Small Thayers

[derekcgullett]

Hello everyone! I can’t sleep and that means you’re going to be subjected to some of my sleepless thoughts and questions.

We see Thayer and Axial Flow valves on large-bore tenors and basses from practically everywhere, but it recently occurred to me that we don’t see them on anything smaller than a large-bore tenor.

That leads to my first question: Why is that? From my total lack of experience in instrument-building and repair, I can at least deduce that there could be some serious issues not limited to weight, ergonomics, and overall balance. I could also foresee issues in machining and crafting the “right”-sized valve to “work” with a smaller-bore horn. From an active trombonist’s perspective, I could see how there wouldn’t be much of a need for a Thayer’s wide airflow/action in a medium-to-small-bore horn (and also how it could be too much).

One could also say that there is less of a need for a valve on a smaller-bore horn in general, which is why there are fewer examples of them. Of the examples of valved, small-bore horns that I can think of off the top of my head (King 3BF/3BF+, custom Shires small-bore F-attachments, Conn 36H among many other valved altos, etc.), every one of them has some sort of rotor valve versus other valve options. That leads to my other question: Has anyone ever experimented with Thayer valves (or other non-standard rotor valve options) on medium-to-small-bore horns? I can’t think of any examples of a small-bore horn using a Thayer valve other than one that showed up in a dream a few weeks ago (which is why I’m writing this post in the first place).

I’m in no way advocating that something like this should exist on a wide scale (if at all), but I am wondering if anyone here with more knowledge than myself (not hard to accomplish) has their own thoughts/experiences with Thayer valves on smaller-bore horns. It’s such an absurd concept that I feel it could make for some interesting conversation.

[Doug Elliott]

Cost of design, tooling, and manufacturing vs a very small market for small bore F attachments.

[BGuttman]

The reason we have a Thayer or Hahmann valvr is because the valve on the Bach 42B was undersize and felt stuffy. Conn, King, Holton, Olds all did not have this problem. We have had this discussion many times in the past.

[harrisonreed]

It doesn't exist in bore size smaller than .562 (I think?) so you'd have to tool up to build it. And then you'd have a large oversized valve on a trombone with a narrow slide crook. There's a reason why you barely see even 88Hs with thayers.

It would make a 3B physically unplayable to say nothing of a 36H.

[tbonesullivan]

As others have noted, there just wouldn't be any type of market. I think I remember hearing something about wanting to use them on French horns? I think they are just only really useful with large bore tenor and bass trombones. They have clearance issues, which would pretty much make them impossible to fit on a lot of trombones. Reducing the bore size would not result in a much smaller valve overall.

[Burgerbob]

Slide width.

[spencercarran]

You can buy a Hagmann valve for 0.525 bore tenor trombones. Not sure that I've ever seen a medium bore trombone outfitted with one. Every medium bore F attachment horn I've tried with a rotor (even middling student horns like the Bach 200b) responds well enough in the valve that it's probably not worth the added expense and complexity of tooling up for a different valve type, and I'm sure that's doubly true for even smaller instruments like 3bf.

[elmsandr]

If somebody wants to tool up and front the cost, I could probably be talked into one at a normal price…. But I doubt it will work particularly well, for all the reasons listed above.

But it WOULD make an impression coming out of the case.

Make some tiny ones, a flugel might be really cool with some.

Cheers,
Andy

[LIBrassCo]

It can definitely be done in an ergonomically friendly manner, but would still need a small bore valve