Large Bore: Q series vs. Bach 42

[Austin4203]

So, I’m in college for music performance for trombone. I’m a sophomore, and in need of upgrading to a professional horn. I’ve been using a lake city large bore since my sophomore year of high school, which served just fine for then, but now it’s holding me back.

My lesson teacher suggests a Bach 42 (preferably open wrap)- it’s the standard, right?

I just went to Schmitt music for the first time in a couple years and play tested horns. Bach 42’s played mostly okay, very inconsistent. Some were free blowing, some were really stuffy imo. And then I decided to play the Shires Q series horns (which, from my understanding, are built to be cheaper than the average professional horn), and to my surprise I enjoyed all of the Q series horns more than any of the 42s, ESPECIALLY the alessi one. If it were to my preference, I would go with a professional level shires- I liked those ones even more, definitely my brand as of now- but that’s too far outside of my budget. But the Q series on the other hand, are even CHEAPER than any of the 42s.

I guess what I’m wondering is, has anybody else had a similar experience? I thought it would be best to stay away from the Q series, but now I’m having second thoughts.

Thoughts?

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Buy/play whatever works best for you.

[Burgerbob]

Q series can play quite well. But they will lose a lot of value very quickly, and especially with modern ones, who knows what longevity is like.

[BrianJohnston]

You'll probably find (generally) that the Shires are easier to play, but the Bachs sound better. You can get lucky and find a used 42 for as low as $800, but more likely around the $1,200 range.

[Lhbone]

So, I’m in college for music performance for trombone. I’m a sophomore, and in need of upgrading to a professional horn. I’ve been using a lake city large bore since my sophomore year of high school, which served just fine for then, but now it’s holding me back.

My lesson teacher suggests a Bach 42 (preferably open wrap)- it’s the standard, right?

I just went to Schmitt music for the first time in a couple years and play tested horns. Bach 42’s played mostly okay, very inconsistent. Some were free blowing, some were really stuffy imo. And then I decided to play the Shires Q series horns (which, from my understanding, are built to be cheaper than the average professional horn), and to my surprise I enjoyed all of the Q series horns more than any of the 42s, ESPECIALLY the alessi one. If it were to my preference, I would go with a professional level shires- I liked those ones even more, definitely my brand as of now- but that’s too far outside of my budget. But the Q series on the other hand, are even CHEAPER than any of the 42s.

I guess what I’m wondering is, has anybody else had a similar experience? I thought it would be best to stay away from the Q series, but now I’m having second thoughts.

Thoughts?

I emailed you directly, just fyi.

[MahlerMusic]

Back in my "College" years I had no idea what sound I wanted and pretty much played what was available at the time. Being young you can adapted to pretty much anything and if a horn is too open or too stuffy, that goes away with weeks of practicing and playing. For me I was too use to the sound behind the bell and I did not focus on the sound others heard. I did the whole buy what I wanted years (10-15) later and ended up with two Conn's 88HO-Y and 8HT over a custom Rath and a single Shires in my area.

If my kid was in your position I would recommend a solid standard used horn that will last and be resold for around the same price. After many years of playing and listening to others I would then get something new or new to you once you have a handle on what you really want.

I also did the Schmitt music thing recently and was surprised to see high school kids dropping big dollars on a Greenhoe horn. I also liked the Alessi one with the Pillar Brigde thing when it came to tenors. I was more focused on Basses but the selection was low.

[Gfunk]

All the people I know that have gotten new Shires (Q series and Custom) have had them fall apart in their hands from poor solder work. Fwiw

There’s some REALLY good playing Bach 42s, for sub $1500 if you look around. I just played a colleagues 42B that he found for $1250 and it’s remarkably good horn for that price. Plays and sounds better than some horns that would cost twice as much

[walldaja]

I tried a 42 when I was on a horn hunt. Ended up getting a Shires Q. I find the Q does everything I need done and is the easiest playing horn I've found. Mine has given me no problems.

[GabrielRice]

If you loved the way the Q Alessi at Schmitt sounded and responded, I would encourage you to buy that very one. Schmitt Music is a highly reputable dealer; I'm sure they will stand by it and support you in any warranty claim if it's necessary - which it probably won't be.

[GabrielRice]

Being young you can adapted to pretty much anything and if a horn is too open or too stuffy, that goes away with weeks of practicing and playing.

I can't agree here. I have seen students struggle mightily with instruments that were nearly unplayable, forming terrible habits along the way. At least one of those was a stock Bach 42BO with something desperately wrong in the assembly that neither I nor Christan Griego could identify. A couple of others were instruments with axial valves that were so worn out it was nearly impossible to center any note in any register. i myself bought a vintage Corporation-era Bach 50B that had a dented leadpipe installed at the factory; it was 30 cents flat and so stuffy it was unplayable. Fixing the leadpipe made it an excellent instrument.

This is why I advise the OP to buy the instrument he liked best and can afford at Schmitt, not roll the dice on a used Bach.

I try my students' instruments, and I don't hesitate to tell them if I think they are holding them back. Sometimes it's just a matter of needing service (that happened last week); sometimes it's a matter of "those Thayer valves need to be replaced."

[Kbiggs]

Aside from (a) specific set-up (which valve, leadpipe, bell design, alloys, etc.), (b) appearance (lacquer, plating, raw, etc.), and (c) is it in good repair (new and used horns), choosing an instrument comes down to two things: how does the horn respond while you play it, and how does it sound out there?

“How does it respond” is up to you. Does it feel stiff? Flexible? Open? Too open? Stuffy? Can it center notes in all registers? Can you play on it and feel like you are making music without having to muscle the horn into doing something?

“How does it sound” is partly up to you and partly up to someone hearing you play. If the people at Schmitt’s have good ears, then use their feedback to help guide your purchase. If it sounds good 20’, 50’, 100’ away from you, that’s a good sign.

If a horn feels good and sounds good, then it’s probably a good purchase. If it feels bad but sounds good, then maybe there’s something to the horn—maybe it can help you grow, maybe the horn has potential (there are lots of possibilities here…). If it feels good and sounds good, then that is the safest bet—it’s most likely a winner.

[WGWTR180]

All the people I know that have gotten new Shires (Q series and Custom) have had them fall apart in their hands from poor solder work. Fwiw

There’s some REALLY good playing Bach 42s, for sub $1500 if you look around. I just played a colleagues 42B that he found for $1250 and it’s remarkably good horn for that price. Plays and sounds better than some horns that would cost twice as much

Has Joe Alessi's Q series fallen apart? How many people do you know that has had their instruments fall apart? I'm not a huge fan either but this seems extreme.

[Gfunk]

All the people I know that have gotten new Shires (Q series and Custom) have had them fall apart in their hands from poor solder work. Fwiw

There’s some REALLY good playing Bach 42s, for sub $1500 if you look around. I just played a colleagues 42B that he found for $1250 and it’s remarkably good horn for that price. Plays and sounds better than some horns that would cost twice as much

Has Joe Alessi's Q series fallen apart? How many people do you know that has had their instruments fall apart? I'm not a huge fan either but this seems extreme.

I don’t want to derail this topic any further, so I’ll leave my follow up to a minimum. Out of over a dozen people that I’ve known that have bought new shires, both custom and Q series, more than half have had failed solder joints within two years. Thats pretty astounding to me. The Q series in particular seem to have a consistent problem with the lever saddle popping off because of poor soldering. Of course YMMV, but I think it’s something worth considering when spending thousands of dollars on a new instrument.

[harrisonreed]

"Has Joe Alessi's Q series fallen apart on him?"

They are obviously not going to send their biggest name artist a Q series trombone with bad solder. If someone's name is on a horn, the one they get and the one in the store aren't going to have the same level of QA/QC. Maybe not even the same build overall.

I don't even want to say bad things about the Q series. They seem to be pretty good.

Even with the T-396A, half the videos that you see with Joe playing it, he's got one with a threaded leadpipe and a modular bell.

[musicofnote]

I don’t want to derail this topic any further, so I’ll leave my follow up to a minimum. Out of over a dozen people that I’ve known that have bought new shires, both custom and Q series, more than half have had failed solder joints within two years. Thats pretty astounding to me. The Q series in particular seem to have a consistent problem with the lever saddle popping off because of poor soldering. Of course YMMV, but I think it’s something worth considering when spending thousands of dollars on a new instrument.

Hmmm .... I have a lovely Q36GR bass trombone, that I traded my old Yamaha 822g for. If anything, the slide got better and better until it's now every bit as good as the Yamaha slide was. Of course I take care of the horn as well as I did the Yamaha, so the tuning slides work perfectly as well. But that also means, I "stress" them by removing them at least once a month, cleaning them, re-greasing them and inserting them again. No cracks or breaks in the soldering. And frankly, the sound and response that sold me on the horn over a Shires Custom or the Yamaha 835XX is every bit as good now as it was then, maybe better as I got used to the different response. The only non-stock thing on the horn is a Brad Close seamed copper MV50 lead pipe.

Would I do it again? I would try another few Customs, not ever having been a fan of Edwards horns and having first had a (for me)n nasty Bach 50, but only to see it the Customs I tried back then were dogs. But for the price, this present horn sounds great, plays great and has been solid. The only thing that I will do is replace the rubber bumpers on the valves with slightly softer ones.

[WGWTR180]

I would advise you to get what you like and what feels the best to play right now. Also consult your teacher. If you get REALLY good you'll be able to afford boutique instrument if you'd like.

[Kbiggs]

My lesson teacher suggests a Bach 42 (preferably open wrap)- it’s the standard, right?

I’m going out on a limb here: There is no standard trombone anymore. In the US, time was when you either played a Bach or a Conn. Different players and teachers had strong preferences. In parts of Germany, time was you needed to play a particular model of trombone and mouthpiece if you wanted to study with Prof. XYZ. Now there are so many more makers, and there are so many ways to customize a horn, that the idea of a “standard” seems almost meaningless.

I say almost meaningless because… the standard is how the instrument is played, not the equipment. If you can sound like a principal player while playing an old beat-up Conn, great. If you (still) sound like an average high school player while using the latest offering from Shires, Edwards, Rath, Bach, Voigt, etc., with all the latest gizmos, then what’s needed is more dedicated, deliberate, and mindful practice, not a different horn.

Use whichever horn is more comfortable to play and sounds best.

[WGWTR180]

There are certain well known teachers that change their students mouthpieces and instruments upon arrival. Many students are already going down that path because they "want to be like Mike." You're in a tough spot. Does everyone else play on Bachs at your school?

[Posaunus]

There are certain well known teachers that change their students mouthpieces and instruments upon arrival. Many students are already going down that path because they "want to be like Mike." You're in a tough spot. Does everyone else play on Bachs at your school?

If this is the case, buying anything but a Bach may jeopardize the poor student's lessons and progress, even though he's clearly open-minded and trying to do what's best for himself and his education. Tough spot to be in.

[tbonesullivan]

IMHO, If you are considering a Bach, don't even look at the standard 42BO. The 42BOF is significantly better.

I saved a bunch by buying "demo" horns when I recently upgraded my Bach arsenal, though I live in New Jersey where Dillon Music is, so I was able to go and try them out before buying.

[WGWTR180]

IMHO, If you are considering a Bach, don't even look at the standard 42BO. The 42BOF is significantly better.

I saved a bunch by buying "demo" horns when I recently upgraded my Bach arsenal, though I live in New Jersey where Dillon Music is, so I was able to go and try them out before buying.

I know a few other people who have done this with success too.

[JTeagarden]

I had a parallel experience last night: tried out my sectionmate's Shires Q series bass trombone last night, and compared to my Corporation Bach 50, it played a lot more easily, but did not have the complexity to the sound that I love in Bach horns.

It was a good horn, but it was not going to be pushed like the Bach 50.

[JTeagarden]

I went to UT-Austin when Donald Knaub was the trombone professor, and he was happy with any kind of set-up, as long as it was a Bach 42 with a gold brass bell, and Giardinelli Sym-T mouthpiece.

[Posaunus]

I went to UT-Austin when Donald Knaub was the trombone professor, and he was happy with any kind of set-up, as long as it was a Bach 42 with a gold brass bell, and Giardinelli Sym-T mouthpiece.

[Danitrb]

IMHO, If you are considering a Bach, don't even look at the standard 42BO. The 42BOF is significantly better.

I saved a bunch by buying "demo" horns when I recently upgraded my Bach arsenal, though I live in New Jersey where Dillon Music is, so I was able to go and try them out before buying.

I know a few other people who have done this with success too.

I have 42 BO, it is amazing, in every register. I tried 42 BOF and I didn't liked it more than my 42 BO.

[Mamaposaune]

I have an adult student of retirement age who bought a demo Shires Q series from Dillon Music almost a year ago. He practices on it daily, has had zero issues with it, and frequently raves about how much he loves playing it. (He previously played on a straight Bach 36)
I went with him when he picked it out, we quickly narrowed the selection down to the Q; a standard Bach 42B; and a Bach 42B with a Hagmann valve. We both felt that the Q and the 42 with the Hagmann had the best sound, slightly different but equal in quality. He went with the Q because it was easier to play, and (I think) was less $. Like I said, he's happy and the horn has given him no problems.