Page 1 of 2
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:25 am
by ttf_crazytrombonist505
Hey everyone
So, I just got a Benge 290 bass trombone on eBay. It is a great horn. The only "problem" that I notice is that I'm constantly having to adjust my left-hand grip on the horn while playing. I'm not sure what causes this. I'm guessing it's because of the weight of the horn, etc. So, I guess my question is would some sort of left hand support system fix this problem, and if so, which one do you guys think would work the best.
(Btw sorry if there is already a thread that addresses this issue, but I couldn't find anything)
Any suggestions would be most welcome.
Thanks in advance,
Zach
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:40 am
by ttf_hyperbolica
There's a Get-a-grip, which I like. Neotech and Yamaha. These are all "soft" and removable, and probably the cheapest. Then there are things like Greenhoe, Shires, Edwards which can either be soldered on or clamped on. These all go between thumb and forefinger. And of course the Rath which is huge and heavy and rests on the back of your hand.
There are different measures of "best". You might like the Neotech best.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:40 am
by ttf_BGuttman
You missed "Rest Bar", "Bullet Brace", "Ax Handle", "Neotech Grip", "Yamaha Strap", "Get a Grip" and Tendinitis.
You also should look at Doug Yeo's site for an explanation of his grip (which is what I use). This is not an accessory, but a way to hold the instrument that reduces the need for one of the ones I listed above.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:41 am
by ttf_Gabe Langfur
I use the simple, inexpensive strap from Leather Specialties. For me this is the best option to keep my hand and wrist in the position I need, with the least impact on the way the horn plays. I also have a Shires thumb rest bar on, but that's secondary.
The Get-A-Grip from Newell Sheridan is also excellent and simple, but I couldn't find a position with it that kept my wrist straight.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:49 am
by ttf_Geezerhorn
Instead of all those gizmos, I try to keep my left elbow from "flying" when supporting a heavier horn. It's a whole lot less strain on my shoulder joint if I keep the left elbow tucked in a bit.
...just a thought...
...Geezer
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:56 am
by ttf_hyperbolica
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 14, 2017, 07:49AMInstead of all those gizmos, I try to keep my left elbow from "flying" when supporting a heavier horn. It's a whole lot less strain on my shoulder joint if I keep the left elbow tucked in a bit.
...just a thought...
...Geezer
The elbow isn't the problem. The problem is that you are essentially supporting the weight of the horn with your left pinky when you have a 2 valve bass. Yeo gets the heel of his hand under the horn which solves the problem if you can hold your wrist that way. A 'gizmo' enables you to hold the horn without any fingers at all.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:17 am
by ttf_Gabe Langfur
Quote from: hyperbolica on Jan 14, 2017, 08:56AMThe elbow isn't the problem. The problem is that you are essentially supporting the weight of the horn with your left pinky when you have a 2 valve bass. Yeo gets the heel of his hand under the horn which solves the problem if you can hold your wrist that way. A 'gizmo' enables you to hold the horn without any fingers at all.
Exactly. I eventually developed trigger finger in the last two fingers of my left hand and was forced to find a way to hold the instrument without gripping at all. For me, the strap is the best way to do that.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:36 am
by ttf_crazytrombonist505
Thanks for all the suggestions
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:44 am
by ttf_58mark
I've used a neotech on two basses, but on one I had to make an adjustment on the 2nd valve trigger because the neotech interfered with it.
I really like them, I have huge hands and it also keeps the slide from pinching the side of my hand
For $21 through Amazon, it's worth a shot
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 9:54 am
by ttf_crazytrombonist505
Thanks Mark! After watching a video about the Neotech and from feedback here, I think I'm going to give it a try.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:11 am
by ttf_bulleidpacific
For situations where you want to wrap your thumb around a non-existent bell brace to stabilise the horn, I can recommend the Ax Handle. I have one on a Holton TR181 and another on a Conn 88HTO - in both cases I found it transformed the ergonomics of the instruments. I gather the Edwards Bullet Brace is similar but more expensive and I haven't used it.......
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:25 am
by ttf_kbiggs
The ergobone hasn't been mentioned yet.
www.ergobone.com
Lots of write-ups here on TTF about different devices. Read about them. I've tried a lot of different ones: ergobone, neotech, Sheridan's get-a-grip, Edwards bullet brace, the leather strap Gabe mentioned (if it's the same thing, it's sometimes called a Klebsch strap), maybe a few others... currently using Sheridan's get-a-grip. Try some, buy some, fee fi fo fum...
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:28 am
by ttf_Terraplane8Bob
Zach : Congratulations on the new Benge ! It's a great horn which I always considered to be the Benge iteration of the King 8B. To the subject at hand [no pun intended] : Left hand support options. I had a career-ending problem with my left hand and was only able to play again after discovering the ErgoBone support. It's not everyone's "Cup O' Tea", but for me it was a Godsend ! It definitely requires an adjustment period, but once you've become accustomed to it I find that it helps promote an overall relaxation that results from the fact that the instrument is being totally supported from both hands, not just the load-bearing left hand. I replaced the "harness" that comes with the ErgoBone with a Neotech saxophone support harness which is much more comfortable. I do use a Neotech grip with my Elkhart 88H which works quite well with the lighter weight of that horn compared to my double-trigger basses. The basses absolutely require the ErgoBone --- for me. As with all these personal choices --- mileage will vary. Good luck in your quest ! Cheers !! Bob
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:13 am
by ttf_savio
Is it possible to make one our self? Somebody tried it?
Leif
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:41 am
by ttf_Gabe Langfur
Quote from: savio on Jan 14, 2017, 11:13AMIs it possible to make one our self? Somebody tried it?
Leif
There used to be instructions online somewhere to make a thumb rest from parts you can find easily at a hardware store.
It wouldn't be that difficult to make a strap like what I use if you have some sewing skills. It's really just a length of material with a small loop and a larger adjustable loop.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:44 am
by ttf_BGuttman
Quote from: savio on Jan 14, 2017, 11:13AMIs it possible to make one our self? Somebody tried it?
Leif
Alan Charlesworth had published something he did using a U-bolt and some tie wraps. I don't have a picture to show. Just imagine the U-bolt tie wrapped to the bell brace and the slide receiver.
Tim Richardson showed something he made using some tie wraps and a length of tubing. There may be a picture somewhere.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:55 am
by ttf_Matt K
I'm quite partial to the Edwards thumbrest that I have for my split configuration (thumb + ring finger). If I were buying new, I'd probably get the Ax Handle from Instrumentinnovations.com.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 12:17 pm
by ttf_jmtheob
Ergobone changed my life. It's expensive and hard to learn to use, but once I got the hang of it, no more tendonitis in my left elbow. I have used the Neotech as well, and it's OK but I found it a challenge to get on and off quickly.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:02 pm
by ttf_ronnies
I use a strap made from a cut down old camera strap. It's a simple loop that goes round the slide tenon before I attach the bell then mey left hand goes into the loop. This takes the strain of the left pinky and third finger. Once I had the loop the right size I cut off the excess strap and wrapped the whole thing in tape to make it more comfy.
Ronnie
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:58 pm
by ttf_mr.deacon
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 14, 2017, 07:41AMI use the simple, inexpensive strap from Leather Specialties. For me this is the best option to keep my hand and wrist in the position I need, with the least impact on the way the horn plays. I also have a Shires thumb rest bar on, but that's secondary.
The Get-A-Grip from Newell Sheridan is also excellent and simple, but I couldn't find a position with it that kept my wrist straight.
Gabe you play on a horn with TruBores right? I found the ergos on the TruBores to be horrible, I tried a bunch of grips and gizmos but nothing really helped.
I ending up having my tech make me a custom F attachment lever which changed where the F attachment trigger sits in my hand. The trigger now sits in a higher place similar to most rotor horns. It's super comfortable now and I don't really have any need for grip.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:55 pm
by ttf_Gabe Langfur
Quote from: mr.deacon on Jan 14, 2017, 01:58PMGabe you play on a horn with TruBores right?
I do, but I had my F lever bent to where I like it.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:42 pm
by ttf_Dan Hine
Quote from: hyperbolica on Jan 14, 2017, 08:56AMThe elbow isn't the problem. The problem is that you are essentially supporting the weight of the horn with your left pinky when you have a 2 valve bass. Yeo gets the heel of his hand under the horn which solves the problem if you can hold your wrist that way. A 'gizmo' enables you to hold the horn without any fingers at all.
For some people, the elbow IS the problem. Not that it's weak, but that by pointing it more out than down you are robbing yourself of a lot of structural support. Everyone's body is a little different so what I'm about to say may not really apply to everyone, but when I hold my instrument the heel of my hand, the meaty party near the thumb, creates a shelf of sorts. That shelf follows straight down to my wrist (not at a weird angle like you say Mr. Yeo's is), which follows straight down to my elbow which, along side my body, provides all the support I need. It's very similar to professional shooters in the offhand position, or kettlebell sport athletes in the rack position.
You may very well need a brace but I think investigating how you hold the instrument is a worthwhile endeavor.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:15 am
by ttf_SilverBone
The Ax Handle works best for me. Mike Olsen works hard to make sure you are satisfied with it - he has lots of options to make it fit better.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:33 am
by ttf_Geezerhorn
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Jan 14, 2017, 07:49AMInstead of all those gizmos, I try to keep my left elbow from "flying" when supporting a heavier horn. It's a whole lot less strain on my shoulder joint if I keep the left elbow tucked in a bit.
Quote from: hyperbolica on Jan 14, 2017, 08:56AMThe elbow isn't the problem. The problem is that you are essentially supporting the weight of the horn with your left pinky when you have a 2 valve bass. Yeo gets the heel of his hand under the horn which solves the problem if you can hold your wrist that way. A 'gizmo' enables you to hold the horn without any fingers at all.
Quote from: Dan Hine on Jan 14, 2017, 05:42PMFor some people, the elbow IS the problem. Not that it's weak, but that by pointing it more out than down you are robbing yourself of a lot of structural support. Everyone's body is a little different so what I'm about to say may not really apply to everyone, but when I hold my instrument the heel of my hand, the meaty party near the thumb, creates a shelf of sorts. That shelf follows straight down to my wrist (not at a weird angle like you say Mr. Yeo's is), which follows straight down to my elbow which, along side my body, provides all the support I need. It's very similar to professional shooters in the offhand position, or kettlebell sport athletes in the rack position.
You may very well need a brace but I think investigating how you hold the instrument is a worthwhile endeavor.
Everything is inter-connected correctly in a comfortable set-up.
...Geezer
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:50 am
by ttf_sabutin
These threads come up regularly. I don't remember reading what I am about to say on any of them, but here goes.
The best left hand support option for bass trombone? For any trombone, actually?
Strength training.
Really.
Light weights, high reps. Daily for as long as it takes. Not to the point of exhaustion, especially if you are going to be playing later. Include hand exercises...the spring grip kind. Also flexibility exercises.
Look into it.
It has helped me in the past. Any time I lay off of the bass trombone for a number of weeks or more I have trouble with my hand when I am doing repeated trigger exercises. The spring thing really works well on this...as usual, for me. Your results may vary.
Later...
S.
P.S. I am neither super-strong nor super-weak...just an average Joe in terms of musculature.
P.P.S. I only do this with the left hand and arm. I want my right arm to be more whip-like. Too much muscle messes with my slide technique.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:32 pm
by ttf_anonymous
Hello Everyone
I made the bullet brace for Edwards for many years . I made literally thousands of them in the past . That is one of the reasons I designed the Ax Handle . The Ax Handle solves the slipping issues that the bullet brace had . I now include with the Ax Handle an S brace rod with Delrin cover just like the "one" that you get with the bullet brace . I also include the C brace rod with delrin cover that that you can get . ( one or the other with the bullet brace) And I include a long S brace rod with delrin cover with each Axe handle that I sell . I also provide a bondus Allen screwdriver for mounting. I also give you five different pads to choose from two of witch are the same diameter and material that you get with the bullet brace. I have made a small C brace rod with cover for people with small hands at no charge. I have made a long C brace rod with cover for special applications at no charge. I have worked with my customers to get their complete satisfaction or I give their money back. To this day I have had to refund only one person. I did it gladly and I would bet any money that he will be a customer on one of my other products in the future. So you see there is no risk to you to try my Ax Handle. And at almost half the price with three times the options. There is no reason at all not to try it. Many of my customers order just the clamp for their second horn and use the extra brace rods to make anouther set up. Just the clamp sells for forty dollars. So you theoretically could have two set up Ax Handles for sixty dollars each.
Thanks to all my customers
Mike Olsen
www.instrumentinnovations.com
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:32 am
by ttf_2olbones
At 76 I seem to be falling a lot, don't know why yet (MRI this Friday). Last time managed to break both shoulders, the left one a week before last Christmas, followed by the right on Christmas eve, and yes I was completely sober both times. It took me quite a while and a lot of therapy (whilst also addressing a problem with Osteoporosis I didn't know I had) I started to play again in July with an Ergo bone. I had used the Rath hand grip successfully before I fell and eventually managed to dispense with the Ergo bone, which I need to sell, and go again with the Rath grip. All I can say is that "it works"! It takes the almost the full weight of the horn on the back of the hand.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:25 am
by ttf_Socal77
I give the Ax Handle
. My issue was not supporting the weight of my Bachs, but allowing my fingers to be in a position at all times to operate both triggers. I tried a Neogrip and found that it supported the weight really well I could not get the plastic piece positioned ideally. If the plastic piece that goes in the palm was moldable or if I trimmed it I may have been able to make it work.
I use an Ax Handle on both my Bachs. The infinite adjustability makes to a great option. The only issue I had was one of the rods seemed to want to rotate and required that I re-torque the setscrews. A drop of liquid duct tape (Loctite) and everything works great.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:45 am
by ttf_SilverBone
+1 for the Ax Handle and for Mike Olsen as a more-than-reliable resource for proper fitting.
I have two Ax Handles and one Bullet Brace. I like the Ax Handle much more.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:31 am
by ttf_Pieter
The Ergobone allowed me to play bass trombone two weeks after surgery because I broke my wrist. It takes all the weight off your arm, you only have to keep your horn in place. It is a bit annoying to have to use the harness and lose a bit of freedom of movement. so now that I do not need it anymore, I stopped using it.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:37 am
by ttf_timothy42b
I thought I'd posted on this thread yesterday but a search shows it was a similar one instead.
Long ago Naj discussed a cantilever support he'd designed and was making work successfully. It supports the entire weight of the horn at the balance point. That separates the hand functions of resisting gravity from those that control alignment.
I thought it had some promise. My attempts to duplicate it didn't work very well, it may have been the shape of my shoulder.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:14 am
by ttf_bigbassbone1
Contact forum member "Lawrie". He makes some fantastic braces cheaper than pretty much any similar design and will tailor it to your needs, case, instrument and other specifics over email correspondence. I have bought a couple off him and recommended his brace to many other trombone players around town who are all very happy with theirs as well.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:57 am
by ttf_JP
Been using the Rath hand support for years. Love it. Not only supports the weight but helps to stabilize movement when moving the slide back and forth over large positions.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:40 pm
by ttf_Blowero
Let me add to what Dan said, which I think is good. Now don't everybody get all upset, because I'm not saying you have to hold the horn this way, and I'm not saying you can't use a brace if that's what you want to do. But I think the "traditional" grip often gets a bad rap because many players aren't doing it correctly, or don't have the levers adjusted correctly to fit their hand. Here's the "traditional" grip, from Doug Yeo's website. I think it's a good illustration, even though Doug doesn't like this grip:
If you use this grip correctly, you are most definitely not supporting the weight of the horn only with your pinkie. Most of the weight is borne between the fleshy pad at the base of the thumb, and the ring finger and pinkie at the other side of the brace. If you hold it correctly, it leaves the thumb and middle finger free to operate the levers. I think a lot of players don't understand that you are sandwiching the receiver and cork barrel between the base of your thumb and those two fingers, and that is what holds the horn up. I think many players are almost trying to make a fist, and attempting to wrap their fingers around the bottom of the cork barrel. This is not necessary, and most certainly will introduce tension into the grip. The middle finger and index finger also help support the weight. The middle finger mostly keeps the horn from sagging forward, and the index finger keeps the horn from pivoting left due to the weight of the bell. I also have a Stegman bar on my bass. I don't feel it's a necessity, but it allows my thumb to bear a small amount of the weight and enables me to hold the horn up longer without becoming fatigued.
Another mistake I think is made a lot is to position the hand too far up towards the mouthpiece. The receiver has to rest on that fleshy thumb pad, and if the thumb is too far up, you can't do that. I have converted all my thumb levers to have a shorter throw in front, so that I'm not tempted to place my hand position too high in an attempt to reach the lever. In my opinion, a lot of the bass trombones being made now have the thumb paddle too high, and the finger paddle too low. Minick did his conversions with the finger lever curving upward so that the finger paddle is more towards the center of the slide brace. Having a straight lever that parallels the lower slide tube is a newer thing, and requires too much of a stretch between index finger and middle finger (and also makes it tough to operate the lever without hitting your ring finger). I keep my middle finger higher up than what's shown in Doug's picture, and I find that more comfortable.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:41 am
by ttf_sabutin
Quote from: Blowero on Jan 22, 2017, 07:40PMLet me add to what Dan said, which I think is good. Now don't everybody get all upset, because I'm not saying you have to hold the horn this way, and I'm not saying you can't use a brace if that's what you want to do. But I think the "traditional" grip often gets a bad rap because many players aren't doing it correctly, or don't have the levers adjusted correctly to fit their hand. Here's the "traditional" grip, from Doug Yeo's website. I think it's a good illustration, even though Doug doesn't like this grip:
If you use this grip correctly, you are most definitely not supporting the weight of the horn only with your pinkie. Most of the weight is borne between the fleshy pad at the base of the thumb, and the ring finger and pinkie at the other side of the brace. If you hold it correctly, it leaves the thumb and middle finger free to operate the levers. I think a lot of players don't understand that you are sandwiching the receiver and cork barrel between the base of your thumb and those two fingers, and that is what holds the horn up. I think many players are almost trying to make a fist, and attempting to wrap their fingers around the bottom of the cork barrel. This is not necessary, and most certainly will introduce tension into the grip. The middle finger and index finger also help support the weight. The middle finger mostly keeps the horn from sagging forward, and the index finger keeps the horn from pivoting left due to the weight of the bell. I also have a Stegman bar on my bass. I don't feel it's a necessity, but it allows my thumb to bear a small amount of the weight and enables me to hold the horn up longer without becoming fatigued.
Another mistake I think is made a lot is to position the hand too far up towards the mouthpiece. The receiver has to rest on that fleshy thumb pad, and if the thumb is too far up, you can't do that. I have converted all my thumb levers to have a shorter throw in front, so that I'm not tempted to place my hand position too high in an attempt to reach the lever. In my opinion, a lot of the bass trombones being made now have the thumb paddle too high, and the finger paddle too low.
Another alternative:
This way the index finger, 4th + 5th fingers and the pad below the thumb are all involved in holding the instrument. I use several layers of self-adhesive athletic bandage on my index finger to distribute and cushion the contact with the brace.
Works for me...try it. It is so much more comfortable and more stable than the index-finger-extended grip, especially because the Shires horn I am playing is quite heavy.
Later...
S.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:59 am
by ttf_timothy42b
This weekend I was in the front row when Reginald Chapman did a presentation.
I don't know what brand that double trigger bass is but it certainly looked heavy.
He had a short bar at right angles to the brace, and it looked like the weight of the horn rested on his thumb. That looked like a good idea from my angle.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:16 am
by ttf_ssking2b
I tried straps, ergobone, Bullitt braces...settled on the neotech brace. Least hassle and excellent support for me.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:25 am
by ttf_sacfxdx
I found this to work for me. I tried the bullet brace but it was a pain to get it set correctly and then it would not fit in my case. The Neotech can be snapped on and off. You can use the same strap on multiple horns and swap quickly.
https://neotechstraps.com/trombone-grip.html
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:08 am
by ttf_zxxfgg
Has anyone used a Sheridan Get-a-Grip while using Yeo hand placement on their bass bone? I feel pretty committed to the Yeo grip for keeping my wrist/tendons straight, and it works out best with my dual triggers and to not get my hand pinched by the slide. If I revert to the traditional grip I immediately feel a lot of discomfort in my hand and forearm.
I've been considering the Get-a-grip brace for some time now to deal with the tension in my fingers from front-heaviness and counterclockwise torque of the bell section. Judging from pics online it seems that it would force my hand a bit further down the slide and prevent me from having my middle finger inside the inner slide brace. Searched across the forum and online hearing largely good things about it, but wondering if my grip would need to change in order to use the Get a grip.
The horn I want the grip for is a Holton TR181.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:48 pm
by ttf_anonymous
Hi everyone
An update on the Ax Handle we have changed our set screws that lock the S or C arms . We are now using knurled or scalop tip screws that lock the arms in tighter. Part of the problem is included in our instructions for installation . We state in our instructions not to over tighten the screws that lock the brace to the horn itself-we are concerned that some may over tighten the screws that lock the brace itself to the horn causing possible damage . Because of our design changes and our system that matches our braces to your horn the brace will lock itself tightly and not slip with way less force than it takes to damage your horn . As far as the screws that hold the S or C brace rod you can tighten them much tighter without causing any damage. In the past the older systems now sold by others did not match the diameter of the brace that it was to fit so much more pressure was needed to lock them into place and keep them from slipping.
If you are having any problems with our Ax Handle S or C arms slipping please contact us and we will send you out new set screws .
Again I will state try my Ax Handle if you are not completely satisfied I will do my best to get you happy or I will refund you . Will any other brace do that? You would think that everyone reading this thread would order one tomorrow . Nothing would make me happier and by that I mean the challenge to serve you folks with a product that I totally believe in and am offering it at a very fair price.
Thank You for considering my products.
Mike Olsen
instrumentinnovations.com
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:33 am
by ttf_musicofnote
I've got or had just about everything that's on the market. Before taking y 3 year break from playing, I would get "trombone" claw with my Bach 50BG. "Breaking" my writst so that th weight rested on the palm of my hand instead of the pinky-3rd finger didn't help.
Coming off the three year break, selling my Bach and getting a Yamaha 822G (my dream horn in terms of sound) i found I had a more serious problem -my left shoulder. +30 seconds and it would ache like crazy. Thanks to some suggestions, I changed to the Yeo grip and since I'm a reformed high-trumpet player, brought my wings into my body. Helped a lot. ... But not enough
So I ordered a NeoTech and I could now play in rehearsals because even in a run-through there was a LOT of down time. But practicing at home was still a trial.
Next I ordered an ErgoBone - this showed me how tensely I was holding the instrument. This tension starting in the fingers, running through the wrist many.and elbow was going right into my shoulder. 3-4 weeks on the ergoBone REALLY taught me how to play in a totally relaxed manner. I was blowing the house down with what i considered a mf - much more broadly than loud. But ... i could not get the instrument balanced, even with counter weights. It was nose heavy. And I could not get a real feel for "instrument-meets-face" which is different from register to register. The set-up was too static for me.
Off to trying out a Hagman (you can for 10 days and send it back without charge) as well as a Rath. It was clear with both that no amount of fiddling could give me personally a comfortable yet stabile support. Some people love one or the other, just didn't work.
I ordered a Trombone Stick from the Netherlands. Recommended by Ben van Dijk in his book. Looked like a good idea as it was anchored on your leg instead of a chest harness or the chair like the similar ErgoBone. But the instrument rides on a spring. I could only think of Muhammed Ali's "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee". It was bobbing sideways and back to front all over. Lasted all of about an hour.
Then I read a recommendation to do weight training. i laughed at it, even found it a bit arrogant but decided to try something. I went back to the NeoTech grip and decided to practice as follows:
I would practice until I started to feel the ache in my should and then continue for 10 seconds. Then take a 20 second rest. no matter what i was playing. Since i had no gigs coming, just a couple of rehearsals and knew I could handle them on the NeoTech, it was all good. I can now play with the horn on my face for about 5 minutes if need be before putting it down, shaking out my arm, waiting another 10 seconds and starting aagain. This IS a kind of weight training. It took me a couple of weeks to train my shoulder, but ... it's working.
One other point: just dropping my left arm to my side from may trumpet position didn't do it. I found I needed to point the left elbow very slight forwards. About 80 degrees down instead of 90. just that little shift, for some reason did help take the pressure off. The kind of forced me to turn my shoulder/trunk ever so slight from left to right, now with the left should maybe 1" in front of my right shoulder - that minimally. This works best for me.
There's a reason why there are so many different left hand support gadgets. there are too many different sets of symptoms, too many causes and therefore too many optimal solutions. There is no trick to it. there is just a well padded bank account and patience. Not dissimilar to finding the ideal mouthpiece.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:50 am
by ttf_wgwbassbone
I find this entire thread very interesting. I have medium size hands and I've never found the need for any of these devices. I'm not saying that you don't need them I'm just curious that's all.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:21 am
by ttf_timothy42b
Quote from: wgwbassbone on Feb 15, 2017, 08:50AMI find this entire thread very interesting. I have medium size hands and I've never found the need for any of these devices. I'm not saying that you don't need them I'm just curious that's all.
I could not play my 42B for long without the DIY brace I added, nor my straight tenor without the counterweight I improvised. So far I haven't need anything more extreme.
I can't play my valve trombone, I haven't figured how to hold it more than 5 minutes before carpal tunnel starts to rear its head.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:28 am
by ttf_Driswood
Quote from: sacfxdx on Feb 06, 2017, 05:25AMI found this to work for me. I tried the bullet brace but it was a pain to get it set correctly and then it would not fit in my case. The Neotech can be snapped on and off. You can use the same strap on multiple horns and swap quickly.
https://neotechstraps.com/trombone-grip.html
How easy are mute changes with this setup?
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:52 am
by ttf_sacfxdx
I change mutes with my right hand so it's not a problem. Only challenge is plunger work but you may not have much of that on bass. It's cheap enough (unlike bullet brace) to buy and try. Lots of adjustment to make it feel just right.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:53 pm
by ttf_Burgerbob
The Get-a-Grip and daily arm, shoulder, and hand exercises keep me in good playing shape.
I use my grip on my other horns too, even if they aren't as "heavy." Bass does have the advantage (at least some horns, anyway) of being pretty well balanced to the rear, unlike most F attachment, or especially, straight tenors.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:26 pm
by ttf_ALT
I have had a thumb rest added to my bassbone. Both valves have been modified/repositioned so that I don't have to stretch as far.
I have an ergobone, which I bought after I dislocated my left shoulder. Was great then on all of my horns for practise, and if my shoulder is ever giving me grief and I have a long day of practise ahead, it's great for that. Never used it on a gig though, can't imagine it being comfortable in that situation, especially if mutes are involved.
John Mackey, Saxophone Lecturer from ANU, Canberra (Australia) has made a saxophone stand, which is much less obtrusive than it appears in the following link. He's hoping to make stands for all instruments, and has had enthusiasm expressed by fellow trombone players to create one.
Check it out here:
http://citynews.com.au/2016/anu-designs-better-saxophone-stand/
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:20 am
by ttf_kbiggs
Quote from: wgwbassbone on Feb 15, 2017, 08:50AMI find this entire thread very interesting. I have medium size hands and I've never found the need for any of these devices. I'm not saying that you don't need them I'm just curious that's all.
I, too, have medium sized hands. In my case, I believe it's a combination of being slightly taller than average, having a rather slim build with less than average muscle mass, lack of exercise (resistance training), and over-use. For me, it's the wrist, forearm, elbow, and shoulder that feel pain, weakness, etc., not necessarily the hands. But the body parts are all connected. Over-compensation with one set of muscles, tendons and ligaments for a weaker set is, what I believe, started the problem.
If my arms and upper body were naturally stronger and had a little more mass, if I hadn't been so arrogant as a kid -- "Nobody's gonna tell ME not to practice for 2 hours at a time!" -- if I had taken the time to exercise, lift weights, etc., given my day jobs sitting for so many years, then maybe I wouldn't need the Get-a-Grip or the ErgoBone. C'est la vie. It's where I am today. Aaaaannnddd.... I'm still not lifting weights...
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:41 pm
by ttf_anonymous
The past few days I've come to the point where I've had to concede that in order to play my bass trombone (a Schiller 7B clone), I need some kind of support. The bullet brace on it works as well as it possibly can, and the horn is balanced about as well as one can expect. I also removed the ring from under the mouthpiece receiver and replaced it with a comfortable hook on the other side of the brace there. Holding the horn with the left hand is very comfortable now.
What's NOT comfortable is playing it for about ten minutes or more as a direct result of the pain in my left arm and shoulder. There's no way to relieve this short of a support for the horn. The reason for this is that I have pretty severe shoulder arthritis. I turn 70 in another month.
I spent a couple of days thinking I might get an Ergobone or a Trombone SpineSaver, but I don't really need anything as complex as either of these, I'd rather not spend that amount of money (though I certainly can if it's really the solution I want), and I want to be able to easily put my horn on a trombone stand without detaching something from it or worrying about an attachment hitting the bell or other things.
Finally, I crafted my own support out of a length of 3/4" PVC pipe, one 'T' fitting, one right angle fitting, and some foam pipe insulation. the bottom of the length of the pipe just sits on my seat or cushion between my legs, and my hand rests on the insulation-shrouded combination of the two fittings at the top.
For me, it really works since it takes all the weight off my left arm/shoulder, and the horn still (with the bullet brace) rests comfortably in my hand as the hand rests on the support. In a fundamental way, it's like a shooting stick with a 'Y' at the top, but in this case, there a kind of 'T' at the top with one end curved up (the right angle fitting for the back of the left hand to rest against). No straps or adjustable locks for length. I think I shouldn't ever need to adjust the length, but if I do, I have a simple modification in mind (or I might decide to splurge on a cheap adjustable walking stick to replace the major pipe support). It's very light and does not require attaching to the horn.
This may need some minor modification as I use it more, but it seems to work just fine. I doesn't provide the sort of very general solution that either of the commercial products does to a variety of different conditions, and it obviously won't suffice for a number of people. But for my particular need, it seems to work great. Cost was $0 since I had the materials lying around.
Best left hand support option for bass trombone
Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:59 am
by ttf_crazytrombonist505
Hello all,
I thought I'd give you guys an update on what I decided to use for support. After I tried the Neotech and found out that it wouldn't work for my Benge, I bought a Sheridan Brass Get-a-Grip here on the forum. I'm super happy with it! It works great! It is a very unique design that works quite well on my horn. It is very easy to take on and off. There are no issues (at least that I've noticed.)
Just thought I'd let everyone know what I finally decided.
Thanks,
Zach