Different kinds of buzzing

[Lowbrassbrian]

Hello all,

I'm sure this has been a discussion in the past, but I figured I'd ask anyway. Recently I have been talking with some friends and teachers about the different kinds of buzzing we can do as players and how they can benefit us. I know that some players are very against buzzing, but for me I have found that buzzing can help problems such as response. I am a big fan of mouthpiece buzzing and occasionally do leadpipe buzzing, when I really feel like I need the extra resistance. I know there are many other forms though such as practice rim buzzing, cutaway mouthpiece buzzing, and free buzzing as far as I am aware, though I am sure there are more. So what are your thoughts on buzzing, the different kinds of buzzing, and the takeaways you have from both! I am all ears!

Thanks for reading,
Brian

[Burgerbob]

I recently had a lesson with David Cantero, he advocates for a very airy, very "loud" buzz. Not one that "sounds good." In his opinion it matches much more closely the way we actually play the horn- the drawback of course is that there's no horn to add resistance, so your phrasing on the mouthpiece is much, much shorter.

I have been trying it on and off for quite some time, it really does showcase if you are using a compromised setup in a given range. It also forces you to use plenty of air right off the bat, which helps someone like me.

[wnlqxod]

I am only familiar with mouthpiece buzzing, so that is what I will comment on.

In terms of benefits, I would say:

- Paying complete attention to how one's embouchure is formed and functioning, by intentionally removing the potential distraction that is the horn;

- Speaking of embouchure mindfulness, there will be times where you cannot use the sound coming from the horn to help you adjust. In this case, one must REALLY know what correct muscle memory around the face "feels like", so that one is confident that one is producing a good sound, and one knows and can make adjustments needed on the fly. Mouthpiece buzzing helps develop this feel.

- Learning to buzz the correct pitch from the mouthpiece first, because relying on the instrument correcting the pitch for you does not produce a good sound (to roughly quote Jay Friedman: "if you buzz a C and put the slide in 1st position, a D will come about. It will sound flat, dull, and lifeless, but it will be there.")

- Learning to steadily exhale air and support with one's diaphragm... without resistance to help you. At least IMO, glissing on the horn is a good way to practice; glissing on the mouthpiece is better (and harder, but it will do one good), provided that one has solid grasp of what good embouchure "feels like".

[AndrewMeronek]

I'm against buzzing, but not "very". I just think it's too different from playing the trombone to be all that useful to train muscle-feel and muscle-memory motions. I think that it can be beneficial for vanilla strength-building. And pushing and shoving and stuff, it can be a useful tool to break someone out of always "feeling" the same wrong technique, if they are having a hard time changing a bad habit that relates to the embouchure. It probably won't be "correct" but at least it will be different.

edit: also, it may be useful if someone has their horn physically obstructing a good embouchure angle. Getting the neckpiece out of the way might be helpful.

[WilliamLang]

I find buzzing can be a fine diagnostic tool for breaking down issues, a good way for creating a solid mind-body connection with pitch, and an excellent way to lock in excerpts that you want to consistently execute one way every time.

With that said, for my own practice it's a rare tool that comes out of the case. I find I use it more as a teacher than as a performer.

[harrisonreed]

- Learning to buzz the correct pitch from the mouthpiece first, because relying on the instrument correcting the pitch for you does not produce a good sound (to roughly quote Jay Friedman: "if you buzz a C and put the slide in 1st position, a D will come about. It will sound flat, dull, and lifeless, but it will be there.")

- Learning to steadily exhale air and support with one's diaphragm... without resistance to help you. At least IMO, glissing on the horn is a good way to practice; glissing on the mouthpiece is better (and harder, but it will do one good), provided that one has solid grasp of what good embouchure "feels like".

I disagree with both of these points. The horn length absolutely determines the pitch, and you use your chops to your own detriment to fix it. The chops need to settle into the pitch that the slide and partial demand. This is what Jay is saying, I think. The D sounds even though you are buzzing a C.

The embouchure formation partially relies on the feedback / resistance from the horn, as does the user of your air while playing. Getting good at these things without the horn is just creating some learned habit you need to unlearn when you are actually playing.

[wnlqxod]

I disagree with both of these points. The horn length absolutely determines the pitch, and you use your chops to your own detriment to fix it. The chops need to settle into the pitch that the slide and partial demand. This is what Jay is saying, I think. The D sounds even though you are buzzing a C.

The embouchure formation partially relies on the feedback / resistance from the horn, as does the user of your air while playing. Getting good at these things without the horn is just creating some learned habit you need to unlearn when you are actually playing.

As for the first point, are you saying that since the horn "autocorrects" one's mouthpiece buzzing to an extent, there is a sweet spot where one can buzz a lower pitch than intended without sacrificing tone quality?

As for the second point, I will admit that I forgot about the resistance provided by the horn, and I will concede that the resistance of the horn plays a more important role in embouchure feedback than I previously thought.

With this being said, I think I will still stick to the notion that the lack of resistance with a mouthpiece makes proper support harder- if one can provide steady support on something like a mouthpiece, then such a feat will only feel easier when resistance/blowback is added.

[timothy42b]

The chops need to settle into the pitch that the slide and partial demand.

Yes. But nobody knows how that happens.

[harrisonreed]

I don't want to start a buzz no buzz debate again. So I'm just sticking to the specific questions:

As for the first point, are you saying that since the horn "autocorrects" one's mouthpiece buzzing to an extent, there is a sweet spot where one can buzz a lower pitch than intended without sacrificing tone quality?

No, you're going in a different direction with it. Forget about buzzing a pitch -- that's not what is happening when you play. When you are playing a brass instrument you aren't actively buzzing the mouthpiece. You do need an initial articulation into the system to get the air vibrating in the horn, and the partial you hit is determined by the aperture you form and the air flow through it, but because of point 2 (below) this all needs to account for the rest of the horn. It bears little resemblance to what your face has to do to buzz into a 3" long mouthpiece. The frequency that this all vibrates at naturally is determined by the length of the horn, and your lips can either immediately adjust to vibrate sympathetically with the horn, or you can fight it and try to adjust the pitch with your face. For the best tone, you simultaneously sync your face with the horn, and adjust the slide to the exact pitch you want. This is in line with what you quoted Jay as saying. Something to the effect of, you can buzz the wrong pitch if you want, but if you're fighting the horn it will sound bad. I don't know what the actual quote was that you were referencing, though.

As for the second point, I will admit that I forgot about the resistance provided by the horn, and I will concede that the resistance of the horn plays a more important role in embouchure feedback than I previously thought.

Yeah, it is everything. The whole reason why people stress over building custom horns and getting a horn that is easy to play is because they are trying to find something that is easy for them to do everything I described above with it. Whether they know it or not. The embouchure you make to buzz a 3" mouthpiece (which should actually sound many octaves higher if we actually could "play" the mouthpiece and get it to vibrate) has nothing to do with the embouchure you use on a 8' trombone. And the resistance/materials/feedback from the horn have a big effect on how your embouchure needs to interact with the system.

With this being said, I think I will still stick to the notion that the lack of resistance with a mouthpiece makes proper support harder- if one can provide steady support on something like a mouthpiece, then such a feat will only feel easier when resistance/blowback is added.

This seems like the comparison to weight training. In weight training terms, buzzing a mouthpiece is like doing situps -- situps usually seem like an ab exercise. But actually, situps make your hip flexors stronger and injure your back if you don't do them correctly, and it's easy to do situps incorrectly. I'd compare actually playing the trombone to holding a plank with your knees on the ground, for a really long time, which also seems like an ab exercise. Maybe if are playing high the knees come off the ground, and you use your abs a little more to hold yourself in place, and it gets harder to stay stable. But holding a plank you're just keeping an equilibrium, using lots of muscles just a little bit. You can get really good at situps and have mega hip flexors, but these don't come into play much when you hold a plank.

[baileyman]

Especially when trying to get an intricate figure to sound, playing slowly, slowly on the piece, fast on the piece, fast on the horn, seems quite helpful.

[RustBeltBass]

For me, buzzing should be done as taught by the Chicago School. And what that means for me is to buzz songs, arias, anthems etc.
I do that before starting to play the trombone for about 15 minutes.
The idea is to activate the “musical mind”, meaning I try to sing the song loudly in my mind and let this imagination lead my lips to do what they need to do. The song is the major drive in this, and the weight of the horn, the slide, the valves are just being added later with the song still being in the foreground of what I think about when I practice.

This is very simple minded, maybe a bit dogmatic, but when I started to work this way when I came to the USA, a lot of things I had problems with fell into place.

I do not really think of what my lips do or don’t do differently than when I play the instrument, I do not think about embouchure during the buzzing. If I did, I feel it would detrimental to what the buzzing helps me to do.

I sometimes take breaks from it for 2-3 weeks. I do so in order to keep it “fresh” as a concept and look forward to resuming my buzzing sessions.

Again, for me this has changed everything. However, I will say that it is not for everyone, I have seen people do it the same way I do and the results were better than mine/not existent/problematic to the player. Overall I feel personally that it is very difficult to really have negative effects caused by buzzing if it is used in that way….but I have seen it happen.
Overall, while it is good to review and question things over time, I am a bit concerned that buzzing seems to be under more and more scrutiny and in some cases even discouraged. But there a countless examples of very successful younger musicians who do not buzz and sound amazing. To each their own.

[Kbiggs]

Very interesting points, Harrison. I’m not sure I agree with them, but they are definitely food for thought.

One thing in particular is the phrase, “The embouchure you make to buzz a 3” mouthpiece… has nothing to do with the embouchure you use on a 8' trombone.” Yes, a freebuzzing embouchure, a mouthpiece embouchure, a buzzing tube/device embouchure, and a completely assembled instrument embouchure are all slightly different, given the relative length or lack of tubing. Like you and qnlqxod both mentioned, the resistance and the feedback (here I would say “influenced by materials and tapers”) from exciting an existing air column by buzzing the lips is different than buzzing away from the horn.

One metaphor that works for me is that buzzing of different kinds is similar to but not the same as the different exercises used by athletes, like stretching, weight training, breaking down a complex series of actions by analyzing specific motions through slow motion camera, etc. Buzzing, by removing different parts of the process and focusing on specific actions, can help identify what’s happening and suggest a way to improve.

Yes, it’s different. But that difference, or “strangeness”, can be helpful. My 2 cents.



I wrote the following paragraph, then realized it was a tangent. Aside from the memory problem, I liked it enough to share it. Apologies for the tangent.

Like you, I don’t want to get into the buzz/no-buzz debate, as that’s not the point of the thread. Still, your argument implies that buzzing away from the assembled horn is so different as to be… avoided? useless? Still, I believe that when done properly, there is value to some kinds of buzzing. It helps to train the connection between the ear and the lips (neural connections between sensory and motor functions. It helps as a didactic tool. It also helps as (forgive my memory; I can’t remember the word) an intermediate step between simply forming an embouchure and developing accuracy, tone, articulation.

[harrisonreed]

Very interesting points, Harrison. I’m not sure I agree with them, but they are definitely food for thought.

One thing in particular is the phrase, “The embouchure you make to buzz a 3” mouthpiece… has nothing to do with the embouchure you use on a 8' trombone.” Yes, a freebuzzing embouchure, a mouthpiece embouchure, a buzzing tube/device embouchure, and a completely assembled instrument embouchure are all slightly different, given the relative length or lack of tubing. Like you and qnlqxod both mentioned, the resistance and the feedback (here I would say “influenced by materials and tapers”) from exciting an existing air column by buzzing the lips is different than buzzing away from the horn.

The thing you absolutely have to realize in this discussion, and you do because you're talking about it in your post, is that playing a brass involves applying energy to and exciting an existing column of air into vibrating. If you take away that air column, what are you doing?

You aren't exciting an air column or causing it to vibrate on the 3" mouthpiece when you buzz. If you were, it would sound in a similar range to a piccolo, close to the sound made by closing the cup with your palm and blowing air quickly across the end of the shank.

The only way to get the buzz in the trombone register is to introduce artificial resistance at your lips, and cause them to buzz. But they aren't going to slot or lock onto anything because they're not doing any "work" in the physics sense of that term on the air in the mouthpiece.

So how do we buzz? What are we trying to train?

[Burgerbob]

I mean, you can say all that... But it still helps some players immensely.

[SGH]

I’d like to point out that buzzing, with or without a mouthpiece, is not just lips or aperture. There may not be a horn to provide a resonant air column, but there is an additional resonant chamber in the embouchure formed by the oral cavity and tongue position. When I mouthpiece buzz, I don’t use lip tension to provide the requisite missing resistance. I find I only need additional resistance for lower pitches and I supply that by partially occluding the shank opening with my fingers enclosing the shank. The pitch exiting the mouthpiece is not necessarily musical, but responds very well to tongue position.

[harrisonreed]

I mean, you can say all that... But it still helps some players immensely.

Right but, what is it that they are training? Not a snidey question. I really don't know.

[RustBeltBass]

I mean, you can say all that... But it still helps some players immensely.

That is the key phrase in this conversation. If it doesn’t help stay far away, but if it does, do it.

[tbdana]

I dunno. I buzz lips a little before playing, I buzz the mouthpiece for about thirty seconds, I do some sharp exhales, and then I play my first notes of the day. That hasn't hurt me, and I don't know if it has helped. But it makes the first notes feel easier.

[bitbckt]

I think it was Alex Iles quoting Ralph Sauer who said (paraphrasing from memory), “if you think there are tiny green men from outer space living in your bell shoveling out your sound with tiny shovels, and that makes you play better, don’t let anybody convince you otherwise.”

The buzzing discussions remind me of that when they come up around here.

[Doug Elliott]

I find that if I spend about 2 minutes setting up my trombone stand, getting my horn out of the gig bag and putting it together, my first notes sound better than if I don't do those things.

I freebuzz a little bit nearly every day, in the range from low Bb to double high Bb. I never buzz on the mouthpiece... unless it's attached to the horn.

[Kbiggs]

Very interesting points, Harrison. I’m not sure I agree with them, but they are definitely food for thought.

One thing in particular is the phrase, “The embouchure you make to buzz a 3” mouthpiece… has nothing to do with the embouchure you use on a 8' trombone.” Yes, a freebuzzing embouchure, a mouthpiece embouchure, a buzzing tube/device embouchure, and a completely assembled instrument embouchure are all slightly different, given the relative length or lack of tubing. Like you and qnlqxod both mentioned, the resistance and the feedback (here I would say “influenced by materials and tapers”) from exciting an existing air column by buzzing the lips is different than buzzing away from the horn.

The thing you absolutely have to realize in this discussion, and you do because you're talking about it in your post, is that playing a brass involves applying energy to and exciting an existing column of air into vibrating. If you take away that air column, what are you doing?

You aren't exciting an air column or causing it to vibrate on the 3" mouthpiece when you buzz. If you were, it would sound in a similar range to a piccolo, close to the sound made by closing the cup with your palm and blowing air quickly across the end of the shank.

The only way to get the buzz in the trombone register is to introduce artificial resistance at your lips, and cause them to buzz. But they aren't going to slot or lock onto anything because they're not doing any "work" in the physics sense of that term on the air in the mouthpiece.

So how do we buzz? What are we trying to train?

We agree that buzzing on the mouthpiece (or a mpc. with an attached device, or even free-buzzing) is nothing like buzzing the lips when they meet the mouthpiece attached to the instrument (the “fully assembled instrument,” if you will—hard machine and soft machine, as it were). What’s missing from my post is the bit about the metaphor of training.

Here’s a comparison to help make this point clearly: Does an athlete work only on the event in which they compete? Do runners practice only running, to the exclusion of other exercises like weights and flexibility? If they are long-distance runners, do they practice only running long distances like 5k or 10k or above, or do they mix it up? If they are sprinters, do they run only their event, whether it’s 100 meters, 500 m, or 1,000m? Do they never run a 10k or above?

Does a boxer only spar in the ring to the exclusion of other exercises and activities like jumping rope, speed bags, punching bags, ducking, etc.? Of course not.

Think of cross-training and CrossFit (which, for the record, I’ve never done but I’ve talked with a few who practice it and a few who left the *cult*). The whole point behind CrossFit is to isolate specific movements and turn those movements into a specific task. That specific task, when you think of the purpose behind cross training, is what helps or bolsters particular composite actions. For competitive weight training, you grab the bar like this, you hold your back like this, you space your feet this width apart, etc.

For that matter, how do you learn differential calculus? You start with arithmetic, then geometry, then algebra, then pre-calc, then trigonometry, then calculus. [I’m sure the progression is different in different countries.] They are all math, but they are all different. We build on things to learn more and different things.

There are all sorts of things we do as musicians to isolate techniques. When we can’t get that lick in a piece, what do we do? We isolate it and work on it. We can play in tempo and play three notes at a time, then five notes at a time, etc., until we’ve played the entire lick. We can change the rhythm. We can play it in inversion or retrograde or retrograde-inversion. We play it in different keys, different registers, or different articulations.

We isolate it, remove it from its familiar setting, introduce something else to challenge ourselves, and practice “around it,” so to speak, by making it strange and unfamiliar. The intervals, or rhythm, or etc., may be the same, but when we get back to the lick as written, it doesn’t feel as hard emotionally and musically, and it doesn’t feel as difficult technically and physically.

So this is my reason for buzzing of any kind, when done properly: it helps isolate and train the nerves and soft tissues (muscles, ligaments, tendons) what it is kind of like when we are playing the instrument, and it isolates a particular set of soft tissues and focuses on their particular function. The “kind of” in that last sentence is important.

Yes, buzzing of any kind is different than playing the instrument. And that is the point.

***

Alas and alack, the post has been diverted to the argument of buzzing vs. non-buzzing. Perhaps any further discussion on that topic can be discussed in a separate thread?

For now, I just want to add that various points in my life, I’ve used—and hopefully benefitted from—different kinds of buzzing. I’ve used free-buzzing, the pinky slightly covering the end of the mpc., a BERP, a Sauer FART, and a Short Cut.

End of rant.

[harrisonreed]

So, to the OP, and to your point, and away from the debate that I want to avoid too, how do you do it properly?

How do you make buzzing something that isn't doing situps to train for doing a plank?

[WilliamLang]

By striving to make it in time, in tune, and musical, whatever the physical benefits may be.

[CaptEquinox]

If you take away that air column, what are you doing?

You're holding your chops in an embouchure formation, and then:

1) Blowing against the lips until they vibrate
2) Placing the mouthpiece on your chops, then blowing against your lips until they vibrate.
3) Likewise with a lead pipe or a piece of surgical tube attached.

Of course, the adding of the (whatever length) horn, with its unavoidable air column, makes a huge difference. It's like gravitational pull. And yet, it's still possible, consciously or subconsciously, to "lip" notes all over the place.

So, buzzing can do a few things:

1) Establish an efficient embouchure formation that will respond to your blow.
2) Substitute vibrating lips for vocal cords for a kind of "singing" with the mouthpiece. (see above)
3) A kind of a physical cross-training. (see above)

[Kbiggs]

WilliamLang and CaptEquinox said it better.