Tone

[evanbone1]

Ive been trying a lot recently to try and get that huge full and dark sound like Alessi and some others have, and im struggling. Im just looking for some tips and practice techniques to getting a super full sound, thanks!

[Burgerbob]

1. listen to players of a high caliber, a lot, preferably live

2. study and practice with those sounds in mind for many, many, many hours

[BGuttman]

@evanbone: I bet you have been told to play long tones.

Don't just play them "Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaah". While you are playing the tone try different things. Modify air pressure. Modify lip pressure. Blow harder. Blow softer. Try adjusting jaw or tongue position. Listen to what happens. When something seems to sound better, adopt that. Keep trying to find the magical combination that makes the sound more beautiful.

[robcat2075]

What syllable are you tonguing with?

[LeTromboniste]

Ive been trying a lot recently to try and get that huge full and dark sound like Alessi and some others have, and im struggling. Im just looking for some tips and practice techniques to getting a super full sound, thanks!

How long have you been playing? Our tone takes years to develop. I would caution against trying to have this "huge full dark sound like Alessi and some others have" too hard, and too soon. So many students try to get that sound, then unknowingly develop the habit of playing way too open (because it's the easiest immediate way to approximate that sound concept), and just end up developing a woofy and dead tone.

[PhilTrombone]

One aspect of tone production that can always be improved on is support from the core muscles in your gut. That is where a good, solid sound begins. For some of your practice, move your focus from your embouchure to the support you provide from the core.

Think about always providing a firm, continuous, consistent airstream that starts in the lower abdomen.

[Kdanielsen]

Ive been trying a lot recently to try and get that huge full and dark sound like Alessi and some others have, and im struggling. Im just looking for some tips and practice techniques to getting a super full sound, thanks!

How long have you been playing? Our tone takes years to develop. I would caution against trying to have this "huge full dark sound like Alessi and some others have" too hard, and too soon. So many students try to get that sound, then unknowingly develop the habit of playing way too open (because it's the easiest immediate way to approximate that sound concept), and just end up developing a woofy and dead tone.

This is really good advice.

I think finding your version of a great tone comes from learning how to really make a clear centered sound that gets the most sound for the least effort. Playing in tune, getting your trombone to the right length for the note you are trying to play, getting the embouchure to be comfortable and stable, and playing with a sense of time (not necessarily metronome time, sometimes a sense of cause and effect, sometimes a sense of confidence/inevitability/intention) are all part of it for me.

More practical/less abstract advice: Your embouchure's job is to create a great tone, not play in tune. Your slide arm's job is to play in tune. Blow right to the great sound, regardless of if it's in tune or not, and adjust the slide while staying in the tone. The two will grow together. Never bend the pitch into being in tune with your chops.

It's a big topic, and you are going to have to figure it out yourself mostly. I do think that pretty much any trombone and mouthpiece can make a good sound on at least a few notes at some dynamic. Find the toehold, hold on, and build from there. I don't think every horn/mouthpiece/face can make every sound.

[VJOFan]

The easiest (not quickest maybe) path to playing with a great sound is to take lessons with a player with a great sound and hope that they teach by playing with you. Working to match that sound will do wonders for your playing.

Otherwise record yourself a lot. There are limitations to the fidelity of any recording but you will hear changes and improvements.

For me the best sound happens when as much of the musculature as possible is in neutral or as near neutral as possible. Anything that is unnecessarily tight will have negative effects on the sound.

[hyperbolica]

For me the best sound happens when as much of the musculature as possible is in neutral or as near neutral as possible. Anything that is unnecessarily tight will have negative effects on the sound.

I think this is true for seasoned players who already know how to make a good sound, but not for new players or those looking to change their sound. People who have played with a good sound just let it relax and happen naturally, but learners have to do something different or possibly unnatural, so I don't think it works the same for them.

I relearned my embouchure with a good bass bone player teacher, although I was just a tenor player. It was a lot of straining for about a month until I learned the right habits and the sound started to change. I got a big sound from that. I really do wish we had played more duets, or done the "imitation game" more often.

[LeTromboniste]

One aspect of tone production that can always be improved on is support from the core muscles in your gut. That is where a good, solid sound begins. For some of your practice, move your focus from your embouchure to the support you provide from the core.

Think about always providing a firm, continuous, consistent airstream that starts in the lower abdomen.

I agree that focusing on embouchure is probably not the solution. But I'm not super convinced about the abdominal support part. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean.

To me, the core needs to be engaged, yes, but I don't believe this is something that requires (or benefits from) conscious thought as we play. Everytime I've struggled the most with my tone and control of it were periods of time where I was trying to more consciously think about my abdominal muscles. And every colleague I can think of who went through a phase of resetting how they go about abdominal support and consciously thinking about activating their abs, I thought they sounded worse. I think it's a dead end. Exhaling involves primarily muscles from all around your chest, and your abdominal muscles only secondarily, and in my experience giving too much attention on the lower abdomen tends to lead people to unconsciously tense up other very important areas, and prevent things from happening that need to happen when breathing and blowing efficiently.

Besides, I find going for firm, continuous, consistent air stream is antithetical with having real control over the music. If you want to be able to play subtly, with sudden and sometimes extreme changes of dynamics from one note to the other as you shape and phrase, your quality of tone can't be dependent on a firm and even airstream, because that airstream is ultimately what creates those extreme dynamics and this shaping and shading. Having a tone that relies on steady airstream can't lead to dynamic variety, or to subtle shapes and shades, and a continuously firm airstream can't foster control over the softest dynamic.

I think we need to cultivate an efficient embouchure and breath control that can maintain the best possible tone using the least amount of air, and not having lots of steady air a requirement to having a good tone. That does require fine control over the airstream, but I don't think this control can come from a muscular mindset. For me it comes from the musical imagination first, and gets translated in the mouth as different vowel shapes and sensations both of airspeed and of resonance. The muscles providing this airspeed react to these intentions and the sensations associated with them; I'm not consciously thinking about the process of what these muscles do physically.

To me overly focusing on the abdomen is a dead end. It might be that one had to go through this dead end first to be able to support well and develop a good tone and thereafter no longer have to think of it, but I don't see why that would be the case.

[evanbone1]

What syllable are you tonguing with?

Ive been tonging with "ta", maybe using something more like "Toh" would darken the sound

[Kbiggs]

The vowel should change with the register:

“tOH” in the lowest register (but don’t open your mouth, just the back part of the tongue)
“tUH” in the lower register
“tAH” in the middle register
“tIH” as you ascend
“tEE” in the highest register

“t” = less tongue, more air. Starting notes without the use of the tongue (air attack) helps with good articulation. Practice placing less emphasis on the initial consonant, and more emphasis on the vowel and the use air of immediate air flow.

As for tone quality, think about making every note clear, resonant, and full from ppp to fff. That means careful, measured practice finding your ppp and your fff while maintaining a consistent sound. It can be quite difficult to play a clean and clear ppp, one that doesn’t waver or get too diffuse and fuzzy.

“Width” (“bigness”) will come with time.

[hyperbolica]

Sometimes hearing things in context really helps. Playing Tchaikovsky excerpts with a good section helps. I didn't learn how to play in tune in a practice room with a tuner, I learned quickly by playing in chamber groups. If you wanna play loud, you have to do it with good examples nearby.

[GabrielRice]

Joe Alessi does not make a dark sound. At least not all the time.

Joe does make very full sounds, in the sense that he is supporting a free vibration with an excellent supply of air. And he does make very rich sounds, in the sense that there are a lot of overtones ringing when he plays.

In fact, if you heard Joe play in person - which I and many others on this forum have - you might be surprised by how much brightness and brilliance there is in the sounds that he makes. Which you cannot always hear very well in even commercial recordings!

So...my advice to you is to stop thinking about a dark sound and think more about a full, rich, ringing sound. Take energizing breaths that inflate your chest cavity, and release that air to make your lips vibrate like a string with a bow being drawn across it.

And listen to great players play in person.

[Doug Elliott]

Thanks Gabe, I was going to say that but you said it much better. Joe does not have a dark sound. Nobody with an actual gig has a dark sound. Teachers that still promote "dark sound" are out of touch with reality.

Big sound with core and projection is what you want.

[LeTromboniste]

Joe Alessi does not make a dark sound. At least not all the time.

Joe does make very full sounds, in the sense that he is supporting a free vibration with an excellent supply of air. And he does make very rich sounds, in the sense that there are a lot of overtones ringing when he plays.

In fact, if you heard Joe play in person - which I and many others on this forum have - you might be surprised by how much brightness and brilliance there is in the sounds that he makes. Which you cannot always hear very well in even commercial recordings!

So...my advice to you is to stop thinking about a dark sound and think more about a full, rich, ringing sound. Take energizing breaths that inflate your chest cavity, and release that air to make your lips vibrate like a string with a bow being drawn across it.

And listen to great players play in person.

This!

[VJOFan]

Sound adjectives? The best I can think of is glowing.

For me when a sound is the sonorous equivalent of a good incandescent bulb inside a beautiful lamp I can listen to it forever. Put a dimmer on it for dynamics.