Why are earlier horns better?

Elow · Post by **Elow** » Tue May 26, 2020 10:27 pm

It seems like for every manufacturer, the older the better. What makes elkhart conns so good? Why are new york bachs so much better? I mean its cool and all to have a low serial number, but does the era of horn really make that much of a difference. I havent heard the same about shires or edwards, maybe because they arent so old. I just dont understand why manufacturers cant produce the same quality horns, if not higher quality. I am just a high school student so please enlighten me

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Tue May 26, 2020 10:57 pm

Easy answer.

They're not!

braymond21 · Post by **braymond21** » Tue May 26, 2020 11:08 pm

I don't think it's so much that they're better, but different. With companies that have been around for a long time like Bach, many things change in their manufacturing and design process so there may be things about the older horns that people tend to like more than the modern horns. They're not really better, just different.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Tue May 26, 2020 11:30 pm

New trombones from many manufacturers - Bach, Conn, King, Yamaha, Edwards, Getzen, Shires, Rath, Courtois, ... can be superb – often more consistent and better in many respects than any ever made before. Of course they may have different characteristics than the old artisan-crafted models, with all their "personality," that you'll see described by TromboneChat afficionados (and which are only available "used"). New trombones are typically quite a bit more expensive than these older models, making them less attractive to us collectors. Many of us are searching for bargains (only to be found in older instruments) or following dreams from long ago. But many working professional musicians – who must depend on their instruments for their income – choose to play new trombones.

Yes, some of the older favorites may have legendary quality – or quirks – but I expect that the truly great ones are few and far between. And there was a time when some of the large U.S. factories let quality slip drastically during periods of cost-cutting and labor strife, but most of those issues are now in the past. Older is NOT necessarily better.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Wed May 27, 2020 12:49 am

Unanswerable.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Wed May 27, 2020 1:24 am

Depends on the company and your definition of better.

No one thought Elkhart Conns were exceptional until McMillan bought Conn and moved production to Abilene, Texas.

Generally, the farther back you go in an company's history, the smaller it was. New York Bachs were built in a small factory, probably more along the lines of the way modern "boutique" manufacturers operate than the way modern Bach instruments are built.

There are exceptions. Modern Getzen trombones are probably the best to ever carry the name. Early Yamaha instruments aren't in the same league as current production Xenos.

brassmedic · Post by **brassmedic** » Wed May 27, 2020 2:07 am

Dang. You stole my answer. Conn was better because they were creative, worked really hard on R&D, and had a good work ethic. Then they got bought out by a publishing company who didn't know what they were doing. Original Bach trombones were all custom made. Later ones were mass produced. Still good, but not AS good. But that's not always the case. Getzen improved over time. I'd take an Edwards made right now over any Getzen made in the 1970s.

FOSSIL · Post by **FOSSIL** » Wed May 27, 2020 2:09 am

Brass instrument manufacturer is more industrial process than artisan endeavour for the most part. Small groups or even single highly skilled individuals have, historically been more likely to produce fine instruments ... think Williams or early Bach. Large factories can make great instruments...think Conn at Elkhart .... when skill levels of workers are high and there are talented designers.
There is no simple connection between age and quality with brass instruments.
Old brass instruments become more desirable if they have a sound quality that is considered to be the present ideal. Those who's sound has fallen out of fashion are less desirable, or even not desirable at all.

Chris

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Wed May 27, 2020 5:25 am

I'm sorry but the 2005 88HT I have is hands down a better player than any Elkhart I've tried, especially since the slide is so ridiculously good. There are lots that I simply couldn't or can't try because of the remington leadpipe.

The Edwards 396A plays flat out better than older T350s I've tried, and the Toby Oft model 350 is also superior.

My old king 3BF from the 60s is a great horn. I love it. But I'd love to try it with a new slide.

ArbanRubank · Post by **ArbanRubank** » Wed May 27, 2020 5:27 am

It's a thing. Who wouldn't want to own a confirmed great-playing classic Conn Elkhart in mint condition! Would it actually play better than our brand new state-of-the-art horn? Maybe. Or maybe we might think it does because we believe it has that certain elusive and mystic Ecalibur-like quality. Does the sorcerer's wand hold the magic power, or does it work because the sorcerer believes it does.

timothy42b · Post by **timothy42b** » Wed May 27, 2020 6:13 am

Well, it might be just our perceptions, with a bit of superstition mixed in.

But here's a thought: maybe of a 100 Conns or Kings produced back in the day, by normal variation 5 were total dogs and 5 were superstars, and over the years the good ones were played, maintained and repaired, and have survived, while the dogs and mediocre ones are sitting in closets, thrift shops, and landfills.

FOSSIL · Post by **FOSSIL** » Wed May 27, 2020 6:22 am

Sorry, I didn't make it clear in my previous post. Older classic trombones that are sought after, are sought after because of the sound quality they produce for the most part. My modern Raths are way easier to play than my old Conns and Holtons.
Some people seek out old trombones for their feel, but they are a much smaller group than the sound seeking group.

Chris

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Wed May 27, 2020 6:41 am

braymond21 wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 11:08 pm I don't think it's so much that they're better, but different. With companies that have been around for a long time like Bach, many things change in their manufacturing and design process so there may be things about the older horns that people tend to like more than the modern horns. They're not really better, just different.

I'll be specific. There are some great older Bach bass trombones. Most of the newer ones are garbage due to poor workmanship. So they are really better, not just different.

AwesomeDad · Post by **AwesomeDad** » Wed May 27, 2020 6:53 am

It seems that way across the board the old York tubas are sought after as well as pre war Gibson banjos the argument seems to be materials that were used can’t be replicated today. Now that’s not to say there’s not fine banjos and tubas being made today. I would think it is the same with trombones either in the manufacturing process or metallurgy used back in the day...

JJ

whitbey · Post by **whitbey** » Wed May 27, 2020 7:28 am

Today has yesterday's knowledge, so most top line horns today are top line.

Many of yesterday's horns seem to have a sweet spot of perfect assembly and the metal has had time for the molecules.

Ultimately, a horn and a mouthpiece are tools that work well with much practice. Finding the match of the horn to your needs is a challenge. Results of that search are wild.

My new Edwards horns are incredible!

My old Bach 50 that was built in the 60's has well seasoned metal and was reassembled 40 years ago. It sounds great and plays easy. I have tried new Edwards horns and they are better. Just not better enough to spend money and give up decades of knowing how to play this horn.

So, yes you can find a horn that works from every age, but the new horns do have more known skills.

ArbanRubank · Post by **ArbanRubank** » Wed May 27, 2020 8:10 am

Following the "molecule" line, there are those who believe that a single-owner vintage horn of one - famous - owner is desirable because the molecules of the horn have been "set" in an especially sweet resonance. Maybe they are right! Maybe metal CAN be trained that way.

There is a popular meme: "I'll believe it when I see it". I prefer a more quantum outlook: "I'll see it when I believe it". I believe I have a truly special horn. lol

I wish I had a horn that had THE special sound of a truly great Elkhart or some such other and yet was made of the most modern and light-weight materials. I guess that is the intent of high-end copies of great horns.

bbocaner · Post by **bbocaner** » Wed May 27, 2020 8:18 am

There was a time when you could buy 1950s Elkhart Conn 88Hs for $500. Nobody wanted them because everybody wanted 42Bs with Thayer conversions. Tastes change.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed May 27, 2020 9:02 am

This group is so easy to troll. About once a week someone strolls in and asks a trigger question, and the usual characters all come back with the usual responses. It's like throwing a cat in a dog pen, and just as predictable. Ask any bass trombone mouthpiece question, or anything that pits new against old. People don't know how to separate quality from emotion, or supernatural belief from science.

There are 2 things about old horns:

1) They literally don't make 'em like that any more. If you want a horn that sounds like a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne, you have to get a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne. Why? Because they don't make 'em like that any more.

2) A lot of people like to romanticize stuff because it's old and unavailable (and they've got one).

Personally, I have old and new horns from various makers. There is new stuff that's good. There is old stuff that's bad. This will draw me some hate, I'm sure, but I don't like big Shires horns. They seem a bit sterile. I bought one, but sent it back, because it just didn't have the personality I'm used to feeling in a horn. The Shires MD+. on the other hand, is a really fantastic instrument.

Why is a 100h not a 6h? Why is the Minnick-made 100h worshiped and the Conn 100h reviled?

I don't like old Yamahas. They seem one-dimensional. But I love the 897z, and some of the basses.

I love Olds, the old ones and the later ones. Recording, P24G...

I love selective Elkhart Conns. It's the feel I grew up with, so naturally I'm attracted to that. But there were some UMI/GenII that were equally fantastic players.

I don't like Getzens. I'm still affected by the old reputation of Getzen, and haven't played enough new ones to change that perception. (I'd like to play their 508 pro horn and the smaller single bore bass)

I love the new small M&W horns in a way I wasn't such a big fan of the bigger/heavier older Greenhoes. The medium bore (525) M&W just makes me salivate uncontrollably.

I've got a late Kanstul that drew on an old Conn as inspiration, without any of the annoying quirks of old Conns. I have a feeling that now that Kanstul is defunct, their reputation will only improve and their horns will become more valuable.

The question "why is old better" I think misses the nuance of the situation. You can't reduce brass instruments qualities to just age. There's a lot more involved. Some of it is definitely emotional. Some of it has to do with "the sound in your head" coming from a different era. Maybe you just really don't like horns that are built with volume as the predominant factor, while sterilizing personality of the sound.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Wed May 27, 2020 9:11 am

As far as it refers to the sound of the instrument, perhaps we should altogether dispense with the term "better". That's a matter of taste and opinion. There certainly are differences, but who is to say which sound is better. Better for who? Better in what situation?

ArbanRubank · Post by **ArbanRubank** » Wed May 27, 2020 9:23 am

Elow wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 10:27 pm It seems like for every manufacturer, the older the better. What makes elkhart conns so good? Why are new york bachs so much better? I mean its cool and all to have a low serial number, but does the era of horn really make that much of a difference. I havent heard the same about shires or edwards, maybe because they arent so old. I just dont understand why manufacturers cant produce the same quality horns, if not higher quality. I am just a high school student so please enlighten me

The trick is - try to find one! I wouldn't take anyone else's word or endorsement on a particular horn being a gem - new or old - unless I had exclusive knowledge of that person; what venues they play and how they play them. Even so, if I test-drive it and love it, then it's a gem - for my use. And if I don't like it, I don't really care about it, although I may admire someone else playing it.

norbie2018 · Post by **norbie2018** » Wed May 27, 2020 9:42 am

To quote Fossil: "There is no simple connection between age and quality with brass instruments.
Old brass instruments become more desirable if they have a sound quality that is considered to be the present ideal."

He's right on with that.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Wed May 27, 2020 10:23 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 9:02 am This group is so easy to troll. About once a week someone strolls in and asks a trigger question, and the usual characters all come back with the usual responses. It's like throwing a cat in a dog pen, and just as predictable. Ask any bass trombone mouthpiece question, or anything that pits new against old. People don't know how to separate quality from emotion, or supernatural belief from science.

There are 2 things about old horns:

1) They literally don't make 'em like that any more. If you want a horn that sounds like a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne, you have to get a 48h/6h/ Recording/Williams/Vocabell/Stratodyne. Why? Because they don't make 'em like that any more.

2) A lot of people like to romanticize stuff because it's old and unavailable (and they've got one).

Personally, I have old and new horns from various makers. There is new stuff that's good. There is old stuff that's bad. This will draw me some hate, I'm sure, but I don't like big Shires horns. They seem a bit sterile. I bought one, but sent it back, because it just didn't have the personality I'm used to feeling in a horn. The Shires MD+. on the other hand, is a really fantastic instrument.

Why is a 100h not a 6h? Why is the Minnick-made 100h worshiped and the Conn 100h reviled?

I don't like old Yamahas. They seem one-dimensional. But I love the 897z, and some of the basses.

I love Olds, the old ones and the later ones. Recording, P24G...

I love selective Elkhart Conns. It's the feel I grew up with, so naturally I'm attracted to that. But there were some UMI/GenII that were equally fantastic players.

I don't like Getzens. I'm still affected by the old reputation of Getzen, and haven't played enough new ones to change that perception. (I'd like to play their 508 pro horn and the smaller single bore bass)

I love the new small M&W horns in a way I wasn't such a big fan of the bigger/heavier older Greenhoes. The medium bore (525) M&W just makes me salivate uncontrollably.

I've got a late Kanstul that drew on an old Conn as inspiration, without any of the annoying quirks of old Conns. I have a feeling that now that Kanstul is defunct, their reputation will only improve and their horns will become more valuable.

The question "why is old better" I think misses the nuance of the situation. You can't reduce brass instruments qualities to just age. There's a lot more involved. Some of it is definitely emotional. Some of it has to do with "the sound in your head" coming from a different era. Maybe you just really don't like horns that are built with volume as the predominant factor, while sterilizing personality of the sound.

Trolling? If one is a member here and contributes that is trolling? I agree with a lot of what you state. The original question was very broad and, yes, will solicit some the normal dumb sounding answers. While all of my instruments are older compared to some they have to have certain qualities: 1. Easy to hold. 2. I have to be able to achieve the "sound in MY HEAD" that I can live with and that fits into what I do. 3. Has to function at a very high level(slides/valves/etc). So yes I could start a thread stating why older is better for ME in most cases. And nothing anyone here could say would change my mind.

timothy42b · Post by **timothy42b** » Wed May 27, 2020 11:32 am

When we compare old to new, we are probably comparing an exceptional old one we've run into with an average new one.

whitbey · Post by **whitbey** » Wed May 27, 2020 12:02 pm

About age and molecule alignment.
Impossible to judge age change as my playing has changed more.
I have an Edwards brass bell that was cryogenicly frozen. That is supposed to mimic the same effect as age. Got a chance to play the same bell that was stock. I can tell you there is an improvement but it is small. Removing the lacquer from the bell is the same change I think. So I would think age is about the same.
The bell I have was an even trade of the old board of a bell I did not like. I did not care about the freezing and would not ever do it. But a different bell was better then the old bell.

ZacharyThornton · Post by **ZacharyThornton** » Wed May 27, 2020 12:05 pm

They aren’t.

Lastbone · Post by **Lastbone** » Wed May 27, 2020 12:14 pm

I expect that earlier horns are better because they were the NEW ones when we were young. I still think of my Conn 73 as the coolest, most advanced horn ever built.

Post by **Neo Bri** » Wed May 27, 2020 12:29 pm

bbocaner wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 8:18 am There was a time when you could buy 1950s Elkhart Conn 88Hs for $500. Nobody wanted them because everybody wanted 42Bs with Thayer conversions. Tastes change.

Good point. And sometimes group-think creates fickle trends.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Wed May 27, 2020 2:42 pm

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 12:05 pm They aren’t.

You say that: to you they're not. To me some are.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed May 27, 2020 2:58 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 2:42 pm
ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 12:05 pm They aren’t.
You say that: to you they're not. To me some are.

I think it's the blanket statement that's wrong, not that some older horns are great. Every Elkhart Conn is not better than every modern Conn. Not every old Bach is better than a modern one.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Wed May 27, 2020 3:11 pm

Neo Bri wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 12:29 pm
bbocaner wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 8:18 am There was a time when you could buy 1950s Elkhart Conn 88Hs for $500. Nobody wanted them because everybody wanted 42Bs with Thayer conversions. Tastes change.
Good point. And sometimes group-think creates fickle trends.

Ironically with current fads stock rotor and straight Bach 42 and 42B's are now in the bargain bin. With all the fancy valves out there you can pick up a amazing vintage Corp. horn for pennies compared to a brand new Bach or custom horn.

I wouldn't trade or sell that Corp. 42 I get from you for anything!

stewbones43 · Post by **stewbones43** » Wed May 27, 2020 3:22 pm

In 50 years time, will we be saying wonderful things about the trombones we are knocking today?

I thought the old ones were better to play because they had had all the duff notes blown out of them over the years!

Cheers

Stewbones43

bigbandbone · Post by **bigbandbone** » Wed May 27, 2020 3:39 pm

I would love to buy a "new" horn. But nobody makes what I want! A single rotor bass that can be pulled to E with an extra long slide for low B's without lipping.
My 72H is wearing out but I don't know where to look!

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed May 27, 2020 4:38 pm

When I was doing the mouthpiece materials comparison Benn Hansson sent me 7 pieces of tubing from 2 different trombones: one new and one old. He didn't tell me which was which. And my analysis didn't tell me either. Both were identical within the limits of my X-ray Fluorescence Meter.

imsevimse · Post by **imsevimse** » Wed May 27, 2020 4:48 pm

The are not better.

When a manufacturer has got a good reputation and has to do changes because of businessreasons due to competition or other economical reasons then they might move their factory. They then loose all experienced workers. A group of new workers are hired but they are not as skilled and need time to learn. This causes a drop in quality The quality will be better again as the new workers learn and after a few years it will be as good as before or better. The problem is reputation has been hurt because they who had high expectations and was dissapointed told all their friends not to buy that particular brand. The reputation does not heal as fast as quality.

Many brands have had to do changes like this and that's why there are certain productionyears were horns are less valuable and are considered to be bad. The opposite is when the factory is old and the workers experienced. The experienced workers do better. Then handmade horns are usually better compared to horns made more with machines. People who know how to do an instrument by hand and has done so for many years are more skilled compared to them who just started and need machines.

/Tom

bigbandbone · Post by **bigbandbone** » Wed May 27, 2020 5:03 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 4:38 pm When I was doing the mouthpiece materials comparison Benn Hansson sent me 7 pieces of tubing from 2 different trombones: one new and one old. He didn't tell me which was which. And my analysis didn't tell me either. Both were identical within the limits of my X-ray Fluorescence Meter.

I worked at King/UMI/Conn Selmer twice. Once around 1980'sh for about a year and then again from 1996 through November 2001. Back in the 1980's there was a metallurgist on staff who tested all brass coming through the doors. If it wasn't the specified alloy it was rejected. Fast forward to 1996 and that position was eliminate! Whatever was delivered was used. I can remember a 6 month stretch where the Sousa valve casing were peeling in layers like an onion! I truly hope things have changed since then...

Post by **Matt K** » Wed May 27, 2020 6:58 pm

Why do people drive old cars? They like them.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Wed May 27, 2020 7:03 pm

It's like Highlander.

An older horn has absorbed the "essence" of its previous owners, its experiences, its life. A newer horn hasn't been around that long so all that horn has done is absorb the "essence " of the workers that have built the instrument at the slave wage most unskilled workers get paid.

I played one of the prototype 88Hs made for Ralph Sauer. It was pure ecstasy. I was able to channel Ralphs "essence" as i played it, transforming me from a mediocre player to a WAY better mediocre player.

Thats why older horns are better.

There can be only one!

SaigonSlide · Post by **SaigonSlide** » Wed May 27, 2020 7:50 pm

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 7:03 pm It's like Highlander.

An older horn has absorbed the "essence" of its previous owners, its experiences, its life. A newer horn hasn't been around that long so all that horn has done is absorb the "essence " of the slack jawed hick or slave labor chinaman that have built the instrument at the slave wage most unskilled workers get paid.

I played one of the prototype 88Hs made for Ralph Sauer. It was pure ecstasy. I was able to channel Ralphs "essence" as i played it, transforming me from a mediocre player to a WAY better mediocre player.

Thats why older horns are better.

There can be only one!

I really hope there aren’t any members that consider themselves hicks or are Asian. Did you read your comment before posting??

On another note, I really don’t buy this magical thinking. Anyone know of any blind play tests? I imagine it would be difficult to design, but if you could I bet some answers would become clear. My guess is that a really large part of this is placebo, and hinges mainly on our own beliefs.

If you buy a pair of vintage Nike waffle racers, are you going to somehow channel Steve Prefontaines essence and run faster? No. But you’re going to have a vintage pair of Nike waffle racers.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Wed May 27, 2020 8:26 pm

Maybe the mods might modify Thrawn22’s post?

fwbassbone · Post by **fwbassbone** » Wed May 27, 2020 9:15 pm

Burgerbob's two replies above. Pretty much says it all.

Post by **Doug Elliott** » Wed May 27, 2020 9:42 pm

One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned is that in the early years of US instrument manufacturing, a large number of the workers had been trained in Europe where there was a long history of high quality instrument design and manufacture. They knew how to spin good bells, draw good tubing, what parts needed to be hardened or annealed, placement of braces, stress relief, etc. As those workers retired, died, or the companies were bought out and moved, those people were replaced by new workers who could make and assemble parts but really didn't know the secrets. The same thing is still happening in more recent years - the consolidation of companies, the move to cheaper labor overseas. Newer technology can definitely result in better efficiency and consistency, but manufacturing techniques and processes DO make a difference and sometimes old knowledge is lost. Speedy production doesn't leave time for the details that went into some of the older horns.

Thrawn22 · Post by **Thrawn22** » Wed May 27, 2020 10:07 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 9:42 pm One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned is that in the early years of US instrument manufacturing, a large number of the workers had been trained in Europe where there was a long history of high quality instrument design and manufacture. They knew how to spin good bells, draw good tubing, what parts needed to be hardened or annealed, placement of braces, stress relief, etc. As those workers retired, died, or the companies were bought out and moved, those people were replaced by new workers who could make and assemble parts but really didn't know the secrets. The same thing is still happening in more recent years - the consolidation of companies, the move to cheaper labor overseas. Newer technology can definitely result in better efficiency and consistency, but manufacturing techniques and processes DO make a difference and sometimes old knowledge is lost. Speedy production doesn't leave time for the details that went into some of the older horns.

My point precisely.

FOSSIL · Post by **FOSSIL** » Thu May 28, 2020 1:54 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 9:42 pm One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned is that in the early years of US instrument manufacturing, a large number of the workers had been trained in Europe where there was a long history of high quality instrument design and manufacture. They knew how to spin good bells, draw good tubing, what parts needed to be hardened or annealed, placement of braces, stress relief, etc. As those workers retired, died, or the companies were bought out and moved, those people were replaced by new workers who could make and assemble parts but really didn't know the secrets. The same thing is still happening in more recent years - the consolidation of companies, the move to cheaper labor overseas. Newer technology can definitely result in better efficiency and consistency, but manufacturing techniques and processes DO make a difference and sometimes old knowledge is lost. Speedy production doesn't leave time for the details that went into some of the older horns.

If you look at the freely available Conn film of manufacturing at the factory, it is stressed that many families worked for Conn and many positions were handed down from father to son, so skills and techniques were preserved through the years. Indeed, to protect the passing down of jobs, I bet workers kept techniques... tricks of the trade...very much to themselves.
In Germany manufacture has been traditionally small, often a single craftsman and training long and intense ,even so, many beautiful German instruments have serious playing flaws that are just accepted as normal.... a lack of design experience many be to blame.
The combination of craftsmanship and scale of production has been a rare marriage in brass manufacture.... and the products of that marriage are prized.

Chris

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Thu May 28, 2020 2:34 am

The wizards who knew the arcane European arts must've been resurrected in Elkhorn, WI. That team knows how to spin bells and what parts need to be tempered etc, as well.

FOSSIL · Post by **FOSSIL** » Thu May 28, 2020 3:14 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 2:34 am The wizards who knew the arcane European arts must've been resurrected in Elkhorn, WI. That team knows how to spin bells and what parts need to be tempered etc, as well.

Elkhorn WI..... Holton moved there in 1920... Getzen are pretty long established there now and a smaller concern than many.... no surprise that good things come out of Elkhorn. Shame that Holton went. I've not played a usable Holton made in Elkhart, but the Conns now made in Elkhart seem very good indeed...odd.

Chris

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Thu May 28, 2020 5:57 am

fwbassbone wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 9:15 pm Burgerbob's two replies above. Pretty much says it all.

His first post is as useless as thinking all old is better/worse than all new. Second post is what makes sense.

bigbandbone · Post by **bigbandbone** » Thu May 28, 2020 7:02 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 9:42 pm One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned is that in the early years of US instrument manufacturing, a large number of the workers had been trained in Europe where there was a long history of high quality instrument design and manufacture. They knew how to spin good bells, draw good tubing, what parts needed to be hardened or annealed, placement of braces, stress relief, etc. As those workers retired, died, or the companies were bought out and moved, those people were replaced by new workers who could make and assemble parts but really didn't know the secrets. The same thing is still happening in more recent years - the consolidation of companies, the move to cheaper labor overseas. Newer technology can definitely result in better efficiency and consistency, but manufacturing techniques and processes DO make a difference and sometimes old knowledge is lost. Speedy production doesn't leave time for the details that went into some of the older horns.

This is right on the money. At King as the old guys retired the young people who replaced them didn't care about quality. They only cared about making as much money as they could on piece work. And management didn't seem to care.
The first time I worked in the King Eastlake factory in the 80's the catch phrase was "King Craftsmanship". The second time I worked there in the late 90's that catch phrase had morphed to "King Crapsmanship"!

biggiesmalls · Post by **biggiesmalls** » Thu May 28, 2020 7:32 am

DJ Kennedy once asked me to play and rank six different Elkhart 88H's he had lined up on stands in his studio. After I played all six horns multiple times, I gave my opinions: one dog, two mediocre horns, two really good horns, and one that was exceptional. DJ then told me that two different pros who had recently visited his studio had played the same horns, and had ranked them more or less the same way.

There are dogs and gems in every era. To make an all-too-obvious point: you need to play a horn to know anything at all about the way a horn actually plays, regardless of who made it or what era it was made in.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Thu May 28, 2020 8:02 am

FOSSIL wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 2:09 amLarge factories can make great instruments...think Conn at Elkhart .... when skill levels of workers are high and there are talented designers.

And when management fosters an environment where those skilled workers aren't hamstrung by production quotas and those talented designers are allowed to focus on making better instruments rather than cheaper instruments.

FOSSIL · Post by **FOSSIL** » Thu May 28, 2020 8:10 am

biggiesmalls wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 7:32 am DJ Kennedy once asked me to play and rank six different Elkhart 88H's he had lined up on stands in his studio. After I played all six horns multiple times, I gave my opinions: one dog, two mediocre horns, two really good horns, and one that was exceptional. DJ then told me that two different pros who had recently visited his studio had played the same horns, and had ranked them more or less the same way.

There are dogs and gems in every era. To make an all-too-obvious point: you need to play a horn to know anything at all about the way a horn actually plays, regardless of who made it or what era it was made in.

Here, old Conns are bought not for how they blow but how they sound... particularly in large concert halls in professional settings. Put simply, they still do the job really well....in the right hands. Old Conns vary hugely and sometimes the hardest to blow sound the best... I have had a couple of 62Hs that were exhausting to play but sounded great. Modern trombones are much more likely to be easier to play... My Raths walk all over the Conns in that respect...and sound good...just not like old Conns...

Chris