Bell that overblows

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:19 pm

What can be done about a bell that gets blatty too easily?...

Unsoldered, fairly thin, red brass bell. Easy to color, sounds great. But gets blatting as soon as you crank up the volume. What have you all had success doing to help with this problem? Solder the bead? Put duct tape on the bell? Replace the bell? Sell the horn and move on?

Thanks in advance!

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:26 pm

I don't know about soldering the bell. I'd imagine that would make it project more. Shires website backs that up as far as I can tell:

Quote1, 5, or 7: soldered beadfavors pointed articulations and centered sound.
2 or 8: unsoldered beadfavors broad, somewhat diffuse sound and softer, more covered articulations

Whats the rest of the horn? In my experience, you're better off changing things closer to the mouth to a certain extent. The wrong combination of mouthpiece and leadpipe can make, for example, a bell that would sound great with some other combination be really quite edgy. Or the opposite. I have a Shires S1YM small bore horn. For a long time I was too cheap to get a Shires leadpipe for it so I was using a Yamaha "3" from one of their 600 series. It was a very long pipe and I believe the taper must have been pretty gradual. It made the horn sound pretty reasonable with my Elliott "A" cup even. I replaced that with a 2.5N pipe and now I'm back to my "C" cup on it because the "A" makes it brighter than I want. (The nickel material probably assists in that regard as well).

ttf_HouBassTrombone · Post by **ttf_HouBassTrombone** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:05 pm

Find a way either through equipment or playing changes to make the volume less about the amount of air or power and more about focus.
I can sound like a laser with my same horn but all nickel slide and lightweight mouthpiece. I get the volume needed for commercial work that way.
If I want to sound like a hammer or wall of sound then I use my regular slide and regular weight mouthpiece.
Or try a new bell

ttf_bigbassbone1 · Post by **ttf_bigbassbone1** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:30 pm

What makes you so sure it is the gear you are playing? Have you tried playing other stuff the same way with better results?

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:19 pm

Quote from: greenbean on Apr 08, 2017, 06:19PMWhat can be done about a bell that gets blatty too easily?...

Unsoldered, fairly thin, red brass bell. Easy to color, sounds great. But gets blatting as soon as you crank up the volume. What have you all had success doing to help with this problem? Solder the bead? Put duct tape on the bell? Replace the bell? Sell the horn and move on?

Thanks in advance!
Maybe there is no one trombone for all circumstances. Use it where you don't need to peel paint off the walls. By the sounds of it, it is a responsive and controllable instrument ... unless your trying to get Teutonic. Use it for ballads or light classical or small ensemble jazz with amplification. Or, if an easy to color horn that sounds great is really obnoxious to you, pass it on to someone that can use it.

Not all music requires ff+ dynamics. Maybe you've been playing a Bach too long ... could be your approach that has been molded by that big, mean NY sound.

But you do own a King. Is that the one you are talking about?

ttf_JBledsoe · Post by **ttf_JBledsoe** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:30 pm

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Apr 08, 2017, 07:30PMWhat makes you so sure it is the gear you are playing? Have you tried playing other stuff the same way with better results?

I played a Benge 190 through high school and my first year of college, and back then I swore that the horn was too brittle at loud dynamics. After 12 years of more practice, that horn isn't bright or brittle at all!

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:31 pm

Quote from: BillO on Apr 08, 2017, 08:19PM...

But you do own a King. Is that the one you are talking about?

King bell rims are soldered and are either yellow or gold brass (or sterling silver). I don't know of a red brass King.

Sounds like he has a Conn.

Lindberg developed the "Sonic Balancer" (that collar that straps around the bell throat) for similar problems. Maybe you need to tie a sock around the bell throat.

Generally thicker bells are less responsive but handle volume better. There's no free lunch.

ttf_paulyg · Post by **ttf_paulyg** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:46 pm

I thought my 88H got blatty at fff, but then I got better.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:08 pm

It is a Yamaha YBL-620G. The bell is actually gold brass; I said red brass above.

Yeah, maybe I just need to learn how to play it differently. And I own or have tried several other basses that don't do it. But it makes sense that I need to play it the way it wants to be played. I will work on it.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:13 am

Quote from: greenbean on Apr 08, 2017, 11:08PMIt is a Yamaha YBL-620G. The bell is actually gold brass; I said red brass above.

Yeah, maybe I just need to learn how to play it differently. And I own or have tried several other basses that don't do it. But it makes sense that I need to play it the way it wants to be played. I will work on it.

You got it ! I had a student with one of those... he sounded great, but he thought it was too bright at loud volumes... he wasn't.... but he changed to a horn that he feels better about... took him almost a year to get the sound back, but now we are both happy ! See how you feel with it.

Chris Stearn

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:39 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 08, 2017, 08:31PMKing bell rims are soldered
Really? Maybe my 4B missed a step in the manufacturing process. I can find no evidence of solder in or around the bead. I can even lift it up a bit with my thumbnail. Maybe this is why it seems to play so much differently than others say of their King 4Bs.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:15 am

FWIW, I had the same "problem" with a Xeno tenor (882O). I sold it and tried a number of horns before finally settling now for a few years on a Shires setup 2RVET7. I also switched from 5ish sized pieces to Doug's XT104N rim. Fast forward to about two years ago, I had to play an 882O for some gigs while my current horn was being built. On a rim that was appropriately suited to my physiology, I no longer was excessively bright but I did find the horn to be quite uncomfortable for me to play. So is it possible that its all the horn? Sure. Is it possible that its a great horn for you and its all on your end? Sure. But I suspect its somewhere in the middle but with stock horns like that you are more-or-less required to treat it as though its entirely the latter. Of course the downside to modular setups is that its easy to assume its entirely the former when it may not be the case && doubly that no amount of changing equipment will compensate for not playing correctly whereas putting in time on a horn will generally improve your ability to play.

I will say that I could not use the mouthpiece I use now on the Xeno when I played it. I used the same rim but a shallower cup with a more open backbore on my piece (I used an XTE/E9 on it vs my normal XTG/G8). It continually surprises me how something so subtle as the differences in Doug's backbores makes such a huge difference. Definitely worth a shot in my opinion, and really not much more expensive I would imagine than even doing something reversible like soldering your bell bead. Its a lot easier to return one of his pieces than have mods done! You can trust me on that one

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:20 am

Quote from: JBledsoe on Apr 08, 2017, 08:30PMI played a Benge 190 through high school and my first year of college, and back then I swore that the horn was too brittle at loud dynamics. After 12 years of more practice, that horn isn't bright or brittle at all!

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:04 am

Sounds like an 88H style issue. I used to use a lindberg resistance balancer to help out if I was playing really loud. They aren't made any longer.

I make bell throat wraps that might be just what you need -- no duct tape required. Rust or deep blue color. I can make you one for a small fee.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:16 am

replace the flare ///cant fix thin

Quote from: greenbean on Apr 08, 2017, 06:19PMWhat can be done about a bell that gets blatty too easily?...

Unsoldered, fairly thin, red brass bell. Easy to color, sounds great. But gets blatting as soon as you crank up the volume. What have you all had success doing to help with this problem? Solder the bead? Put duct tape on the bell? Replace the bell? Sell the horn and move on?

Thanks in advance!

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:00 am

I don't think the 620G bell is that thin of a bell, comparatively speaking. What type of mouthpiece are you using with it? Is it more in the high range, or the lower range?

I play a 612RII, which has a 10 inch bell, red brass, unsoldered rim. It can get blatty depending on how I approach the louder notes. More articulation gets more edge. Slower air stream with more support allows me to get more volume without the edge. It's also a fairly open horn, so with a more open mouthpiece you can overblow it a bit.

ttf_Bach42T · Post by **ttf_Bach42T** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:02 am

My Thayer valve occasionally exhibits a blatty-like tone when engaged at low volumes. Not sure why.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:19 pm

king 2b plus early versions ==extremely light ==
great microphone horns
jim pugh full custom 2b+ gold plated no slide crook bumper
unplayed beautiful -unplayable past an mf --DONT GO THERE
=============================
hard to push past mf
=================================
had a thinny 78 --very nasty ---too thin --brassy bbbbbbbbbbbbrassy
also thinny 42 just ugly past a certain volume
===========
then the courtois jazz couldnt get over 55 ????????
ran out of gas
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oh yes you can lay back ease off the pedal grab throat with your hand etc
use a bass slide
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go ahead suffer with it

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:03 pm

Update...

First, thanks to you all for your thoughts. I decided to change the bell since I don't have this problem with other horns. And might want to play beyond mf once in a while!

I picked up a Shires yellow brass HW bell. Properly mounted by Dick Akright. Plays beautifully. Sounds great at all dynamics!

(I am using a Hammond 19BL, by the way.)

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:03 pm

Update...

First, thanks to you all for your thoughts. I decided to change the bell since I don't have this problem with other horns. And might want to play beyond mf once in a while!

I picked up a Shires yellow brass HW bell. Properly mounted by Dick Akright. Plays beautifully. Sounds great at all dynamics!

(I am using a Hammond 19BL, by the way.)