Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
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Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
Do mouthpieces, leadpipes, and F attachments affect a horn’s intonation? I was struggling last night after putting in a straight gooseneck. I don’t remember it being as difficult and 5th and 6th partials were extremely sharp. Can various combinations of mouthpieces, feed pipes etc. make that much of a difference?
Last edited by Bach5G on Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
Absolutely.
Changing between and f-attachment and a straight neckpipe is a pretty complicated from an acoustic standpoint.
Changing between and f-attachment and a straight neckpipe is a pretty complicated from an acoustic standpoint.
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
I use a straight gooseneck every now and then with my edwards and my tuning slide is just over an inch different in each setup.
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
That's crazy!!
Are they the same length? The distance between the end of the handslide receiver and the tuning slide ferrule?
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
How so?
If the 2 assemblies are the same length, intonation shouldn't change.
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious about this. I've definitely noticed that pulling my F slide way out changes the way the open horn plays. Pulling it out entirely does too. I'm not sure it changes the intonation, but it does something to the feel/slot.hornbuilder wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:07 pmHow so?
If the 2 assemblies are the same length, intonation shouldn't change.
Kris Danielsen D.M.A.
Westfield State University and Keene State College
Lecturer of Low Brass
Principal Trombone, New England Repertory Orchestra
2nd Trombone, Glens Falls Symphony
Westfield State University and Keene State College
Lecturer of Low Brass
Principal Trombone, New England Repertory Orchestra
2nd Trombone, Glens Falls Symphony
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
I could see pulling the F slide changing the balance of the horn, which may change mouthpiece pressure/alignment/angle, which may change the resulting sound/"feel" of the horn.
Taking it out completely does similar, but also lightens the horn...
Taking it out completely does similar, but also lightens the horn...
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
wouldn't a rotor section necessarily be a bit longer than a straight gooseneck, with the deviation into the valve ports?
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
It also wouldn't have the same taper shape as a neckpipe.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
Yep it's the same. I'm really not sure what's causing it, but at the same time I don't use it enough for it to bug mehornbuilder wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:06 pm
That's crazy!!
Are they the same length? The distance between the end of the handslide receiver and the tuning slide ferrule?
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
That was my thought, even if you have axial flow valves, there is a bit more length.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
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Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
Even an axial valve, with the slight deflection of the main port, is less than 1/4" longer. Meaning the potential tuning slide pull would be @1/8".
It depends on the valve type and gooseneck design as to how much difference there is in the taper.
It depends on the valve type and gooseneck design as to how much difference there is in the taper.
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
What about Shires large tenor tuning slides, the standard taper puts high D in 1st position, while the X taper makes the tuning more in line with Bach instruments. It seems unlikely to me that only the length of the tuning slide is what makes the difference there, or that the tuning slides are more than a negligible amount difference in length.
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
In that instance it is not length that makes the difference. It is the diameter of the crook at a specific nodal point.
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
I find this too. There's even a subtle difference if I pull the F slide about 2 inches, as I do when I need to play good low Cs on my single valve section. I've wondered if moving or adding a brace to the valve section would even it out.Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:44 pm I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious about this. I've definitely noticed that pulling my F slide way out changes the way the open horn plays. Pulling it out entirely does too. I'm not sure it changes the intonation, but it does something to the feel/slot.
Gabe Rice
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
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Hartford Symphony Orchestra
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Bass Trombonist
Hartford Symphony Orchestra
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
I’ve always thought a Gb valve (instead of F) would be worth exploring, but worried that it would have problems for this reason. Gb makes a lot of sense to me.GabrielRice wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:53 amI find this too. There's even a subtle difference if I pull the F slide about 2 inches, as I do when I need to play good low Cs on my single valve section. I've wondered if moving or adding a brace to the valve section would even it out.Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:44 pm I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious about this. I've definitely noticed that pulling my F slide way out changes the way the open horn plays. Pulling it out entirely does too. I'm not sure it changes the intonation, but it does something to the feel/slot.
Kris Danielsen D.M.A.
Westfield State University and Keene State College
Lecturer of Low Brass
Principal Trombone, New England Repertory Orchestra
2nd Trombone, Glens Falls Symphony
Westfield State University and Keene State College
Lecturer of Low Brass
Principal Trombone, New England Repertory Orchestra
2nd Trombone, Glens Falls Symphony
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
Actually, there was a group proposing the attachment be in G (there is actually a Holton trombone with this setup). There are some advantages to the G attachment -- even more than the Gb attachment.Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:24 am [...
I’ve always thought a Gb valve (instead of F) would be worth exploring, but worried that it would have problems for this reason. Gb makes a lot of sense to me.
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
I find that pitch rises as mouthpiece cup volume decreases.
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Re: Do mpcs, leadpipes etc. affect intonation?
I noticed the same thing with my single valve section when pulling for an in-tune low C. It also had a tendency to slip back in when I did that because the slide was generally a little loose. Lou at Virtuosity fixed the slipping problem and now the difference in response up around 5th partial and above is lessened significantly.Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 14, 2022 3:44 pm I don't know the answer, but I've always been curious about this. I've definitely noticed that pulling my F slide way out changes the way the open horn plays. Pulling it out entirely does too. I'm not sure it changes the intonation, but it does something to the feel/slot.
Gabe Rice
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Bass Trombonist
Hartford Symphony Orchestra
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Bass Trombonist
Hartford Symphony Orchestra
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra