TromboneChat

Hi everyone,

Just thought I would share a wonderful and rare trombone that I have in my playing rotation for historical music.

It's a 1927/1928 Courtois tenor trombone with quart - F piston valve.

Made before the factory moved in 29/30 it's design and size is in keeping with the old style Courtois's from the previous century.

I use this trombone as a 3rd trombone for French Romantic orchestral music where the French orchestral G - bass would have been replaced as was popular, and 3 tenors used for each part.

The bell, interesting, sits around 4th position, similar to traditional baroque trombones.

Enjoy,
Sam

Gorgeous. Does it play as good as it looks?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 4:01 pm Gorgeous. Does it play as good as it looks?

Yes, it has a great sound.

I had the slide and some small things recently repaired by Marcel and the team at Atelier Pfeiffer in the Hague, and it runs great now.

The Valve is also interesting to use, honestly not the most ergonomic to hold, but moves smoothly and fast.

Gorgeous horn. Stunning!

What a beauty!

So, Rue de Marais preceded Rue de Nancy?

timbone wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:29 am So, Rue de Marais preceded Rue de Nancy?

Yes, the history of the Courtois workshops are as follows;

1789-1803 “Courtois” Rue de Mazarine

In 1803 The company split into two differnt fabriques.
1. 1803-1862 “Courtois Neveu Aine” translates - Courtois’ oldest cousin. They worked at Rue Des Vieux Augustus A Paris.

In 1862 this offshoot closes.

2. 1803-1844 “Courtois Freres” translates - Courtois Brothers. They worked at #25 and #21 Rue du Caire in Paris.

In 1844 Courtois Freres became Antoine Courtois and worked only out of #21 rue du Caire until 1855, when they moved to #88 Rue des Marais St. Martin, Paris.

From 1856-1929 they worked at Rue des Marais St. Martin, at which time the workshop started moving over to 8 Rue de Nancy.

In 1930 Courtois left Rue des Marais completely and worked out of de Nancy until closing in 1938 due to owner Paul Gaudet going to fight in WWII.

A full history can be read here: https://www.brasshistory.net/Courtois%20Dating.pdf

Sorry to hijack this topic, but I think it is kind of related. I have a very similar Courtois, about the same age, with the piston F-valve. I also have a straight Courtois bell of roughly the same age. Only one usable slide that fits both bells. (The other slide is terribly damaged.) It is all in very usuable condition (valve and slides work well and the handslide could use some cleaning, but works really quite well).

I once had plans to use them, maybe even getting them completely overhauled, but that never happened. And with changing priorities, I have decided that I'd rather find a new home for them. Does any of you know a player (or orchestra?) that might be interested in these two bells and slide? I'm not looking to get the most out of it financially, but I'd rather find a good home. Thanks!

Bart wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 4:41 am Does any of you know a player (or orchestra?) that might be interested in these two bells and slide? I'm not looking to get the most out of it financially, but I'd rather find a good home. Thanks!

Hi Bart - I'm a historical trombonist and I'm really interested in your instrument! I can't seem to DM (maybe don't have enough posts or something..). But if you could email me, that would be great! My email is my username @gmail.com. Thanks!

Garrett

Garrett: just as a side note, you need 3 approved posts to be able to DM. Sorry. We had to do that because of 'bots.

Very cool horn!

SamBTbrn wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 3:49 pm It's a 1927/1928 Courtois tenor trombone with quart - F piston valve. Made before the factory moved in 29/30 it's design and size is in keeping with the old style Courtois's from the previous century.

Intriguing... is the wrap original? If so, the "open wrap" predates its supposed invention in the early 1980s by Larry Minick.

I remember seeing a picture of a Bach instrument with a piston valve F-attachment in the early 1960s with a similar wrap.

The E attachment used in the early 20th Century (my picture of the Boston Symphony Low Brass) shows an open loop for the E attachment (2 loops around the bell side matching the tuning slide.

I don't know if Minick claimed "invention" although the newer valves of the 1980s required an open wrap.

John, Yes its original.
It's also good to note that German trombones with quart valves from the 19th century/early 20th century also had a very "open" style wrap.
I would consider this "open wrap"

Also, here it is next to it's counterpart - G bass from 1905.

Looks like in some published sources consensus orbits around the idea that LA maker Larry Minick first used it for custom valve jobs in the 1970s. Certainly, Bach's open wrap "BO" designations for their standard rotary valves (36BO, 42BO, 50B3O, etc.) didn't appear until the (late?) 1980s. Thing is though, here we have instruments pre-dating this by at least 80 years. The Horniman Museum's 1933 Boosey & Hawkes Betty model bass trombone in G has an open-wrap D valve similar to your Courtois; I wonder if it is a later modification, since they usually have a closed wrap, like this one, built 1939 (Royal Conservatoire of Scotland, item 551).

Jonathan, it's definitely original, and the design pre-dates both of the examples you posted.

Just because Larry was the only one building them onto the "modern horns" in the 70's doesn't mean that he invented the concept.

The independent double trigger system for contrabass trombone exhisted already in the early 20th century, 30-40 or so years before the "invention" of the double independent trigger bass trombone.

Published articles can still be wrong!

Best
Sam