UK trombone sound changing? What to do?

[MoominDave]

It's been some time since I logged in here; hello again! I did a quick keyword search for similar threads, but didn't see anything - apologies if this is a repeat.

I'm talking here about orchestral and brass band trombone sounds. The groups that I am familiar with as a player are at the strong amateur end of the UK spectrum - I'm one of those people who is offered money to play with some regularity, but it isn't often good money, and I don't need it for income. Every so often I find myself in a playing room with a top pro player, but it's rare.

Does anyone else feel that a sound shift is well underway? Like all of us, I make the sounds required by the group and section, while having a personal sound ideal that is the 'trombone approach' to me, a product of my particular learning time (90s) and musical context (learned as a brass bander, but also piano and composition from very young). On large tenor, I play a 1980s 88H with a Wick 4AL, while on bass I have various options, but most enjoy the Holton 169 (with my more-compact-sounding-than-average-for-the-model VB 1-1/4G again at the moment). In short, I like colourful noises - to me, there is little point using a trombone in these applications if colour and edge are components to be feared at low to moderate dynamics. It is clear to me that the trombone's unique musical selling point is its particular sonority.

The UK orchestral scene has venerated Conn designs for decades, ever since Denis Wick led the way with his Americanisation of the British trombone sound in the 50s and 60s, and great emphasis has been placed on the Elkhart 88H/62H combination in sections for a very long time now. But as the years pass by, there are fewer and fewer of these instruments, and more modern designs flow into their places, as new talented generations raised in different musical times come to the fore, on the instruments that have shaped their playing tendencies.

In practical terms, I find myself more and more feeling like my baseline trombone approach is slightly miscalibrated in the sections that I am asked to play in - an uncomfortable feeling! This weekend just gone, for example, I played 1st trombone on Mahler 6 with an orchestra containing a mix of good amateurs and a few pros. 2nd and 3rd were on Rath R4s, while 4th was on a Shires dual bore bass - this is the kind of thing that happens more and more, sitting next to players on instruments that are designed not to colour up at all until the most extreme dynamics, with players whose baseline sounds steer away from mid-dynamic colour. The 88H did the job it always has, but the blend was harder work for me than it was in the same orchestra even quite recently.

So...
1) Are other people noticing this too, or am I confusing the local with the general?
2) What are other people in the same situation doing to make their lives easier? Buying more up-to-date-sounding equipment would be simple enough (after some saving!) But it is more that the sound in my head is no longer quite in step with the head-sounds of those around me. It isn't yet different enough to cause musical problems, but I suspect that this mild disconnect is only going to increase in my contexts in the near future.

[GabrielRice]

Interesting. I've seen the pendulum swing at least partly back towards color at lower dynamics in the US over the course of my career. You don't see a lot of vintage 88Hs or bass trombones in orchestras here, but the modern instruments are tending to be lighter and more colorful than they were 20 or 30 years ago.

[WGWTR180]

I don't want to talk for a full grown adult pro so I'm hoping Chris Stearn(Blast) will chime in here. I know Chris plays his Rath bass trombones over his Conns at his gig. I believe told me that his 2 section mates use M&W tenor trombones. So is the sound Drastically different than previous years? No sure. They're all excellent players but guessing things sound a little different.

[blast]

Yes, sounds in the UK are changing, and in some places, have changed. Rath, Edwards and Shires are more common, but of course, these instruments can be configured to sound any number of ways. The biggest thing I notice is a reduction of articulation at the start of notes. Tubas are often large CC instruments, and that has a massive effect. Also, the preoccupation with volume levels tends to push players to use a less strident sound in upper dynamics. Huge variations here though.

[Finetales]

When I first moved to LA all-Conn sections were still a regular occurrence on the classical gigs I played. Elkhart 88Hs plus some flavor of Conn bass (in my case my indy 72H, and I had my 1962 88H for tenor work).

Nowadays I still see the occasional TIS Greenhoe 62H but that's about it. Most people seem to be on Bach or Bach-like large tenors these days. Having said that, I played my 88H in plenty of non-88H sections and never had an issue blending or being blended with. That 88H is long gone (replaced with a horn that is still on the bright/colorful end of the .547 spectrum), but I still use that 72H on everything and once again haven't felt that I couldn't blend or be blended with.

I think it's perfectly possible to keep playing an 88H even if everyone else is on dark, Bach-style horns. There is even more variation in Germany, with some players on German-style horns, others on Bach-style horns, others on Conn-style horns, and others on hybrids. And they make it work great! Approach is everything.

[MoominDave]

Interesting. I've seen the pendulum swing at least partly back towards color at lower dynamics in the US over the course of my career. You don't see a lot of vintage 88Hs or bass trombones in orchestras here, but the modern instruments are tending to be lighter and more colorful than they were 20 or 30 years ago.

Given that the UK culturally apes everything that the US does* with a delay time, perhaps then I simply need to wait it out!

*Of course, the US is a huge place with many local trombone subcultures. And equally of course, so is the UK, though not as huge.

[MoominDave]

Yes, sounds in the UK are changing, and in some places, have changed. Rath, Edwards and Shires are more common, but of course, these instruments can be configured to sound any number of ways. The biggest thing I notice is a reduction of articulation at the start of notes. Tubas are often large CC instruments, and that has a massive effect. Also, the preoccupation with volume levels tends to push players to use a less strident sound in upper dynamics. Huge variations here though.

Chris, I think you've hit a nail on the head by mentioning reduced articulations - a lightbulb pops into existence above my head, thank you. The front of the note is so important in distinguishing one instrument's sound from another (ref vaguely-remembered studies showing how instruments even from different instrumental families are hard to aurally tell apart if one removes the start of the note), and I certainly find myself wanting to articulate with greater clarity than many I sit alongside. In important ways, the same trombone articulated in two different ways is to the ear two different instruments.

[CalgaryTbone]

This resonates with me. I played an Elkhart 88H through most of high school, all through college (Manhattan School of Music, Juilliard). Freelancing in New York including a lot of subbing with Nee Jersey Symphony and a bit with the New York Philharmonic. A lot of orchestra auditions, including some finals, and I won my job here in Calgary on it. When I got to Canada, there were still a lot of 8H's and 88H's in use - Toronto (including the opera/ballet), Vancouver, Victoria, most of the Southern Ontario orchestras, and of course here in Calgary. There were some Bach players and of course, people switched around a bit and experimented with new oifferings.

When the new companies like Edwards, Shires, Rath etc. came on the scene people slowly started changing. There were changes in the sounds in all of those places, and while I was still taking auditions, I followed the trend partly because the successful applicants seemed to be going further in the auditions.

I don't regret the change, although sometimes I'm nostalgic for the sound that my 50's Conn 8H makes. There are enough plusses to the T396AR that I play now to make me stick with it. Sounds/approaches change, and as Gabe said in a previous reply, the pendulum is shifting back these days. A lot of Theins are being played here in Canada now - very colourful instruments (I just left the Canadian spelling that spellcheck corrected to - seems appropriate). My favourite horn at the ITF was a Thein Bel Canto.

Life moves on, and what's old is new again.

Jim Scott

[sf105]

I see quite a few college students in London. Lots of modern 88Hs and Courtois is gaining in popularity. I'm guessing that Raths are too expensive at that stage in their career. I wonder if things are different in other parts of the country.

[RustBeltBass]

This is a highly interesting topic and I think the OP gave great thought to this already and I enjoyed a lot of these answers.

I am surprised how much of the conversation is based on specific equipment. While equipment certainly must be a part of this conversation, in my opinion it should not be the main focus in attempting to answer the question whether the UK (or anywhere) trombone sound is changing.

Chris Stearn would know if it is changing from his first hand experiences of performing and teaching over several decades. He is saying it is changing, so as far as I am concerned, so this part of the question is already answered.

What interests me is WHY it is changing. I do not believe it is because of the equipment, the equipment might just be a very visible piece of evidence/indication THAT it is changing.

A trombone is a piece of metal. There are countless options of trombone choices these days. What they all have in common is that they:

1. Allow you to do something you want to do musically.
2. Prevent you from doing something you want to do musically.

This is the main deciding factor in why people settle on a certain horn. Regarding the choices some people in the UK seem to have taken in recent years, it allows these individuals to do certain things more easily than traditional equipment.

This could indicate tgat there has been a shift in sound concept and what is asked from professional trombonists in recent years. IF that is the case, then what caused it ?

In my mind, it might be the globalization of the classical music world. The scene has always been somewhat international, at least on the conductor level. But in recent years orchestras worldwide are becoming more and more diverse as well which I do believe in the long run changes aspects such as sound concept and musical style.

I am not saying this in a judgmental way, there are good aspects to this. Some traditions can be lost this way, though.

[Chatname]

I think young European players today listen more to the players in Berlin than to those in London or New York/Chicago. When I was young it was the opposite. And the Anglo-American styles were full of exciting articulation, as mentioned above! The Berlin players, however, are incredibly good at blending. Their more softly articulated style creates a very homogeneous sound. At least that’s how I hear it. I’m very impressed with them, though they play very differently from the heroes of my youth.

When I started working professionally, some older colleagues really made the effort to change their playing style and even their instruments to adapt to us in the new generation. That impressed me. Now I’m approaching the same age myself, and I think I should try to emulate something from the new style, to match the younger players I perform with.

[CalgaryTbone]

I think the internet is the biggest source of this change. People have access to multiple performers/performances worldwide on a daily basis. Regional and National styles are less pronounced than they used to be. It's a process that started with the recording industry and has accelerated as various new media sources came on board. There are still some differences, but they become less and less (like regional accents) due to a media that opens people's ears to other sounds. Not really a bad thing, but also a bit sad that more extreme differences slowly start fading. International conductors also contribute to this in the classical field, since they ask the folks in a European orchestra to sound more like the N. American one they were conducting last week, or vice versa.

Jim Scott

[MoominDave]

Continuing interesting thoughts here from thoughtful and well-informed contributors. I should read this site more often than once every four years!
So it seems that I'm not alone in perceiving shifts, and, of course, as shifts are, they're neither uniform nor wholly consistent. But there seems some consensus on a wider basis than just my context that trombone sounds within that are becoming more focussed on blending into the texture - less articulation, and often more body - but that body is made wider and blendier where it had earlier been made relatively more colourfully penetrating.

On a personal basis, the second title question ("What to do?") is tricky. The sound changes described are not much to my personal taste; great in some repertoire, but a loss to my perception in much else, and I very much enjoy playing in the way that was previously appreciated but seems now to often be more deprecated. To my mind, the slide trombone has few advantages over other instruments (intonation and sound being our main selling points, offsetting the cumbersomeness of the instrument), and these changes take away much of the characteristic difference we have in the latter, as well as compromising our natural ability to act as a tonal continuation of the trumpet section, who seem as bright-toned and pointy as ever. I emphasise that that is my personal take - one can well argue about sound fashions and fluctuations, and the musical function of the trombone(s) in any particular score or ensemble context.
In 2022, in my brass band, exasperated at feeling like I had for half a decade been regularly getting feedback pushing me towards making my trombone sound more like one of the conical brass, I transferred to the tuba section, where I still am ("Well, if sounding like a tuba is wanted, I might as well be playing a tuba. At least they get semiquavers sometimes.") It's a sad feeling to feel like my orchestral contexts are now prompting me into similar thoughts. Trombone is the instrument that I love playing, and early-onsetting health reasons mean that the amount of playing I now do is much less than I once did - it's pretty much only the brass band plus orchestral gigs as I can fit them in around health limitations - so orchestral trombone is important to me.

I suppose the sane thing to do is to simultaneously make myself more comfortable with the new style while also cultivating the trombone company of those of like mind, who bring me more pleasure to play alongside. And to wait for the tide to turn! In the meantime, tuba has its compensations... The good folk of Kidlington are to be blessed with my "Teddy Bears' Picnic" on Sunday afternoon...

[sf105]

Ironically, this is in parallel to the rise of historically informed performances. It's now also more acceptable to use smaller horns where appropriate rather than doing everything on a large bore.

I'm a little more hopeful that the UK will maintain a bit of distance from US practice. Even after all these years, our trumpets mostly play Bb and our tubas use pistons.