Frankenbone from student horn?

[Reedman1]

I'm curious about making a Frankenbone from a student horn. Has anybody here done that? How did it turn out?

The advantages that I can see up front are a low initial cost, new instrument (so no repair costs), and fun. Disadvantages could be that the horn might not be so sturdy, or the design might just not be all that great.

If Iike the horn enough, I would probably replace the leadpipe and get a Butler outer slide. If I don't like it, well, I can pass it on.

For those who want to know, the horn I have in mind for my experiment is a JP131r dual bore with rose brass bell.

Your thoughts?

[Matt K]

Depends on the student horn. For the Getzens, I'd absolutely do this. Actaully, AM doing this. I have an O'Malley bell I'm having mounted on a 300 b/c the rest of the horn is basically an Edwards. Idea is I'll have a Conn 4H, franken 485/500 out of mostly Conn parts, and my Getzen 1050S (508) slide to use with it and my 1050S bell section.

For horns that don't have similar compatibility, I'd question the reasoning b/c by the time you spend the money to soup it up you're going to have spent more than a used pro horn. I'm not sure what kind of tenon the JP rath have so if it works with others and you can cheaply acquire a pro slide then it might make sense.

The advantages that I can see up front are a low initial cost, new instrument (so no repair costs), and fun. Disadvantages could be that the horn might not be so sturdy, or the design might just not be all that great.

I'd say kind of the opposite. Replacing the leadpipe alone is going to be a few hundred dollars, plus the leadpipe. More if you add a collar to it. Now, i you like it right off the bat and DON'T do those things, then it has a lower up-front cost.

Student horns, especially ones w/o an F attachment, are typically super duper sturdy. Like, to the point where they're heavy and over-built. What people will do with these if they do modify them is to reduce bracing, swap for lighter bells, etc.

Now, if you bought pre-owned and went to rice it up, that's a different story. It might not turn out great, you'd kind of do it because you have a specific thing in mind that you want (e.g. I want several slide options and you can get pro level horns and very high quality student horns at a good price point), so even if the result isn't great, eh, no big deal.

[Reedman1]

Depends on the student horn. For the Getzens, I'd absolutely do this. Actaully, AM doing this. I have an O'Malley bell I'm having mounted on a 300 b/c the rest of the horn is basically an Edwards. Idea is I'll have a Conn 4H, franken 485/500 out of mostly Conn parts, and my Getzen 1050S (508) slide to use with it and my 1050S bell section.

For horns that don't have similar compatibility, I'd question the reasoning b/c by the time you spend the money to soup it up you're going to have spent more than a used pro horn. I'm not sure what kind of tenon the JP rath have so if it works with others and you can cheaply acquire a pro slide then it might make sense.

The advantages that I can see up front are a low initial cost, new instrument (so no repair costs), and fun. Disadvantages could be that the horn might not be so sturdy, or the design might just not be all that great.

I'd say kind of the opposite. Replacing the leadpipe alone is going to be a few hundred dollars, plus the leadpipe. More if you add a collar to it. Now, i you like it right off the bat and DON'T do those things, then it has a lower up-front cost.

Student horns, especially ones w/o an F attachment, are typically super duper sturdy. Like, to the point where they're heavy and over-built. What people will do with these if they do modify them is to reduce bracing, swap for lighter bells, etc.

Now, if you bought pre-owned and went to rice it up, that's a different story. It might not turn out great, you'd kind of do it because you have a specific thing in mind that you want (e.g. I want several slide options and you can get pro level horns and very high quality student horns at a good price point), so even if the result isn't great, eh, no big deal.

Thanks, very helpful answer. In your experience, what does it cost to have a tech remove the original leadpipe and make any adjustments for a drop-in leadpipe from BrassArk?

[Matt K]

If you don't want a collar, it depend son how hard it is to yank. Easy has historically been ~$100-150. Hard can be more expensive, and then you may have to worry about replacing the inner. Not all techs are experienced enough to salvage the part. Some are experienced enough to typically salvage one but not the other. Some... you may as well just get a new inner slide and have it installed ($$$$).

The collar part is typically ~$150. Depending on how tricky it is to install, can be upwards of $150-$300 total. So, all-in, the worst-case scenario is possibly more than the cost of what you'd probably bought it for pre-owned.

Small bore pipes from Brassark typically don't have a ring, so if you just want pressfit, then that reduces costs for sure.

[walldaja]

Just had a Shires lp put in my King. Cost $345 including the pipe.

[atopper333]

I was actually in the process of sourcing a King 2B bell, tuning slide and tenon to put on a 605F to make a 2BF some time ago. I was also looking at swapping the leadpipe as well. The more and more I looked at it, the more and more it just seemed cost prohibitive and that I could just get a well loved 2b and have it shipped of for refurbishment and an f attachment and be within 500-700 dollars of doing all that other work. The difference is I would have a custom valve section vs a student model valve section on the 605F.

I think it’s a matter of what you want to pull out of that horn. Matt K’s idea makes sense cause of the availability of interchangeable parts of a great quality.

On the flip side, Yamaha makes excellent 3 series horns with great options for a straight or valved horn in that bore size out of the box.

In the end, I would think it would HAVE to be a labor of love to put that kind of work out to frankenbone student models…
Of course, someone capable of doing this work themselves…that’s a totally different set of circumstances…

[Reedman1]

I was actually in the process of sourcing a King 2B bell, tuning slide and tenon to put on a 605F to make a 2BF some time ago. I was also looking at swapping the leadpipe as well. The more and more I looked at it, the more and more it just seemed cost prohibitive and that I could just get a well loved 2b and have it shipped of for refurbishment and an f attachment and be within 500-700 dollars of doing all that other work. The difference is I would have a custom valve section vs a student model valve section on the 605F.

I think it’s a matter of what you want to pull out of that horn. Matt K’s idea makes sense cause of the availability of interchangeable parts of a great quality.

On the flip side, Yamaha makes excellent 3 series horns with great options for a straight or valved horn in that bore size out of the box.

In the end, I would think it would HAVE to be a labor of love to put that kind of work out to frankenbone student models…
Of course, someone capable of doing this work themselves…that’s a totally different set of circumstances…

Well, I’m capable of buying a Butler slide… No, I don’t have the technical skills to remove an original leadpipe.

Well, it was a nice idea. Maybe I’ll save up a little longer and pick up a 356r or something like that, and go from there.

[sirisobhakya]

I am (or rather: my tech is) in the process of doing that. 2 Yamaha YBL-421Gs bass trombone to be frankenbone-d to 1 double valve bass and 1 straight bass bore trombone. I shall update the result once they are completed.

[Reedman1]

I am (or rather: my tech is) in the process of doing that. 2 Yamaha YBL-421Gs bass trombone to be frankenbone-d to 1 double valve bass and 1 straight bass bore trombone. I shall update the result once they are completed.

Is one of these a beginner horn?

[WGWTR180]

There is no way I'd pay $$$ for a Butler slide to put on a student bell section.

[atopper333]

I am (or rather: my tech is) in the process of doing that. 2 Yamaha YBL-421Gs bass trombone to be frankenbone-d to 1 double valve bass and 1 straight bass bore trombone. I shall update the result once they are completed.

Is one of these a beginner horn?

The YBL-421 is considered an intermediate bass horn. I have a YBL-321 which is also in the same realm. If I do modify a horn like this it would be to put a second valve on the 321. The horn plays more beautifully than anything I’ve picked up and I’ve been thinking about a double so I guess this would be a ‘I would HAVE to want it horn’…these horns really do punch above their weight so to say…

Also, I really don’t mean to discourage…there have been some really cool horns made with this mindset…I guess I just want to throw out there that it probably won’t be cheap as I’ve found quite the opposite true in a few of my other projects. It would have been good for me to have really known better…probably would’ve saved a bit of money…you just would have to find the one that was worth it to you.

[Matt K]

Yeah, 100%. You CAN save money, sort of. But it's only in comparison to whatever a new horn of comparable options would be. IF what you want is really not a stock option. Like, if you want a good playing 500 or 508 horn just get a 3B, YSL89x, etc. Especially pre-owned.

OTOH, if you have a particular thing in mind, like... I don' know, a 7.75" light weight one-piece bell with soldered bell bead and three slides from 485 to 508 ( ) then good luck finding it less than new prices!

If I were personally in the market for a straight small bore, I'd probably make my way out to one of the places that has a decent amount of pre-owned options like Baltimore Brass or Dillon and just pick one out there. Odds are, they have something you'll like and it'll probably be no more than $1500.

[Reedman1]

Yeah, 100%. You CAN save money, sort of. But it's only in comparison to whatever a new horn of comparable options would be. IF what you want is really not a stock option. Like, if you want a good playing 500 or 508 horn just get a 3B, YSL89x, etc. Especially pre-owned.

OTOH, if you have a particular thing in mind, like... I don' know, a 7.75" light weight one-piece bell with soldered bell bead and three slides from 485 to 508 ( ) then good luck finding it less than new prices!

If I were personally in the market for a straight small bore, I'd probably make my way out to one of the places that has a decent amount of pre-owned options like Baltimore Brass or Dillon and just pick one out there. Odds are, they have something you'll like and it'll probably be no more than $1500.

Well, I can get the student horn for $500 or less, brand new, and I'm interested in exploring the .500/.525 dual bore to see if it gives me a little fuller sound in the lower and middle registers. In terms of buying instruments, that's pretty low risk. I wouldn't Butlerize it unless I really liked it. The reason I would consider changing the leadpipe is that I'd expect a student leadpipe to be on the tight side.

On my other hand, I already play an early Butler JJ (#008), with an Edwards #2 leadpipe and a custom JKlier mouthpiece. It's a great horn, but just a little thin in the low register to my ear - and I work pretty hard on obtaining a full sound down there. I could get the mouthpiece deepened or copy the rim onto something a little bigger, and I could get a BrassArk leadpipe for $170 (if I wait a long time). It would probably give me pretty much what I want. But then I wouldn't know how different a dual bore .500/.525 feels or sounds. Of course, an intermediate or pro instrument would feel and sound a bit different from a student horn—but student horns are reputed to have gotten a great deal better in the last 20 years or so.

I don't want to switch slides on a single bell unit. Maybe someday I'd like a modular F valve section option, but not right now.

And blah blah blah.

[Matt K]

Yeah, I've gone down this rabbit hole (someone else on the forum did too with 500/525 too). I really liked the result, I'm in the process of having the receivers swapped for my Conn/Getzen stuff now actually. That's a pretty compelling use case because the options for that size are very limited. YSL356, 32H and then boutique.

I can't remember who it was or if its already sold but someone was selling a 32H with a slightly wide crook... at the price they were asking that's probably about as good a bang for your buck as you're going to get.

Now, starting with a medium bore will help reduce costs... reason is you don't have to yank the pipe, you've got the built in pricing of removing the inner/outer slide anyway. You can also get the whole corkbarrel from somewhere like Shires with the collar on it. All-in, if you did this to say, a King 607 and you're patient, you may be able to keep the whole project under $1k. There are also other good options for medium bores that won't break the bank.

The thing about the 607 that makes it unique is that it's the smaller bell section, basically the 3B. Most medium bores are really larger bell sections with smaller slides.

[sirisobhakya]

I am (or rather: my tech is) in the process of doing that. 2 Yamaha YBL-421Gs bass trombone to be frankenbone-d to 1 double valve bass and 1 straight bass bore trombone. I shall update the result once they are completed.

Is one of these a beginner horn?

The 421G is an “intermediate” horn, but it is the cheapest bass in Yamaha’s current lineup. So I think you can, “sort of”, consider it a beginner’s bass trombone.

[Reedman1]

Is one of these a beginner horn?

The 421G is an “intermediate” horn, but it is the cheapest bass in Yamaha’s current lineup. So I think you can, “sort of”, consider it a beginner’s bass trombone.