Playing with the "real" professionals

[MStarke]

I don't always know what to call myself. I have studied mostly bass and contrabass trombone professionally, not played for a few years after that and today play all from contrabass trombone up to alto, but 95% for having fun, only rarely because of any money related. Still I feel I can get along quite well in the one or other professional playing situation that comes across. At least I haven't heard any complaints.

But...

Every now and then I am lucky to play with real top-level professionals, mostly from the classical scene, in some sort of setting. Retired long-term horn professor, before that solo horn in a radio symphony orchestra, current and long-term solo trombone from a radio symphony, bass trombonist from a major symphony and opera orchestra, leading freelancers etc.

And honestly: Every time this happens, I see why they are where they are and why I am not. Yes, there may be things that I might actually do better. But these things are never what these people would need in their jobs. I might have a broader perspective and scope of playing. But when it comes to "their" area of expertise, the level of precision, consistency and reliability is astonishing. It's again and again a lesson in itself.

The above is certainly not news to many people here.
But for myself it's a good reminder from time to time.
There is always a lot room for further work and improvement.
I can be happy with my own playing, but no reason to be over-confident.
There is always someone that you can learn from.

I have always experienced these people to be humble and open to support and help others.
So big thanks to all the pros who are maintaining and sharing their skills and are willing to help others!

Feel free to share your experiences!

[Geordie]

This rings true for me.
Many years ago I found myself in a brass band trombone section on 2nd chair in a three chair section. The principal and bass bone chairs were covered by two players from one of the UK’s leading orchestras. They were historically friends of the band. I’d like to think my efforts to blend/fit in raised the quality of my own playing as I listened and observed what they did - that night at least.

[GabrielRice]

Nice!

In my experience the biggest difference between ensembles and players at the top of the profession compared to students, amateurs, and lower-paid situations - at least in classical music - is time and accuracy of rhythm.

[Burgerbob]

Nice!

In my experience the biggest difference between ensembles and players at the top of the profession compared to students, amateurs, and lower-paid situations - at least in classical music - is time and accuracy of rhythm.

I was lucky enough to play bass trombone with the Army Field Band when they toured to my undergrad. It was just one Sousa march, but it was one of the most fantastic experiences of my life- it felt like I couldn't place a note in the wrong spot. The entire ensemble was buried DEEP in a groove. I played better than I had in my entire life up until that point, largely without conscious thought.

It's one of the main reasons I decided to become a performer. The high I got from that was impossible to put into words at the time.

[BPBasso]

I'll never forget when my youth orchestra had members invited to play along side the major orchestra in the area. Never been so nervous, never felt as much of an imposter.

During rehearsal we finally got around to a big brass moment. I'll never forget the trumpets turning around and giving me a big thumbs up. Million dollar moment as a teenager.

I had played a long side many fantastic young tubists by that point, but playing next to a professional tubist with a massive sound, perfectly centered notes, and meticulously clean articulations was eye opening. It made me feel so comfortable, such a strong support to play over.

I'm sad I ever stepped away from music. I miss those magical moments that are shared between musicians. Hope I can play with players of that caliber again some day.

[AtomicClock]

it felt like I couldn't place a note in the wrong spot.

I bet the opposite phenomenon exists, too. Sometimes my community groups need to hire ringers from the freelance community. I imagine they go home after the gig feeling like nothing went right for them.

[Burgerbob]

it felt like I couldn't place a note in the wrong spot.

I bet the opposite phenomenon exists, too. Sometimes my community groups need to hire ringers from the freelance community. I imagine they go home after the gig feeling like nothing went right for them.

I didn't put it in my post, but I do a wide variety of playing here in LA. I ring with college ensembles and I am lucky enough to sub in very good orchestras. You're not wrong- it's hard to really maintain a hold on your best playing habits in the lower quality school ensembles. In the good groups, you get better whether you want to or not.

[Posaunus]

Every now and then I am lucky to play with real top-level professionals, ...
... I see why they are where they are and why I am not. Yes, there may be things that I might actually do better. But these things are never what these people would need in their jobs. I might have a broader perspective and scope of playing. But when it comes to "their" area of expertise, the level of precision, consistency and reliability is astonishing. It's again and again a lesson in itself.

There is always a lot room for further work and improvement.
I can be happy with my own playing, but no reason to be over-confident.
There is always someone that you can learn from.

I have always experienced these people to be humble and open to support and help others.
So big thanks to all the pros who are maintaining and sharing their skills and are willing to help others!

Markus,

Great post. I've been lucky to have some of the same experiences. Exciting, stimulating, ... and humbling.
Enough for me to occasionally regret that I did not study music, instead of pursuing my technical degrees and closeting my trombone for a few decades! I'm now (a bit too late) trying to make up for lost time - playing every chance I get and continuing to learn from others.

[tbdana]

I was lucky enough to play bass trombone with the Army Field Band when they toured to my undergrad. It was just one Sousa march, but it was one of the most fantastic experiences of my life- it felt like I couldn't place a note in the wrong spot. The entire ensemble was buried DEEP in a groove. I played better than I had in my entire life up until that point, largely without conscious thought.

It's one of the main reasons I decided to become a performer. The high I got from that was impossible to put into words at the time.

AtomicClock wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 11:17 am

Burgerbob wrote: Fri Oct 10, 2025 8:50 am
it felt like I couldn't place a note in the wrong spot.

I bet the opposite phenomenon exists, too. Sometimes my community groups need to hire ringers from the freelance community. I imagine they go home after the gig feeling like nothing went right for them.
I didn't put it in my post, but I do a wide variety of playing here in LA. I ring with college ensembles and I am lucky enough to sub in very good orchestras. You're not wrong- it's hard to really maintain a hold on your best playing habits in the lower quality school ensembles. In the good groups, you get better whether you want to or not.

YES! YES!! YES!!! Thank you both for saying this!

In my experience, playing with top pros is better than sex or drugs, it's the best high there is. And Aidan said it perfectly, when playing with great pros you almost can't play it wrong. There's an exact spot for every note, every pitch, every inflection. It's easy to hear, easy to play, and natural.

I've never been one of the great players, but I've been incredibly fortunate in my life to have been able to play with some real greats. Like a lot. And OMG, it's the easiest playing there is. And the experience is practically orgasmic, it feels so good. It's how a golfer feels when he hits a hole-in-one. It makes you want to keep coming back for more, chasing that high.

And yeah, the opposite is also true. I play with a couple community groups, and I sometimes go away from those groups feeling like I was struggling the whole time. Questioning my own ability. Frustrated with how hard it was just to do a decent job.

I was playing trombone quartets recently with some of the better trombone players in my small pond area. We sound pretty good. One guy observed, "The difference between us and the top pros in L.A. and New York is, like, three percent. But getting that last three percent is really hard."

I disagreed. I said, "No, they are way better than us. It's more like three hundred percent."

I don't think we have an appreciation for how good those guys really are. And I don't think we can get a sense of the vast expanse between us and them unless you live with it long enough to recognize the thousand subtle things they've mastered that we haven't.

If I could give trombonists a gift, it would be to have the experiences I got to have playing with these guys day-in and day-out. It changes the way you think about playing music. And even hearing music.

My Aidan-like story wasn't with the Army Field Band, it was just a big band rehearsal band. New to L.A. and still wet behind the ears, I sat down in front of what turned out to be some of the best L.A. trumpet players of the time (a young Rick Baptist, Gary Grant, Al Vizutti, and Malcolm McNab (why Malcolm was there on 4th trumpet I don't know - that's so not his thing)) and in the trombone section with some old dudes I'd never met before (Dick Nash, Lloyd Ulyate, and Phil Teele). At the end of the first tune I was blown away. I didn't know it could be like that. And afterward, I just wanted to get that feeling again, over and over. It was an astonishing experience. And no matter how many times I played with pros like that -- whether it was a rehearsal band, a recording session, or a symphony orchestra -- that feeling never went away. In fact, I'm jonesing for that feeling, now. I hope that someday I'll be able to play with musicians like that again.

It's even better when you get to play with the same great pros over and over. Those guys know each other so well, it's like collectively they are one person. There's very little to figure out. It's just perfect from start to finish, first time and every time.

Sorry to ramble. This just struck something deep inside me.

[Kdanielsen]

I bet the opposite phenomenon exists, too. Sometimes my community groups need to hire ringers from the freelance community. I imagine they go home after the gig feeling like nothing went right for them.

I didn't put it in my post, but I do a wide variety of playing here in LA. I ring with college ensembles and I am lucky enough to sub in very good orchestras. You're not wrong- it's hard to really maintain a hold on your best playing habits in the lower quality school ensembles. In the good groups, you get better whether you want to or not.

This is so so true.

[GabrielRice]

I have done a lot of playing as a ringer for student groups, and there's another consequence that's a little less obvious than the frustration of feeling like you're struggling to play in tune and in time.

In those situation I usually go into a mode of playing that is less flexible than the way I play when I'm surrounded by professionals. I consciously adopt the mindset that my best function is to be the immovable object that they adapt to rather than a fully collaborative member of the ensemble.

I'm exaggerating a bit...but only a bit. I do think this is a good role for a ringer, in the sense that it helps the students understand what they actually need to do, though of course you can't take it to the absolute extreme 100% of the time.

The downside is that that mentality has a way of sneaking in when I'm back in pro situations. I sometimes have to remind myself that nothing works right when I'm subconsciously leading the trombone section from the 3rd chair.

[Burgerbob]

Yes, that's correct too. I end up turning my listening down a fair amount and just doing my own thing. Not something acceptable in pro situations.

[JTeagarden]

I’ve had both experiences as well: playing a big band duet with Basie alum David Keim, he carried me in his stream, and I could do no wrong.

The opposite: a community band I play in has a trombonist whose sense of pitch is so bad, I can’t even tell what note he’s trying to play, it messes up my intonation, or better put I have no idea what the pitch might be. It also gets me when the conductor tells people that he might take a ritardando at a certain spot, and then everybody religiously marks it down in their music, when you should just follow his tempo, he might change it every single measure.

[JohnL]

It also gets me when the conductor tells people that he might take a ritardando at a certain spot, and then everybody religiously marks it down in their music, when you should just follow his tempo, he might change it every single measure.

Actually, he might change at any moment. That's why you're always supposed to be aware of what the conductor is doing.

BUT

At least for me, I have one level of awareness for when the conductor is doing what I expect them to do and a whole 'nother, higher level of awareness when they do something unexpected. The latter pretty much ends up being a moment of "OH, CRAP! They're going off script!" before I (hopefully) correctly divine their intentions and apply it to the music.

I've played for conductors who would get rather bent if people didn't mark something like that - including one who would stand on the podium with his arms folded until everyone dutifully did so.

I play for one conductor who espouses the idea that you're marking the music for a less competent version of yourself (essentially you on an off day). I prefer to express it as marking the music for the poor sap who has to come in at the last minute and play the concert cold because something has come up and you can't do it.

As to playing with "real" professionals? In the proper situation, it's great. In the wrong situation? Let's just say that there have been times when it was abundantly clear that someone was not happy about playing with us scrubs.

[Bonearzt]

TO quote Ms.Dana,

<<My Aidan-like story wasn't with the Army Field Band, it was just a big band rehearsal band. New to L.A. and still wet behind the ears, I sat down in front of what turned out to be some of the best L.A. trumpet players of the time (a young Rick Baptist, Gary Grant, Al Vizutti, and Malcolm McNab (why Malcolm was there on 4th trumpet I don't know - that's so not his thing))>>
Mr.McNab probably got to the gig first!
The running joke being the last guy to a gig gets the lead chair and associated pain & punishment....


Eric

[MStarke]

I also see the other side. Subbing/playing with some let's say less accomplished amateur orchestras from time to time.

It's not that I don't like doing it. People are normally very nice and welcoming and it's a nice opportunity to play some repertoire with just one or two rehearsals or even without rehearsals.

But yes, my very own playing often feels below my normal level in this situations.
Last year I subbed with one of these orchestras, among others playing Unfinished on alto (as the conductor wanted to have it). It was really tricky to get the intonation right, as it was really unreliable left and right. Still I had not played that symphony for a long time, played in a great hall and overall it was a positive experience.

[Savio]

I have to say I don't play much with real professionals. But just had a 3 week's with a small opera orchestra with professional musicians and singers. For me it's both hard and easy. Hard because I'm not used to it, easy because intonation, time and musicality is easier to catch up. People listen much more to each other. And rehearsal time is much shorter than in amateur ensembles. I have to play a lot in amateur settings. Especially the local band. More than I like. And of course there is a danger in doing that. I can get slopy with both intonation and timing. So my trick is to pretend I'm in a professional setting and really focus on timing, intonation and dynamic. They can't play really soft, but I still try to do it. When it's loud I just try to focus on good sound and intonation. I have tried to tell the trombone section that if we want to sound loud, it has to be in time and with clear intonation. But I give it up. And I shouldn't kill their joy of playing either.

Leif

[LeTromboniste]

One memorably interesting experience I remember is playing an early baroque opera production at a big European opera house. Half the orchestra was formed of members of the regular full-time opera orchestra, so very high level orchestral players who specifically are seasoned specialists of playing in the pit and dealing with the unique conditions and challenges of playing opera, but who are used to playing modern instruments and later repertoire. The other half of the orchestra was formed of invited early music specialist who are seasoned professionals of this particular repertoire, of improvisation and ornamentation in the right style and who play those early instruments full-time, but usually don't play in orchestras, and play on stage or in churches.

Everyone was "real professionals", but specialised in different aspects of what the gig required. It was very interesting to see what the different people were good at and what was more challenging to each

[blast]

In my younger days, I learnt more from sitting next to top players than I ever did in lessons.

[sf105]

For what it's worth, it's the same in my day job. The few top-end teams I've worked with have been so much more productive than most everyone else that it has to be experienced to be believed. Most people haven't and so they don't.

For playing at amateur levels, the marker for me is whether it's in tune. It makes things so much easier. I don't really expect much more (although playing real PP's is a valuable rarity).