresh air.

[MStarke]

A very different structure, but in Germany there are many orchestras that are probably lesser known internationally, but can totally keep up with some of the biggest name orchestras in the world. E.g. the German radio orchestras maintain great Youtube channels with fantastic quality recordings. Most people just think about the Berlin or maybe Munich Phil in Germany, but the radio orchestras are +- on the same level. And many regional/city orchestras are not far behind, e.g. the Cologne Gürzenich orchestra. However all of these have well-paid full time musicians and organizational teams.

[JTeagarden]

A very different structure, but in Germany there are many orchestras that are probably lesser known internationally, but can totally keep up with some of the biggest name orchestras in the world. E.g. the German radio orchestras maintain great Youtube channels with fantastic quality recordings. Most people just think about the Berlin or maybe Munich Phil in Germany, but the radio orchestras are +- on the same level. And many regional/city orchestras are not far behind, e.g. the Cologne Gürzenich orchestra. However all of these have well-paid full time musicians and organizational teams.

Very different structure in Germany, the radio orchestras are excellent, but also well-funded, I believe. In the US, I consider it nothing short of a minor miracle when a smaller city has performing arts of a high quality, as it represents a real effort to pull it off here.

[LeTromboniste]

A very different structure, but in Germany there are many orchestras that are probably lesser known internationally, but can totally keep up with some of the biggest name orchestras in the world. E.g. the German radio orchestras maintain great Youtube channels with fantastic quality recordings. Most people just think about the Berlin or maybe Munich Phil in Germany, but the radio orchestras are +- on the same level. And many regional/city orchestras are not far behind, e.g. the Cologne Gürzenich orchestra. However all of these have well-paid full time musicians and organizational teams.

Very different structure in Germany, the radio orchestras are excellent, but also well-funded, I believe. In the US, I consider it nothing short of a minor miracle when a smaller city has performing arts of a high quality, as it represents a real effort to pull it off here.

One of the realities in many places in Europe, though, and that's something North American orchestral musicians don't always like to talk about, is that the pay disparity between the well-known, "top" orchestras and the rest is much, much smaller. In some cases there isn't really one at all. So the "top" orchestra pay a lot less (good living wages, but not 6-figure starting salaries, and also without having some first chairs making between a quarter of a million or more), which means there's a way bigger portion of the pie left to split among everyone else. Unlike in North America where there's a bit of a "winner takes all" reality, if not mentality. Of course a big part of it is a result of the difference between public funding, which tends to be spread around, and philanthropy and big corporate $, which tend to congregate towards "prestige". But you don't need the operating budget of the NY Phil or the LA Phil to make great music, and you don't need the budget of the MET to present great, compelling opera productions. Maybe if these institutions weren't as big but the money thus spared was still invested in the arts, more of the smaller or regional institutions could offer living wages or jobs at all, and North America would have more than just a handful of full-time opera houses.

[JTeagarden]

Given that the cost of living in major European cities tends to be substantially higher than in smaller cities (based on my personal experiences specifically with Germany), this would suggest that there's no bump in your quality of life becoming a member of a renowned orchestra.

Yes, our "winner-take-all" approach plays out in 100 different ways in the US.

[MStarke]

The downside of having a really good landscape of full-time professional symphony orchestras in Germany is that there is not much room left for others. There are not many really good symphony orchestras that are not based on fixed employment. As far as I know there is more flexibility in the music scene outside symphony orchestras, so in big bands, baroque music, musical scene etc. Obviously far less secure. Also it seems like the full time orchestras almost exclusively hire their subs from other full time orchestras. Which obviously makes this a sort of exclusive circle. Good if you are in, bad if you are out.

[robcat2075]

I suspect corporate donors in the US are not looking for prestige for their philanthropy so much as they are looking for eyeballs for their logo.

That may be why our major league basketball and football venues in Dallas are named after major corporate sponsors but our opera house is named after Margot and Bill Winspear.

I'm doubtful more money will do much to boost regional opera in the US. The Dallas Opera's season is just four and a half operas over about 20 performances and they don't sell that out.

I think, of all the performing arts, opera has had the greatest decline in general interest in the US.

[LeTromboniste]

I suspect corporate donors in the US are not looking for prestige for their philanthropy so much as they are looking for eyeballs for their logo.

Isn't that the same, though? Big prestigious organisations attract more eyeballs, because they're prestigious. And in turn they're seen as prestigious because they attract more eyeballs.

[musicofnote]

A very different structure, but in Germany there are many orchestras that are probably lesser known internationally, but can totally keep up with some of the biggest name orchestras in the world. E.g. the German radio orchestras maintain great Youtube channels with fantastic quality recordings. Most people just think about the Berlin or maybe Munich Phil in Germany, but the radio orchestras are +- on the same level. And many regional/city orchestras are not far behind, e.g. the Cologne Gürzenich orchestra. However all of these have well-paid full time musicians and organizational teams.

I've been very pleasantly surprised with the hr-Sinfonieorchester (Frankfurt Radio Symphony) which has a very active YouTube Channel. Can't get up there from Switzerland to hear them live, but what I've heard on YT has been top-drawer.

[MStarke]

I've been very pleasantly surprised with the hr-Sinfonieorchester (Frankfurt Radio Symphony) which has a very active YouTube Channel. Can't get up there from Switzerland to hear them live, but what I've heard on YT has been top-drawer.

I have heard them live a few times (one of my former teachers played there) and yes, they are also great live! Same for the SWR orchestra.

[hyperbolica]

I regularly see people fly in from around the country to audition for orchestras that pay between $100-$150 per service and have 100 services or fewer per season. Musicians travel more than they used to.

Flight, uber, hotel and a couple of meals is easily triple the stipend or more. And yet despite embarrassingly low wages small American orchestras keep going out of business. Who absorbs all of that cost? The musicians parents?

[WGWTR180]

I regularly see people fly in from around the country to audition for orchestras that pay between $100-$150 per service and have 100 services or fewer per season. Musicians travel more than they used to.

THIS is 100% accurate. The traveling that I see many trombonists alone do to work is mind blowing from a financial standpoint. I drove for years for my full-time(non orchestra job) but at least it was for far better $$$. In the NE US travel is just part of the gig.

[MStarke]

Probably 10-15 years back I read a long article on cost structure in the German orchestra and opera scene.

I don't have the article any more and cannot quote exact numbers, but I remember that the baseline message was: Performances are in the end up to +-90% subsidized, when you factor in all cost that goes into it. So the hall/opera house, ALL staff, administration, marketing, music and materials, rehearsals etc.

In Germany the subsidies come mostly from the cities/regions/state, only partly from private sponsors.

So if you want/have to keep tickets somewhat affordable and do not have these subsidies and sponsors, there is no way to pay musicians appropriately.

I am sure everybody is generally aware of this issue, but it was interesting to see actual numbers back then. It went into the direction of average ticket prices for opera being in the 20-50 Euro range, but actual costs allocated to an individual sold ticket (not a free seat!) were up to ten times this much.

Of course you might ask: Why do this? But then we come back to discussing the actual societal value of arts and culture that should be accessible to everyone. I once talked to a security guard/firefighter at a classical concert who considered it to be luxury to go to this concert until he realized that tickets are only a fraction of visiting a musical. (Musicals are more or less completely commercial in Germany and at least in comparison receive very little public funding)

[GabrielRice]

I regularly see people fly in from around the country to audition for orchestras that pay between $100-$150 per service and have 100 services or fewer per season. Musicians travel more than they used to.

Flight, uber, hotel and a couple of meals is easily triple the stipend or more. And yet despite embarrassingly low wages small American orchestras keep going out of business. Who absorbs all of that cost? The musicians parents?

Orchestras go out of business, but to say it keeps happening is an exaggeration.

Travel costs are very often at least partly reimbursed, and housing is very often provided.

You can do these jobs and have other jobs in addition. I have two regional orchestra contracts, two teaching positions, and various freelancing. For the first 15 years of my professional life I did not do much teaching, but I had a half-time job (including my time at Shires) that gave me flexibility to take gigs. Everywhere I go, the musicians around me put together their livings essentially the same way.

No single part of that equation pays me a living wage, but with it all in combination I do just fine. Not rolling in cash, but just fine...and my wife and I were lucky enough to buy a house in the city of Boston - a very robust real estate market - before the boom really took off in the first part of this century. I realize this is significantly more difficult for younger musicians recently out of school today.

In other words, from where I sit doing the kind of work we're talking about, it's not nearly as bleak as many people think it is. Could it be better with better support for the arts generally? Absolutely. Here in the United States we could do better at a lot of things.

[robcat2075]

Probably 10-15 years back I read a long article on cost structure in the German orchestra and opera scene.

I don't have the article any more and cannot quote exact numbers, but I remember that the baseline message was: Performances are in the end up to +-90% subsidized...

Of course you might ask: Why do this? But then we come back to discussing the actual societal value of arts and culture that should be accessible to everyone...

Here in the US the assertion of the social value of the arts is given lip service but more effort is devoted to the claim that the arts generate economic activity. For example, if you build a symphony hall downtown the people who come to the concerts will also spend money on dinner at a restaurant nearby!

[LeTromboniste]

I regularly see people fly in from around the country to audition for orchestras that pay between $100-$150 per service and have 100 services or fewer per season. Musicians travel more than they used to.

Yup. Probably about 95% of my work requires traveling beyond commutable distances and staying over. That includes my teaching job, which is a 9-hour train ride away (each way), that I do about twice a month, 7-8months per year. That's over 10 entire 24-hour days per year spent traveling, and that's only for that job, not counting all the performing gigs. In terms of a normal 8 hours/day, 5 days/week schedule, thats over 6 weeks (!!!) worth of "business hours" per year spent on those trains. Of course to be fair, I do work on admin for around 8 hours per trip, so it's not unproductive time. But still, it's vertiginous to think about.

Also, with all this travelling (too much of it by plane), my carbon footprint is absolutely shameful.

[robcat2075]

Also, with all this travelling (too much of it by plane), my carbon footprint is absolutely shameful.

The train and plane were going to go with or without you so you really didn't add much carbon.

Unless you are much, much larger than you appear in your picture.

[robcat2075]

I suspect corporate donors in the US are not looking for prestige for their philanthropy so much as they are looking for eyeballs for their logo.

Isn't that the same, though? Big prestigious organisations attract more eyeballs, because they're prestigious. And in turn they're seen as prestigious because they attract more eyeballs.

We can call anything "the same" if we ignore all the differences.

Prestige and audience share are different things.

[NathanSobieralski]

In my area orchestras paying over $120/service will attract professional level players and many commute more than 100 miles for this work. The conductor of our local orchestra world class and that has an impact as well.

[tbdana]

In Orange County, California, I think the Pacific Symphony punches above its weight. It's actually quite a decent orchestra, as it draws some good musicians from L.A.

[RustBeltBass]

My wife and I went to listen to the Kalamazoo Symphony Orchestra Saturday evening, and were pleasantly surprised by how good it was, given the size of the metropolitan area it is in, much better than other regional orchestras we have heard.

How do they do it? Do you know of other small-market orchestras that punch above their weight class?

Not a discussion about whether the concept of a "Big 5" is accurate (clearly it is very outdated, like the prohibition on drinking gin & tonics after Labor Day), and whether any number of large-market orchestras aren't just as good as them: It's about the smaller orchestras, like Kalamazoo, and what their "special sauce" is.

Reading this made me very happy. I was the bass trombonist of the Kalamazoo Symphony Orchestra for 8 years and had some truly fantastic moments with this group.

I am not sure whether I can answer your question fully but I can tell you a few things that contribute to why this orchestra was and is doing so well (in my humble opinion).

Kalamazoo is a city that has historically been a city with a really vibrant arts scene, several theaters and museums. Two very respected schools. The WMU music department in particular has fantastic facilities and faculty. Gibson guitar company is from Kalamazoo. The Gilmore keyboard competition is being held there. The KSO is a relatively old orchestra and has existed since 1920s. It had a very robust financial structure. Not sure if that is still the case, but when I was there, we were apparently the 3rd largest orchestra in Michigan, after Detroit and Gran Rapids, which both are full time groups.

As somebody else had mentioned before, KSO has a few full time members, Artists in residence. These musician both perform and teach in the area and create fantastic connections within the community and especially local schools.

Overall, the level of musical quality was always very high in my opinion. The orchestra treated the musicians really well, the per service rate was competitive and the orchestra supported out of town musicians like myself in finding homestays in the area. Therefore this orchestra was always able to attract great musicians from Chicago and Detroit.

Great to hear you enjoyed the show !!!!!

[JTeagarden]

We were both very pleasantly surprised, and between the two of us we’ve probably heard 50 different professional orchestras all over, and will be happy to visit as often as time permits, clearly there was some big-time support underpinning an ensemble playing this well.