TromboneChat

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:18 am I'm reading your post again and thought about it a bit. I don't know your playing, but you mentioned the mouthpiece going up towards your nose to ascend and that it is touching your nose, which suggests that you are a high placement, downstream type embouchure. This sometimes means that you can benefit from a wider inner rim/cup diameter. I am a downstream type and I use the Doug Elliott N106 rim, or similarly wide rims in that ballpark. The "N" rim is beneficial for high placement because you can get a wider inner diameter without it pushing up on your nose.

So again, Doug is probably right on the money. An N101 is a wider ID than the 7C you usually play, which would go along with the embouchure type he likely assessed. The "N" means that it will have a similar or even more narrow *outer* diameter (OD) than the 7C, to help prevent it from touching your nose, or to at least allow an even higher placement.

The C+ cup is something I have used on lead bone in a few different big bands, and Doug's small bore backbores are the best I've tried for small tenor. I wouldn't use something shallower than that because lead bone is really not *just* playing high. You need to have a clear sound in the whole register.

The Warburton "S" cup is specifically marketed for alto trombone and "unusual high register playing", a completely different thing altogether from lead bone playing. I would definitely ask for a return on that one if you only just bought it, and check out the C+/D2 combo that Doug suggested. If you absolutely were stuck on keeping the "S" cup, I would pair it with the most open throat that Warburton offers that mates to that cup, to help you put out sound and project. I don't know if they offer a shank with an open throat but balanced/tightish backbore.

frankgalante wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:34 pm

I understood what you said about the N cup and high placement, and i agree. Probably would be a good idea to try a bunch of Doug Mouthpieces. Doug has recommended that mouthpiece i mentioned above a few months ago on a skype call, but i am a lttle worried it won't work on a small bore.

But yes probably the 7C is small for me, but i'm used to it, although i need something bigger i m afraid of losing range and endurance, probably a larger cup will prevent this problem with my nose.
ALSO i had this thing with the 12S T3 that pedals were very easy to get but high notes sounded awful, why is that?

The Warburton i bought 12S T3 feels way too small and shallow, as i mentioned earlier it feels tight and i split a lot of tones.
I m going to return it tomorrow and try to get something larger,

- what is your opinion on a 10M (6.5 rim) with a T3 Backbore?
Or maybe i should get something smaller?

- Is the M cup effective for lead or its too shallow still to get a good sound?

- is the jump from a 7C to a 6.5 Rim a good idea or its gonna kill my playing?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:10 pm

frankgalante wrote: ↑Wed Mar 06, 2024 7:34 pm

I understood what you said about the N cup and high placement, and i agree. Probably would be a good idea to try a bunch of Doug Mouthpieces. Doug has recommended that mouthpiece i mentioned above a few months ago on a skype call, but i am a lttle worried it won't work on a small bore.

The C+/D2 combo will work perfectly on small bore. I play a Doug Elliott N106.C+.D3 on my 3B for lead playing in a big band, and it is great for that job. If Doug says that the D2 shank is the right one for your trombone, rest assured, he is correct.

But yes probably the 7C is small for me, but i'm used to it, although i need something bigger i m afraid of losing range and endurance, probably a larger cup will prevent this problem with my nose.
ALSO i had this thing with the 12S T3 that pedals were very easy to get but high notes sounded awful, why is that?

I don't know much about the Warburton backbores. The wider cup *might* help you to play without shifting as much, but you will have to experiment. If Doug thinks it will, he is probably right. He knows more than anyone I can think of how to match a rim size to someone after seeing them play. You will likely GAIN range and endurance if you take his advice. The conventional idea about a smaller size mouthpiece automatically meaning better high range and endurance is completely wrong. Having the correct sized mouthpiece for *you* will help with those things.

The Warburton i bought 12S T3 feels way too small and shallow, as i mentioned earlier it feels tight and i split a lot of tones.
I m going to return it tomorrow and try to get something larger,

Sounds reasonable! You need to think about what works and what doesn't for you, and make decisions based on that.

- what is your opinion on a 10M (6.5 rim) with a T3 Backbore?
Or maybe i should get something smaller?

Probably don't go smaller. The 6.5 size is the smallest cup diameter that I would ever recommend to a student, personally, and generally only for very young players. In my experience, and letting other players try mouthpieces that I own, most players are downstream players, and do best on rims between a Doug Elliott 101 (5G width) and 103 (4G width). People who naturally play better on rims smaller than a 6.5 are pretty rare.

- Is the M cup effective for lead or its too shallow still to get a good sound?

Warburton advertises their M cup as being for LEAD playing, with all capital letters so I would hope it would work on lead, but I never tried one.

- is the jump from a 7C to a 6.5 Rim a good idea or its gonna kill my playing?

This is impossible to say if it's a good idea. Like I said, I start brand new beginners who have never held a trombone before on a 6.5 sized piece. That tiny jump definitely will not kill your playing. It probably will help it. But, if Doug told you that an N101 would be the best fit for you, a 6.5 is likely still too small.

I'll put it this way, your question is similar to this one: If I put springs on a bunch of shoes that let you jump 10 feet into the air and slam dunk the basketball, would you jump higher and have better endurance if you wore the size 5 spring shoes? The size 10 spring shoes? The size 14 spring shoes? Personally, I wear a size 14. You might wear a size 10, like so many people do. The thing that is interesting about the shoe is not that it fits your foot, it's that it has giant springs attached to it, that let us jump 10 feet and slam harder than Michael Jordan. If the job is to tap dance, would you tap better in size 5 tap shoes, size 10, or size 14? Probably size 10 again, or whatever your actual correct shoe size is. Even though the tap shoe is completely different from the shoes we bolted springs to, and they do a completely different job, they still need to fit your feet properly so your feet can move in them properly. But the fact they fit your feet isn't what makes them interesting. For me, mouthpieces are like that. The rim is one thing, and it needs to fit your face and let your face move properly. The rest of the mouthpiece is the other thing, which actually does the specific job you need it for.

frankgalante wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 9:30 pm Edit: Doug Elliot Suggested me a LT SERIES N101 C+ D2 , although i dont know if that mouthpiece would fit a jazz small bore for lead playing. It seems to be too large of rim for lead playing.
What would be a Warburton equivalent?