Balance with violin, cello, e-harpsichord

[MrHCinDE]

I’m due to play at the works Christmas party in a large function room (800m2, mainly about 10m high). We’re planning to go with a Telemann trio sonata, violin on the 1st part, me on 2nd, cello and E-harpsichord for a written basso continuo.

We don’t have the luxury of much practice time to try out different combinations.

I’m concerned about how to balance the 1st and 2nd parts. It’s a given that I’m going to have to put my part down an octave, my trumpet playing isn’t quite ready to play at the original pitch.

My plan at the moment is to play bass trumpet, it’s a bit less resonant than trombone/euphonium/tenorhorn but at this point I’m only guessing what will work best. My other idea was alto trombone.

My question is, how much can a single violin carry in such a setting? Even playing on my lightest setup, might I need to also use a mute?

[ithinknot]

You've got the right idea... volume will be what it will be, but you can manage width and weight of sound. Alto would be nice if it's comfortable for you.

Violin can carry very well, but that's extremely player-dependent.

Bring a nice, non-"thin" cup mute with you just in case.

The Glühwein will flow, and the performance will be a triumph.

[MrHCinDE]

I’m reasonably comfortable on alto in general, the only thing is that transposed down one octave from the original pitch it sits a bit low on the Eb instrument. There are quite a few exposed Gs and As etc. so it’s on the high side for alto (at original pitch) and certainly not something I can play reliably with any delicacy.

I’ll have a look what mutes I have that might fit the bass trumpet or alto trombone.

The whole event starts about 5pm and runs until at least 3am so it’s safe to say there is plenty of time for consumption. Fortunately we are playing during the opening speeches. There’s usually a DJ from about 10pm so I can also go and have a jam along to whatever they’re playing.

[JohnL]

I’ll have a look what mutes I have that might fit the bass trumpet or alto trombone.

I'm thinking a bucket might work well, but finding one in that fits as bass trumpet or alto trombone might be a challenge.

[MrHCinDE]

I do have a bucket for small tenor, maybe small tenor with that mute would be another one to try.

[ithinknot]

I’m reasonably comfortable on alto in general, the only thing is that transposed down one octave from the original pitch it sits a bit low on the Eb instrument. There are quite a few exposed Gs and As etc. so it’s on the high side for alto (at original pitch) and certainly not something I can play reliably with any delicacy.

On either instrument don't worry about consistently transposing... you don't want to completely mangle motivic contours, but otherwise feel free to hop octaves between phrases, or at the inflection points within a phrase.

[harrisonreed]

Alto plus Denis Wick flugelhorn straight mute should make the G's playable with a lot more certainty (you get more resistance and it'll reduce volume so you can push those out), and help a bit with the volume overall. I don't know if the mute's emphasis on higher harmonics will help or hinder you in blending with the violin. I don't know about having a lot of A's though, even muted, that would be pushing it. But it's also possible to arrange your part so that that most of it is at the original octave and you stratigically come down on runs that go up to the high A or G.

FWIW, a violin can be quite loud and resonant, so you should be able to meet in the middle.

[BGuttman]

I played in a trio with two strings (violin and violin/viola) on the cello line. No opportunity for rehearsal. I had originally planned to use my "hackbut" (cut off bell Holton Collegiate) but there were too many notes below the staff so I switched to my Bach 36B. Had to watch volume but I made it work. I think a SofTone draped over the bell would have helped a lot.

[WilliamLang]

After playing piano trios replacing the cello part, violins can absolutely be louder than the trombone to the audience's perception, depending on register, and can almost never be buried. The sound spectrum that the instruments occupy spectrally is just so different.

I wouldn't use a mute because of potential intonation issues, as in tune is better than any sort of dynamic compromise. Just play comfortably and sensitively.

[Posaunus]

I'd give a Softone (neoprene) mute a try. I don't think these create serious intonation problems, and they are not (particularly) bell-size dependent - just drape a tenor trombone Softone mute loosely over your bell. Blow gently, and you have a good chance of blending and making nice music!

[LeTromboniste]

You might want to consider repertoire that's actually written for violin, trombone and a bass instrument that can be replaced by cello (i.e. gamba or bassoon), or for violin, trombone and continuo where the trombone part is not just based on the bass line and where you can have the cello playing the continuo with harpsichord. Then you wouldn't have to worry about the transposition (transposing a violin part down an octave comes with a bunch of issues, where you might often end up lower than the bassline and also have a huge distance between the two voices), and also the balance wouldn't be as much of an issue.

[MrHCinDE]

Thanks for the suggestions, some food for thought.

In case anyone’s wondering, the chosen piece is this:


It’s a bit late for this year but I’ll certainly take any suggestions for next year’s repertoire.

[ithinknot]

In case anyone’s wondering, the chosen piece is this:

Ah, no major issues re part crossing with the bass in that, even if you take the line down the octave consistently.

There are certainly more idiomatic options out there, but I guess in this context you're probably limited to rep for which you can find editorial realisations for the e-continuo.

[harrisonreed]

Hearing that, the obvious choice to replace the wind instrument would be tenor sackbut, down an octave. If you had $9000 to spend and a lifetime to get good at it. Where's Adam Woolf at?

That's a beautiful piece. It's gonna be fine on tenor.

[MrHCinDE]

I almost forgot about it but actually I do have a tenor hackbut, it’s a Besson 10-10 with a cut down bell. That’s probably also worth a try if the bass trumpet doesn’t work in the rehearsal.

I still won’t sound like Adam Woolf but can’t blame the horn for that! I’m not sure a lifetime of practice would help much either.

[LeTromboniste]

Hearing that, the obvious choice to replace the wind instrument would be tenor sackbut, down an octave. If you had $9000 to spend and a lifetime to get good at it. Where's Adam Woolf at?

That's a beautiful piece. It's gonna be fine on tenor.

I know that's tongue in cheek but I'll bite anyway. Yes, modern trombone is indeed perfectly fine and will probably work better with the modern violin than a sackbut would. Besides, I know few people who would play Telemann on sackbut, since he none of his music is likely to have been played on trombone at the time. Playing it now on modern trombone is perfectly acceptable.

That said, sackbuts don't start at 9000$, and it doesn't take a lifetime to be good at it. A trombonist with a decent to good technique can become quite proficient on sackbut within a year or two of dedicated work.

Adam is doing mostly web developing now.


Back to OP's query, thanks for clarifying which piece it is. This piece will indeed work fine down the octave since it doesn't go into the low range of the violin. The trills are mostly all still in a practical range, too, which is nice. There's only a couple places where the continuo might want to also play down to avoid 6/4 chords (when they have middle C and you have G in the staff). Beautiful piece!

Alto trombone would work but frankly tenor (small or medium if possible but really any tenor) is probably your best bet here. Just play lightly and with nice phrasing and varied articulation and it'll be great!

[dukesboneman]

I wouldn`t use a mute at all. That would change the sound and color of the piece too much and open a whole new basket of intonation issues that you don`t need to deal with.
I would use a smaller horn, maybe a Bach36 or even smaller that way you`re going to blend better with the Violin and cello. Use your musicianship, listen across the ensemble and try to blend with the other instruments. The sound of violin and trombone is beautiful. I`d love to do something like that.
Check out the Castello Consort - They do a lot with Early Music with Sackbut. Love this group

[MrHCinDE]

And the winner is…
.
.
.

Bass trumpet (or some might say tenor? it‘s the Lidl Brno one in Bb with piston valves)

It sits nicely between the cello and violin, is not over-powering, trills are easy, it can brighten up in one or two places without burying everything. All round a clear winner for me.

The only downside is quite a bit of necessity for tuning adjustment with the lips, that would be easier on a bone for sure.

[Posaunus]

Richard,
Can you post a preview video?

[MrHCinDE]

Too late for a preview, no more rehearsals before the performance. I‘ll see what I can do about a video of the gig.

[AtomicClock]

I'm just astounded that a work Christmas party would welcome a Telemann trio sonata. Must be a very special workplace.

[MrHCinDE]

I'm just astounded that a work Christmas party would welcome a Telemann trio sonata. Must be a very special workplace.

It‘s an engineering consultancy and indeed a very nice place to work. It‘s a family-owned company which has been going for over 100 years. Not many of those around!

I‘ve been surprised how many of my colleagues regularly go to classical music concerts, not only the well-publicised large professional orchestra ones but also chamber music, amateur and student concerts.

The evening usually starts quite highbrow with speeches from the family etc. and I think people generally appreciate the sense of occasion that a bit of live chamber music brings to frame the speeches but I don‘t think our little group would be able to compete with the pull of the DJ as the night goes on into the early hours, the end of the evening is not quite as highbrow…

[MrHCinDE]

Update:

The party was today, in the end I stuck with the bass trumpet and it worked out pretty well. Some audience feedback:

-The sound of the bass trumpet filled the room but was not too brash/overpowering

-was that a Flügelhorn?

-the balance between all instruments was very good

-I couldn‘t hear the piano (btw. the e-Harpsichord didn‘t work out so we were violin, bass trumpet, cello and piano)

-are you bookable for birthdays/weddings

I‘m happy enough with the outcome and am pleased that a few hundred people now know what a bass trumpet sounds like. I think the blend with the violin was pretty good in the end so would recommend to give it a try. There should be plenty of repertoire which would work with a bit of carefulness.

If a recording appears, I‘ll try to share it.

[harrisonreed]

For e-harpsichord I would highly recommend Pianoteq. Any version will come with the option to download a few very good harpsichords regardless of what paid packs you choose, but you can also get their premium harpsichord as one of your instrument packs if you want to use a paid slot.

That plus a midi keyboard, gets you the best fake harpsichord I've found. You can tweak it in so many different ways.

https://www.modartt.com/harpsichord

Here are the "free" ones ( included with any paid license, not standalone ):

https://www.modartt.com/pianoteq_free

[MrHCinDE]

Since someone asked about a preview video, the best I can do is a couple of audio snippets from when we had a quick play through in rehearsal:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lF7b0C ... share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19vjWxO ... share_link

[hyperbolica]

Since someone asked about a preview video, the best I can do is a couple of audio snippets from when we had a quick play through in rehearsal:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lF7b0C ... share_link

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19vjWxO ... share_link

When I hear that it sounds like a French horn would be ideal. Nice sound, though.