Technical - Flats & Sharps

[boneapart]

I'm looking at a transcription of a big-band vocal chart. The piece begins in the key of B-flat and later moves up a half step. In the new key I see that the vocal, guitar, piano, and bass are written in the key of B-natural (five sharps). However, the score and trombones are written in the key of C-flat (seven flats).

Yes, it all amounts to the same thing, but how would you have done it? Should the new key signature be consistent (either B or C-flat but not both)? Are sharps really the anathema of trombonists (they would always prefer flats to sharps)? Would it be preferable for the new key to be the key of B-natural simply because there are fewer sharps (five) than flats (seven)? Would it be preferable to write the whole piece without reference to key signatures? What's your rationale?

[hyperbolica]

If you write in Cb, then trumpet parts are 5bs and Eb sax have 4bs. If you write in B, trumpets and tenor sax have 7#s {or 5bs} and Eb instruments would be written in 4bs!?!?

No matter how you do it, it's a mess, but I would put all of the C instruments in B and transposers in whatever key they land in. Trombones don't like flats to the tune of 7bs. Its hard to swing in sharps, and the blues doesn't really work in sharps, but honestly, its even worse in Cb.

I personally would find two friendlier keys, like Ab and G or D and Eb or even C and Db and tell the singer to deal with it.

[robcat2075]

Since they've decided to do B Major for other non-transposing instruments it would have made good sense to use B Major for the trombones also, while still using enharmonics keys for the Bb and Eb instruments.

I think it would be an unusual trombonist who is uncomfortable with B Major yet IS comfortable with Cb major. If one is a problem, they probably both are and Cb isn't going to save 'em.

However, with modern computer scoring it is feasible to provide both a B and Cb part.

Would it be preferable to write the whole piece without reference to key signatures?

No, I think key signatures are an important reference for performers reading music.

[AndrewMeronek]

I'd usually just go with whichever enharmonic key signature results in the least amount of accidentals. Not just in the key signature; in the parts. Like normal people.

[CalgaryTbone]

I'll try a shorter version of what I wrote earlier, and the Chat ate it! Why does that happen BTW? It drives me nuts! Some posts have touched on what I was saying in the lost post anyway at this point.

Anyway - I grew up in British-style brass bands with B flat treble clef (and E flat aa well). The exception was Bass trombone in bass clef in concert pitch

Sometimes, you would see this key written as D flat (C flat concert) in the tenor trombones and in B natural concert in the bass trombone. Nobody's favorite key either way, but that's why we practice scales.

Jim Scott

[Crazy4Tbone86]

The transpositions of instruments make for some interesting combinations of flat/sharp key signatures in different conductor scores. A few decades ago, I was lectured and advised the following:

Always use the key signature that has the lowest number of sharps or flats. At least, that is what I was taught in my arranging and composition classes 4 decades ago.

With this in mind, the chart that was mentioned by the OP should have had the trombone section in 5 sharps instead of 7 flats. On that same chart, placing the E-flat saxophones in 4 flats is correct. The other option of G# major for those saxophones is ridiculous because it would be 8 sharps ( F would be double sharp and everything else would be single sharp).

With the “least amount of sharps or flats” rule, the is only one key that is left for a judgment call. That key is G-flat (6 flats) or F-sharp (6 sharps). In those keys, I was advised by multiple arranger/composers to use the 6 flats for the winds and 7 sharps for the strings. For keyboard instruments, I have been told to toss a coin!

[Kdanielsen]

Check out this beauty I’m playing daily right now. It’s not as hard as it looks…

[Crazy4Tbone86]

That is just extremely poor writing. The E double flats should be C double sharps. The F flats should be E naturals. The A double flats should be F double sharps. In most music theory classes, that would be slashed by the instructor. It is a simple chromatic scale and it breaks one of the most basic rules of composition…..if ascending, use only sharps as accidentals.

[mgladdish]

That is just extremely poor writing. The E double flats should be C double sharps. The F flats should be E naturals. The A double flats should be F double sharps. In most music theory classes, that would be slashed by the instructor. It is a simple chromatic scale and it breaks one of the most basic rules of composition…..if ascending, use only sharps as accidentals.

What you're asking for is correct, but I'd personally ask the copyist for the easiest enharmonics. So Dnat instead of C## etc. Quick and simple to read trumps enharmonic correctness every time for me.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

That is just extremely poor writing. The E double flats should be C double sharps. The F flats should be E naturals. The A double flats should be F double sharps. In most music theory classes, that would be slashed by the instructor. It is a simple chromatic scale and it breaks one of the most basic rules of composition…..if ascending, use only sharps as accidentals.

What you're asking for is correct, but I'd personally ask the copyist for the easiest enharmonics. So Dnat instead of C## etc. Quick and simple to read trumps enharmonic correctness every time for me.

Well…….technically, putting a D natural there is not correct because the rule is (yes, another composition rule!) ……always use the least number of accidentals. If you place a C double sharp there, it involves only one accidental (a double sharp or a double flat count as only one accidental). If you place a natural sign on the D, it will require a sharp sign for the D sharp after it. That is two accidentals.

Just trying to be a law abiding citizen!

[Kdanielsen]

I’d say including double flats or sharps in a chromatic scale is asking for sight-reading errors. Other scales no problem but in a chromatic scale nobody expects that. That passage is the result of somebody transposing the whole thing in Sibelius and not looking at the parts before sending them. Sibelius does goofy stuff like that.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I agree that double flats and double sharps increase the probability of mistakes! Being a teacher for almost 40 years, I have frequently needed to explain and defend the use of double flats and double sharps for my students and ensembles. Many compositions stick by the rules and use the “doubles” appropriately.

[BrassSection]

Kinda makes me glad I play off a chord sheet a majority of the time! Used real bass clef sheet music for euph in a community Christmas band, and yesterday treble clef music for a trumpet duet. Managed to keep the clefs straight in both cases. That’s my last 6 months of music.

[AndrewMeronek]

Well…….technically, putting a D natural there is not correct because the rule is (yes, another composition rule!) ……always use the least number of accidentals.

There is another rule: make your accidentals look as much as possible that they all come from the same scale.

[slidesix]

Well…….technically, putting a D natural there is not correct because the rule is (yes, another composition rule!) ……always use the least number of accidentals. If you place a C double sharp there, it involves only one accidental (a double sharp or a double flat count as only one accidental). If you place a natural sign on the D, it will require a sharp sign for the D sharp after it. That is two accidentals.

Crazy4Tbone86, thanks for explaining your thought process here. I was trying to understand why not make it D natural there, since if you are going to rewrite E double flat as a C double sharp why use something players are more used to? But here your explanation makes complete sense to me (At least to my brain). I appreciate this.

Me, I played a lot of HS and youth orchestras for weird double sharps or double flats don't bother me.

Normally I would try to overthink it and think, musically should it be a E, D, or a C in this musical context and which one is technically right, where it fits in the scale and key.

So for this returning hobby player, this thread has been useful. Thank you!

Just trying to be a law abiding citizen!

I like this approach, too. Since I don't have to reswitch or re-reoverride my brain twice in the same measure. To me, this makes complete sense! And it's the law!

[Sesquitone]

Would it be preferable to write the whole piece without reference to key signatures? What's your rationale?

For atonal (12-tone) orchestral scores, editors typically place a natural, sharp, or flat before every note. No double sharps or double flats, and no natural without its symbol. No B-sharps or E-sharps; no C-flats or F-flats. The choice of sharp or flat is (sometimes) guided by ascending or descending phrases, respectively. Obviously, the notation will be different for different transposing instruments—and strings "prefer" sharps, whereas winds (particularly trombones) seem to "prefer" flats where there are otherwise even choices. This is (perhaps surprisingly) easy to read.

[tbdana]

I assumed the opinions would all be, "write whatever is easiest for the musicians to read." But no! I dunno, this just seems way more complicated than it needs to be, to a simpleton like me. I just like to see things written the way they are easiest to read and play.

[Sesquitone]

Sometimes, especially when working with (enharmonic 12-note equitempered ) non-diatonic theory, it's handy to have (single-syllable) note names that are independent of sharps, flats and naturals. For example, on a standard keyboard, if we start with the "white notes", A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and then keep going up through the alphabet on the "black notes", H, I, J, K, L, we've got (single-syllable) names for all the notes of the chromatic scale. [I realise that the "B" and "H" conflict with German names for alternative notes.]

A chromatic scale starting from pitch-class C is: C J D K E F L G H A I B (C). Try "singing" this (with correct relative pitch) out loud or silently ("in your head"), ascending and descending. Now try some of you favourite chords, scales, licks, or songs—in different "keys". For example, the 8-note major bebop scale (on C), emphasising chord tones (of a C6 chord) is: C D E F G H A B (C). This is the same 8-note scale for Am7. And the complementary scale, D E F G H A B C (D), works well over dominant harmony in C major or A minor. [Note that this is not one of the two standard octatonic scales, even though the corresponding chord is a diminished seventh.]

Now "think" these note names as you play the respective notes on you instrument. If it's a transposing instrument, try first with nominal (i.e. instrument-specific) names, then with "absolute" pitch-class names.

If you work with (enharmonic) theory, try using these unadorned note names rather than (randomly assigned) sharps, flats, or naturals.

[VJOFan]

Sometimes, especially when working with (enharmonic 12-note equitempered ) non-diatonic theory, it's handy to have (single-syllable) note names that are independent of sharps, flats and naturals. For example, on a standard keyboard, if we start with the "white notes", A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and then keep going up through the alphabet on the "black notes", H, I, J, K, L, we've got (single-syllable) names for all the notes of the chromatic scale. [I realise that the "B" and "H" conflict with German names for alternative notes.]

A chromatic scale starting from pitch-class C is: C J D K E F L G H A I B (C). Try "singing" this (with correct relative pitch) out loud or silently ("in your head"), ascending and descending. Now try some of you favourite chords, scales, licks, or songs—in different "keys". For example, the 8-note major bebop scale (on C), emphasising chord tones (of a C6 chord) is: C D E F G H A B (C). This is the same 8-note scale for Am7. And the complementary scale, D E F G H A B C (D), works well over dominant harmony in C major or A minor. [Note that this is not one of the two standard octatonic scales, even though the corresponding chord is a diminished seventh.]

Now "think" these note names as you play the respective notes on you instrument. If it's a transposing instrument, try first with nominal (i.e. instrument-specific) names, then with "absolute" pitch-class names.

If you work with (enharmonic) theory, try using these unadorned note names rather than (randomly assigned) sharps, flats, or naturals.

How does that translate into writing sheet music for wind players to perform? Is there a special staff to learn to read?

[BGuttman]

How does that translate into writing sheet music for wind players to perform? Is there a special staff to learn to read?

Very simply: Oboe, flute, and bassoon; and trombone and tuba players have no transposition. What they see is what comes out.
Clarinets, tenor saxophones, and trumpets need the music written a whole step up and with 2 extra sharps or two less flats. and exceptions for A clarinets or trumpets in a different key from Bb.
English Horn and French Horn are written a 4th higher with one less flat or one more sharp.
Alto and Baritone saxophones are written a third lower with 3 more sharps or 3 less flats.

If you are into clefs to read other instruments' music:

Bb instrument parts can be read as tenor clef. Add 2 flats or remove 2 sharps from the key signature.
F instrument parts can be read as mezzo soprano clef (movable C on second line from the bottom of the staff). Add one flat or remove one sharp from the key signature.
Eb instruments (written in treble clef) can be read as bass clef. Add 3 flats or remove 3 sharps from the key signature.

[VJOFan]

How does that translate into writing sheet music for wind players to perform? Is there a special staff to learn to read?

Very simply: Oboe, flute, and bassoon; and trombone and tuba players have no transposition. What they see is what comes out.
Clarinets, tenor saxophones, and trumpets need the music written a whole step up and with 2 extra sharps or two less flats. and exceptions for A clarinets or trumpets in a different key from Bb.
English Horn and French Horn are written a 4th higher with one less flat or one more sharp.
Alto and Baritone saxophones are written a third lower with 3 more sharps or 3 less flats.

If you are into clefs to read other instruments' music:

Bb instrument parts can be read as tenor clef. Add 2 flats or remove 2 sharps from the key signature.
F instrument parts can be read as mezzo soprano clef (movable C on second line from the bottom of the staff). Add one flat or remove one sharp from the key signature.
Eb instruments (written in treble clef) can be read as bass clef. Add 3 flats or remove 3 sharps from the key signature.

That’s not the question I was asking. I know how to set up a band or orchestra score and understand transpositions. I was asking about the quoted A,B,C,D,E,F,G.H.I.J.K.L system description I quoted before my question.

[Sesquitone]

How does that translate into writing sheet music for wind players to perform? Is there a special staff to learn to read?

The “H-I-J-K-L-black-note” system is designed for theoretical discussion of pitch-classes in 12-note equitemperament. In other words, to give the “black-notes” their own single-symbol (and single-syllable) names—instead of being thought of (and notated) as “altered white-notes”—in analysis, composition and more general theory. It is not designed for direct reading by instrumentalists from a “special staff”. However, a special (non-diatonic) staff can be used for direct composition.

Sixty years ago, I experimented with just such a “Grand Staff” for “accidental-free” composition: using 12-tone graph paper, consisting entirely of spaces (separated by thin horizontal lines). Some lines (e.g. those bracketing C4 and octaves) are emphasized in order to give some vertical orientation for the composer. A note (to be played) is represented by placing a coloured segment (e.g. coloured pencil mark) in the space representing the desired note. Different colours for different instrument groups. Placement and length of segment represent beginning and duration of note (read left-to-right). This allows for anything ranging from “free” atonal (serial or otherwise) writing to structured (e.g. “synthetic-scale”) systems. In the latter case, “non-scale” pitch-classes can be greyed out. Of course, the notes are then transcribed into standard diatonic staff notation for the individual instruments.

I attach a snippet of an original score for wind trio [for alto flute (pink), clarinet (purple) and bass trombone (brown)] using the darkest possible version of all seven-note scales consisting of combinations of major and minor seconds spanning an octave, with C as the tonic: C, J, D, E, L, H, I, (C). [In diatonic notation, this would be: C, Db, Ebb, Fb, Gb, Ab, Bb, (C).] This movement consists of a series of cadences on (3-part voicings of) the tonic ninth chord: C-D-L-I-J (C-Ebb-Gb-Bb-Db), separated by jolly “chatter” among the three voices. The final cadence chord is a sustained incomplete ninth: C2 (root, trombone), D4 (third, clarinet), J5 (ninth, alto flute)—an exploded minor-second cluster (not shown here).

If you were to punch out the line segments and turn the paper 90º CW, you’d have what looks a lot like a portion of a player-piano roll (bass notes to the left, treble to the right, paper glides up over the suction holes).

No doubt, this accidental-free composition idea could be “computerized” and linked to a synthesizer and manuscript-writing software. Perhaps this has already been done; if not, there’s a patent waiting to be awarded.






.

[robcat2075]

Here's an interesting bit of computer notation that came up on a Facebook short. At first look it seems like a haphazard deployment of courtesy accidentals but I presume this condensed score was derived from the separate sax parts in which all the accidentals would be proper and timely.

SaxSoli.jpg