.500 bore mouthpieces
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.500 bore mouthpieces
What is the largest mouthpiece that any of you use regularly on a .500 bore tenor? Anyone using bigger than a 6 1/2 AL?
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
- Matt K
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
I use an XT104N/C/C3 on that bore size usually. The rim is quite a bit larger than the 6.5AL, though the cup shallower. I also use an LB114/D/D3 on my small bore from time to time, but it's mostly to keep my bass chops in shape without carrying a super heavy instrument around. I live in a condo where I can't play without a mute in. The new silent brass doesn't fit basses and the old one is a lot heavier (as are the valves!). So I usually don't take that with me on gigs.
- Doug Elliott
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
I play on my XT N104 rim, my C+ cup, and D2 shank, on a Williams 6 most of the time but I also use a .500 bore Schmelzer and I use pretty much the same setup on alto.
For comparison that's about a Bach 3 rim size and the cup is a bit shallower than a 6-1/2AL.
There are plenty or recordings and videos around if you want to see what it sounds like.
Here's one, it doesn't show credits but that's me:
For comparison that's about a Bach 3 rim size and the cup is a bit shallower than a 6-1/2AL.
There are plenty or recordings and videos around if you want to see what it sounds like.
Here's one, it doesn't show credits but that's me:
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
Thanks Matt. That is a large size!Matt K wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 3:47 pm I use an XT104N/C/C3 on that bore size usually. The rim is quite a bit larger than the 6.5AL, though the cup shallower. I also use an LB114/D/D3 on my small bore from time to time, but it's mostly to keep my bass chops in shape without carrying a super heavy instrument around. I live in a condo where I can't play without a mute in. The new silent brass doesn't fit basses and the old one is a lot heavier (as are the valves!). So I usually don't take that with me on gigs.
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
- Doug Elliott
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
"Large" does not mean harder to play. For those of us whose embouchures are more suited to large rims, it's actually a lot easier in every way.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
Beautiful sound Doug! Very nice. I started lessons a couple of weeks ago and have been playing on a 6 3/4C and my instructor immediately said I need to go bigger. I've switched to a 6 1/2AL for now because that's all is have. I may go bigger. I didn't know if the bigger pieces would work on a .500 bore horn but you sure sound great! I appreciate the video.Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 4:36 pm I play on my XT N104 rim, my C+ cup, and D2 shank, on a Williams 6 most of the time but I also use a .500 bore Schmelzer and I use pretty much the same setup on alto.
For comparison that's about a Bach 3 rim size and the cup is a bit shallower than a 6-1/2AL.
There are plenty or recordings and videos around if you want to see what it sounds like.
Here's one, it doesn't show credits but that's me:
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
I also use an XT104/C/3 for my bright 48h and /E/4 for my 10h (500 bore) with a meatier sound. I feel more comfortable and flexible with the larger rim.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
I think you'll find a lot of variation out there with regard to rim size. Less so with the cup. I've heard of people using a 5G size, but it was always in the context of how unusual that was. On the other end of the spectrum, t's not terribly common to find 15C's out there like you used to. I'd guess 95% play something of the cup size of a 12C up to a 6.5AL.
I favor a bright sound on a small horn, so I like a C-ish sized cup. I use a DE C cup most of the time, but I have a Laskey 48C that really makes the horn pop. It doesn't look much different, but the sound is REALLY different when pushed.
I'd love to get Doug's thoughts. I'm sure he deals with more trombone players in a year than I've ever met in my life.
I favor a bright sound on a small horn, so I like a C-ish sized cup. I use a DE C cup most of the time, but I have a Laskey 48C that really makes the horn pop. It doesn't look much different, but the sound is REALLY different when pushed.
I'd love to get Doug's thoughts. I'm sure he deals with more trombone players in a year than I've ever met in my life.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
DE equivalent to a Bach 5 on my .491 bore King 2B and on my .508 bore 3B. What Doug Elliott said - the correct mouthpiece for a given horn depends on the player as well as the horn. I had a friends play a Bach 15 for years. He learned by accident (forgot his mouthpiece at home and borrowed a larger piece off another player) how much it was holding them back when he were forced to try something different. Me, I sold off a 2B years ago because I didn't like the horn. I was using a 7c because, well, anything larger was "wrong". I ended up realizing a larger mouthpiece worked much better for me (thanks, Doug!) and was lucky enough to find another 2B.
Nice sound there, Doug, BTW!
Nice sound there, Doug, BTW!
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing!
Greg Songer
King 606, DE LT101/LTD/D3
King 4B-F: Bach 5G Megatone gold plated
Greg Songer
King 606, DE LT101/LTD/D3
King 4B-F: Bach 5G Megatone gold plated
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
LTN102/C+/D2 on a King 2B+
Ken Jackson
King 2b+, King 3b
Elliott LT 104N, C, C2
Elliott LT 104N, C+, D2
King 2b+, King 3b
Elliott LT 104N, C, C2
Elliott LT 104N, C+, D2
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
Thanks Doug. I'm learning that. Much easier on this 6 1/2 AL overall. I do feel like I'm giving up a little on the upper range but the sound overall is much much better.Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 4:59 pm "Large" does not mean harder to play. For those of us whose embouchures are more suited to large rims, it's actually a lot easier in every way.
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
Thanks. I will eventually probably order something from Doug as I use his mouthpiece on my tuba and love it.hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 7:01 pm I also use an XT104/C/3 for my bright 48h and /E/4 for my 10h (500 bore) with a meatier sound. I feel more comfortable and flexible with the larger rim.
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
- greenbean
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
Somewhat bigger mouthpieces seems to work best for me on .500, .508, or .525. Bach 5, Schilke 51B, or Stork T1S.
Bach 4 and 3 are available in small shank...
Bach 4 and 3 are available in small shank...
Tom in San Francisco
Currently playing...
Bach Corp 16M
Many French horns
Currently playing...
Bach Corp 16M
Many French horns
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
I agree. It sure gets expensive to experiment.Corey wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 7:32 pm I think you'll find a lot of variation out there with regard to rim size. Less so with the cup. I've heard of people using a 5G size, but it was always in the context of how unusual that was. On the other end of the spectrum, t's not terribly common to find 15C's out there like you used to. I'd guess 95% play something of the cup size of a 12C up to a 6.5AL.
I favor a bright sound on a small horn, so I like a C-ish sized cup. I use a DE C cup most of the time, but I have a Laskey 48C that really makes the horn pop. It doesn't look much different, but the sound is REALLY different when pushed.
I'd love to get Doug's thoughts. I'm sure he deals with more trombone players in a year than I've ever met in my life.
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
- Kingfan
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
You can do an in-person or Skype lesson with Doug Elliott and he can cut right to the chase.Davidus1 wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 8:21 pmI agree. It sure gets expensive to experiment.Corey wrote: ↑Tue May 22, 2018 7:32 pm I think you'll find a lot of variation out there with regard to rim size. Less so with the cup. I've heard of people using a 5G size, but it was always in the context of how unusual that was. On the other end of the spectrum, t's not terribly common to find 15C's out there like you used to. I'd guess 95% play something of the cup size of a 12C up to a 6.5AL.
I favor a bright sound on a small horn, so I like a C-ish sized cup. I use a DE C cup most of the time, but I have a Laskey 48C that really makes the horn pop. It doesn't look much different, but the sound is REALLY different when pushed.
I'd love to get Doug's thoughts. I'm sure he deals with more trombone players in a year than I've ever met in my life.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing!
Greg Songer
King 606, DE LT101/LTD/D3
King 4B-F: Bach 5G Megatone gold plated
Greg Songer
King 606, DE LT101/LTD/D3
King 4B-F: Bach 5G Megatone gold plated
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
I use a Bach 4C on my Martin Imperial, and have lately been experimenting with a Warburton 7D and a 4 backbore. Works fine for me (but I play a Wick 4BL or 4BS on my classical horns.
Also playing with a Doug Elliott 102N on an E cup (LT series)
Also playing with a Doug Elliott 102N on an E cup (LT series)
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
11C, as it gets the sound. The rest I'll just work through.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
I was using a Bach 4C with a 6H. I recently just started playing a Yamaha 691 (.508 bore) with the same mouthpiece. For the previous 4 or 5 years I always used smaller mouthpieces like 12C and 7C with the 6H because that's what I was always told to play with a horn that size. Always struggled. After a couple of lessons between Dave Wilken and Doug, I was pointed in the right direction for myself, which, like others here, was trending towards larger rim sizes. Overall I have better range, control, and sound in both directions, high and low.
Your experience may vary, but as already mentioned, there aren't many questions about mouthpieces and how they work with your chops that Doug can't answer.
Your experience may vary, but as already mentioned, there aren't many questions about mouthpieces and how they work with your chops that Doug can't answer.
- FeelMyRath
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
I play a Rath Lightweigt 5BB on my R4F, a Rath standard weight 4BB on Euph, and I played a Yamaha 45C2-GP on my .500" bore. I'm a big believer in matching my rim size to the instrument although I could be very wrong on that. Every time I played something bigger on my .500" bore I just couldn't get the sound I wanted. Likewise if I play something too small on Euph or too big on my .547" bore.
Experiment and see what works for you. Isn't life just fun?
Experiment and see what works for you. Isn't life just fun?
Making the world better, one note at a time
Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Yorkshire, United Kingdom
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
The problem with that is that the rim size has very little to do with how a mouthpiece matches up to an instrument. Cup shape, depth, and backbore all have a much more important relationship with horn size than rim size. That said, most mouthpiece makers manufacture their pieces so that larger rims have deep cups, and smaller rims come with shallow cups, so that is partially why so many people advocate for using small mouthpieces with small bore trombones. Your 45C2 matches the horn not because the rim is small, but because the cup, backbore, throat, etc. are designed with a small horn in mind.FeelMyRath wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 1:35 pm I play a Rath Lightweigt 5BB on my R4F, a Rath standard weight 4BB on Euph, and I played a Yamaha 45C2-GP on my .500" bore. I'm a big believer in matching my rim size to the instrument although I could be very wrong on that.
That said, if you don't have any problem with a rim that small, no worries at all. No one is suggesting that players shouldn't play on a small rim. It's more that players often are told that you NEED a small rimmed mouthpiece to get the "correct" sound/feel/blow these horns, and for many people, their faces simply cannot function well with a rim size as small as a 12C, 11C, or even 7C.
- Kingfan
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
Just remembered - one of my buddies plays a King 3B-F/Bach 3 combo. He told me he has tried smaller mouthpieces/rims in the past and keeps coming back to the 3.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are still missing!
Greg Songer
King 606, DE LT101/LTD/D3
King 4B-F: Bach 5G Megatone gold plated
Greg Songer
King 606, DE LT101/LTD/D3
King 4B-F: Bach 5G Megatone gold plated
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
Thanks. I had it in my head that I had to use a small mouthpiece with a small horn. Learning otherwise.
Conn Victor 5H
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
Yamaha YSL-630
Yamaha YSL-354
Miraphone 186 BBb
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
I cannot overstate how much Doug Elliott helped my approach to the horn after taking a look at my "brass face" and suggesting a larger rim diameter. I'm playing on his LT102 sized rim (about a Bach 4G) on an array of his Cups and Shanks (B2, C3, C4, D3, D4, E4, E8, G8). I struggled for decades trying to make my face work in rim sizes ranging between VB 11C and 7C sized rims. THANK you, Doug.
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
.500 bore mouthpiece. I thought my Greg Black OG was huge with a .318 backbore. LOL
Seriously, I use a 1.03"/26.1mm rim with different cups and back bores depending if I am playing lead , solo or section work in a Big Band.Being a Bass Trombonist, Contrabass Trombonist and Tubist also, my choice depends on how much I played them B4 I pick up my small bore. At least where I start off. I have a Hammond 10ML Skeletonized and 10ML/L ( Both Custom) DOug Elliott G* and H*/H4 as well as a Warburton 7D with 6* BB. I also use a Warburton 7M with 5 BB on Alto. FWIW
Seriously, I use a 1.03"/26.1mm rim with different cups and back bores depending if I am playing lead , solo or section work in a Big Band.Being a Bass Trombonist, Contrabass Trombonist and Tubist also, my choice depends on how much I played them B4 I pick up my small bore. At least where I start off. I have a Hammond 10ML Skeletonized and 10ML/L ( Both Custom) DOug Elliott G* and H*/H4 as well as a Warburton 7D with 6* BB. I also use a Warburton 7M with 5 BB on Alto. FWIW
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
Just starting out with the DE. That array looks to me like a couple thousand dollar investment!
-What's the array of horns these go with?
-How many LT102s go with them? (I can imagine anywhere between 1-8 or even more since there're so many finishs.)
Philip Carlson
TR-181, 72H, 88HCL, 32H, 30H, 4H, 50's Super, 40's Super, Buescher True-Tone 410 & The Buescher, Constellation Euph, Getzen Severenson
TR-181, 72H, 88HCL, 32H, 30H, 4H, 50's Super, 40's Super, Buescher True-Tone 410 & The Buescher, Constellation Euph, Getzen Severenson
- BGuttman
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
You would select the rim for your embouchure size and the finish depending on how "grippy" you want it to be. Gold is least grippy, Lexan is most. You can swap rims onto different cups.
As an example: I have an LT102 in gold and an LT 102N in silver. I use them (interchangeably) on a G cup for a "classical" sound (I have an H cup but it's too deep) and an E cup for more commercial sound. I have an E4 backbore, and E8 and G8 backbores. I also have a D2 backbore that I will use on some small bore horns.
So I have the equivalent of two complete systems to cover about a half dozen instruments.
As an example: I have an LT102 in gold and an LT 102N in silver. I use them (interchangeably) on a G cup for a "classical" sound (I have an H cup but it's too deep) and an E cup for more commercial sound. I have an E4 backbore, and E8 and G8 backbores. I also have a D2 backbore that I will use on some small bore horns.
So I have the equivalent of two complete systems to cover about a half dozen instruments.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
You mentioned the D2 backbore but not a D cup. Do you use it with the E&G cups?BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat May 26, 2018 7:19 pm As an example: I have an LT102 in gold and an LT 102N in silver. I use them (interchangeably) on a G cup for a "classical" sound (I have an H cup but it's too deep) and an E cup for more commercial sound. I have an E4 backbore, and E8 and G8 backbores. I also have a D2 backbore that I will use on some small bore horns.
I don't understand why the shank is supposed to match the letter on the cups. I had thought it was to match throats, but have no idea really. Is the throat on DE mps in the cup or the shank (or at the joint). I had used a borrowed I cup with a borrowed K shank. I didn't have an I shank to compare, but it worked well for me. I'm now borrowing a K cup with the K shank. The larger cup is working for me, but I'm mostly just glad the letters match up. I felt like I was breaking am important rule with the mismatched I/K combo.
Philip Carlson
TR-181, 72H, 88HCL, 32H, 30H, 4H, 50's Super, 40's Super, Buescher True-Tone 410 & The Buescher, Constellation Euph, Getzen Severenson
TR-181, 72H, 88HCL, 32H, 30H, 4H, 50's Super, 40's Super, Buescher True-Tone 410 & The Buescher, Constellation Euph, Getzen Severenson
- Matt K
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
The difference is due to the lengths. The most extrme example is an A cup vs. a P cup. An a cup is extremely shallow, so the shank is most of the length of the mouthpiece vs. the cup which is only a small part. The shank is very short comparatively on the P cup because the cup is so deep. If you were to put an A shank on a P cup, it would be... a very long mouthpiece. Much longer than the size it should be!PhilipEdCarlson wrote: ↑Sun May 27, 2018 9:54 pmYou mentioned the D2 backbore but not a D cup. Do you use it with the E&G cups?BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat May 26, 2018 7:19 pm As an example: I have an LT102 in gold and an LT 102N in silver. I use them (interchangeably) on a G cup for a "classical" sound (I have an H cup but it's too deep) and an E cup for more commercial sound. I have an E4 backbore, and E8 and G8 backbores. I also have a D2 backbore that I will use on some small bore horns.
I don't understand why the shank is supposed to match the letter on the cups. I had thought it was to match throats, but have no idea really. Is the throat on DE mps in the cup or the shank (or at the joint). I had used a borrowed I cup with a borrowed K shank. I didn't have an I shank to compare, but it worked well for me. I'm now borrowing a K cup with the K shank. The larger cup is working for me, but I'm mostly just glad the letters match up. I felt like I was breaking am important rule with the mismatched I/K combo.
The throat is actually inside the shank. Meaning that if you wanted a different throat, you could have Doug make you one and A/B compare throats on the same cup. In order to do that, some of the material on the inside of the shank is different diameters, especially for the smaller cups. E.g. if you use a C shank in a G cup, you'll notice that there's a lip on the inside of the shank portion of the piece where it meets up with the ridge of the cup. The opposite, a G shank on a C cup has the opposite ridge.
So there are two design elements that make it more conducive to match the cup to the shank.
For some of the cups, you can go +/- a size without too much of a difference... though others are better at that. I used an M8 shank on an LB L for the better part of a few months before acquring an L8 shank. I do notice the difference but I could conceivably understand someone liking the 'incorrect' one over the 'correct' one because it does feel a touch more broad. I tend to like things to be focused so I prefer the L shank on that particular piece.
For those who might be in this scenario: If you give his pieces a try with the mismatched parts and don't like it, do give the 'appropriate' configuration a toot and see if that fixes things! One of the big advantages of his pieces but also a negative in that if you don't really understand the nomenclature and just put the parts together and assume that they were engineered to all work together, you might get the wrong impression! But it really gives a lot of flexibility in customizing something from stock parts!
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
It's a design thing. For most horns and most players, a mismatched set will not play well, or at least not as well as it should. If you want it to work well, what I designed and tested, match the letters. The only exceptions are most of the "+" cups work best with the next larger shank: C+ cup uses a D shank.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: .500 bore mouthpieces
Thanks Matt!
I think I got it!
Length & Interface
And Doug, Design. I assume that includes length, interface and other secret sauce stuff!
I think I got it!
Length & Interface
And Doug, Design. I assume that includes length, interface and other secret sauce stuff!
Philip Carlson
TR-181, 72H, 88HCL, 32H, 30H, 4H, 50's Super, 40's Super, Buescher True-Tone 410 & The Buescher, Constellation Euph, Getzen Severenson
TR-181, 72H, 88HCL, 32H, 30H, 4H, 50's Super, 40's Super, Buescher True-Tone 410 & The Buescher, Constellation Euph, Getzen Severenson