Bach 42 and high Ab

[rmb796]

Hi everyone,
I am playing a Bach 42G* with a standard 42 LT slide. I love everything about the horn except the high Ab in third position is "squirrely" (the note wants to crack and inconsistent )
All other notes are fine up to high Eb.
I was wondering if there is any way to fix this. A different lead pipe. How far the mouthpiece enters the leadpipe?
I have tried wrapping velcro etc. around the bell but to no avail.
Any ideas? I have a 42 straight horn with a corporation Bell and the Ab's come out fine.
Thanks
Randy

[BGuttman]

Have you tried swapping slides between the 42 and the 42B? If the problem moves with the slide, that usually points to the leadpipe.

[MrHCinDE]

You could check the valve alignment, it needs to be pretty much perfect.

As well as Bruce’s suggestion about the slide, you could try swapping tuning slides.

If that doesn’t help, maybe give to your trusted tech to check for any assembly issues.

[CalgaryTbone]

That note can be a challenge on a lot of .547 horns - particularly some of the older Bachs and Conns. I've encountered that myself, but as suggested, a different slide/leadpipe or tuning slide might make a difference. You may find that a change like that, however, can alter other things in sound or response that are not as optimal as they are on the current setup that you are playing. On a couple of older Conns I used to play, I just learned that there was a "spot" for that note and got used to being a little bit careful on entrances on an A flat. My current horn doesn't have that issue, and I will confess that I enjoy getting rid of the extra care I used to have to take.

Jim Scott

[MrKirk]

Just in general 4th and 5th notes will be slightly off positions. For example G4 on my 42bofg is either a sharp 2nd or a sharp 4th before the tone locks in. Just play through your notes and figure out what your particular horn likes. Once you know what it likes you can then practice/train yourself to lock in those notes. Nothing wrong with the horn as its normal, but different brands of horn will slot differently. A good example is my Bach vs my Adams with G4, the Bach doesnt give much fuss on locking in however my Adams is very precise with regards to the slide position. Best way I can describe it is the Bach locks in or achieves the note easier.

[Kbiggs]

A-flat has been a problem with many trombones, like Jim Scott said. I believe it’s more common with large-bore American-style trombones than, say, traditional German-style trombones.

If you don’t want to or can’t pull the leadpipe—remember that you’re changing the entire instrument, not just the leadpipe—you can try wrapping plumber’s tape around the end of the mouthpiece. Sometimes, if the mouthpiece sticks out just a wee bit further, it can help with response issues. Much more often, though, people find that machining the shank down very slightly helps much more. You can then add plumber’s tape to adjust the depth.

If you find that adjusting the mouthpiece depth ever so slightly really helps, then you could get your mouthpiece(s) machined for Reeves Sleeves.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I was talking shop with another trombone player about that A-flat at a gig a few months ago. The A-flat was finicky on his Getzen 4047. He had a unique solution. He said that his A-flat locks in very solid about 15 cents sharp. So he usually articulates the pitch with his slide intentionally “in” the slightest bit to start the note and then quickly shifts the slide out to be in tune. He demonstrated it for me and he sounded great. Then again, he probably perfected that technique over many years.

I asked him what he did for excerpts that have repetitive A-flats…..like Tchaikovsky’s 4th? He said he normally did his “move the slide in” thing on the first note, shifted it out and left it in proper place for the following A-flats. For him, it was always the first A-flat that was problematic.

[Pezza]

Have you tried the Ab in 5th?
I often play Bb in 3rd then use 5th for the Ab rather than dropping a harmonic!

[CalgaryTbone]

Have you tried the Ab in 5th?
I often play Bb in 3rd then use 5th for the Ab rather than dropping a harmonic!

I had a Yamaha alto on loan to me from a colleague that had the same problem with the high D flat (the corresponding note on an E flat instrument). It had a good D flat in 5th, but that was kind of a scary option on an alto trombone! I did play a couple of D flats in 5th on the Mozart Requiem Kyrie.

Jim Scott

[WGWTR180]

Have that same problem on my 88H. LOL

[tbonesullivan]

Have that same problem on my 88H. LOL

I seem to recall quite a few Elkart 88H trombones for sale that had "good high Ab/G#" as a selling point, as apparently they were also known for that note often giving people trouble.

[LetItSlide]

I had that A-flat issue on a Holton TR680, my high school horn. That note would quaver at times. I haven’t had that issue with other horns including other .547 horns.

Two octaves below that, I’ve experienced tone steadiness issues, especially with smaller mouthpieces. There’s something about third and fourth positions where it sometimes felt like turbulence was kicking back at me, in those octaves.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Yep, low A-flat and G can be problematic. Those notes become less stable for me when I use mouthpieces with not enough mass.

[Blabberbucket]

We had some response issues with low Ab and G initially on our trombones, which seemed to be fixed with a change to the exit bore of the leadpipe. The high Ab (and D above that for some people), seems to mostly be a combination of leadpipe and tuning slide taper.

A couple of players that we've had in the shop regularly play high D on the valve. I wonder if high Ab would feel more secure through the valve in flat second position as well, we haven't experimented with that yet.

[LetItSlide]

The high D (D5) is ok for me on most horns in low second position, but it requires a specific embouchure. The E-flat and E above that in adjusted 2nd and 3rd positions don’t always slot easily. I prefer horns where those notes slot easier than others.

A Bach 42 with factory lead pipe is quite good on those notes.

Another variable is how much in playing shape I am. Most of the problems discussed greatly diminish or disappear if I’ve been playing a lot.

[Sesquitone]

Hi everyone,
I am playing a Bach 42G* with a standard 42 LT slide. I love everything about the horn except the high Ab in third position is "squirrely" (the note wants to crack and inconsistent )
All other notes are fine up to high Eb.
I was wondering if there is any way to fix this. A different lead pipe. How far the mouthpiece enters the leadpipe?
I have tried wrapping velcro etc. around the bell but to no avail.
Any ideas? I have a 42 straight horn with a corporation Bell and the Ab's come out fine.
Thanks
Randy

Eighth-harmonic Ab4 is often a "squirrely" note, whereas adjacent eighth-harmonics are quite stable. It's possible that one of the pressure nodes (or antinodes) is occurring at a spot along the sound-path where there is some "disruption" of the bore size—like a sudden discontinuity or oversized "chamber"—destabilising the position of that node. This causes decoupling of some of the harmonics reflecting inside the instrument, resulting in inconsistent attack response ("cracking"). One problem with Bach 42B trombones is that there is often an inadvertent "chamber" occurring inside the slide receiver: a "gap" between the end of the slide and the beginning of the knuckle into the valve. When filled with a little sleeve guaranteeing smooth continuity, several notes "firm up". René Hagmann, for one, routinely modifies Bach 42Bs this way.

[tbdana]

I've never heard about Ab being squirrely. Interesting. I'll have to pay attention and see if I notice anything.

But I have an unpopular solution. Because I tune such that first position is not all the way in, I have room to make Ab in first position sound in tune. And I often play Ab's in first position as a matter of convenience when going from Bb a whole step above. Works like a charm.

[wayne88ny]

It's the valve that causes the problem. My problem note was high G. I had a Thayer Valve installed on my Conn and that cleared up the problem.

[harrisonreed]

I've never heard about Ab being squirrely. Interesting. I'll have to pay attention and see if I notice anything.

But I have an unpopular solution. Because I tune such that first position is not all the way in, I have room to make Ab in first position sound in tune. And I often play Ab's in first position as a matter of convenience when going from Bb a whole step above. Works like a charm.

I think this solution is good for certain situations, especially for fast playing.

[Sesquitone]

It's the valve that causes the problem. My problem note was high G. I had a Thayer Valve installed on my Conn and that cleared up the problem.

When you say "high G", was this seventh-harmonic G4 or eighth-harmonic (just one position longer than the troublesome Ab4)? I'm guessing that, with the replaced valve, there's no longer any "gap" (creating an oversized "chamber") inside the slide receiver.

[wayne88ny]

seventh harmonic

[dukesboneman]

Back when I was in High School, I played an intermediate level Bach with an F attachment, Don`t remember the model. It had NO high Ab on the horn at all. Any alternate position, NONE.
I was studying summers with Don Knaub at Eastman. He kept insisting that it was me. I was doing something wrong and couldn`t get the Ab..Finally, I think, out of frustration, He takes me horn to show me how to do it. No High Ab`s. He had a somewhat strong opinion of the horn and suggested to my parents that we should look into a better instrument. Which we did (after a while)

[cylon66]

I have the same problem with my Holton TR-188 and other Bach 42s as well. I've been playing the high Ab in first with my tuning slide in all the way (especially if it's a fast passage). If it's a long note, I play it in a sharp 2nd with the F trigger. It sounds a little like a French horn, but it's way more consistent. Try it!

Or use a straight horn, no F attachment to worry about...

[rmb796]

Thanks for the idea cylon66! I never thought of using the trigger and 2nd position. I like it!

[cylon66]