TromboneChat

Wessex recently displayed a new bass trombone (the PBF565).  I didn't see it in person, but they posted a picture of it on Facebook.  Chris Stearn, is this the new bass trombone you designed?  Any additional details you could share?



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156008399327790&set=p.10156008399327790&type=3&theater

Quote from: mjgeorge on Jan 13, 2018, 12:23PMWessex recently displayed a new bass trombone (the PBF565).  I didn't see it in person, but they posted a picture of it on Facebook.  Chris Stearn, is this the new bass trombone you designed?  Any additional details you could share?



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10156008399327790&set=p.10156008399327790&type=3&theater

Yes, that is indeed the new bass trombone. The prototype was built up by me. I have tried two pre production examples built at the factory and they were really excellent. The brief was to design a bass in the modern American style and I think this ticks the boxes !! Blows and sounds well when put against anything, not just the intermediate market.

Chris Stearn

Price?

How's it stack up against the 562? Or is it a reconfiguration/redesign with the same specs?

I may pick one up in a couple years.

Quote from: davdud101 on Jan 14, 2018, 09:56AMHow's it stack up against the 562? Or is it a reconfiguration/redesign with the same specs?

I may pick one up in a couple years.

Dave,

The 562 is more of a King 7B/Benge 290 derivative.
This horn is more of a Yamaha 830 derivative.

If, by specs, you mean bore size, it's a bass trombone.  It's got a big bore.
If you mean bell shape, I'll bet the bell shapes are pretty true to the source models (although I wouldn't be too surprised if Chris had a hand in refining the bell on the new one.... among other things.)

If you mean material choices, safe to say there will be different materials in slide and bell.  It does not, for example, look like the Mack/Jin Bao TB831L.  I doubt the bell is rose brass, or the outer slide nickel silver.  And I can see that the lead pipe is removable. 

Looks like more of a TB831L redesigned to fix the misses on that horn.  Can't see the linkage side in the photo, but it looks like the second valve goes the opposite direction from the TB831L, which is a very good thing.

I find my TB831L vastly better behaved than my Benge was.  I could not produce the sheer volume of undistorted sound I could on the Benge, but I have NO call for that kind of playing any more (thankfully!) For everything else, my TB831L does the job, and is easier to play and hold.  I would bet good money that the changes Chris has made in this horn just make a good thing much, much better.

And you'll likely be able to practice more, and want to practice more, with this than with a less performant horn (so buying sooner rather than later is a GOOD thing unless debt is involved.)

Way more effort went into this than a tweak of an existing model. First I got them to copy a frankenbone I had built. I got that back and asked for every part they currently made for any bass model to be sent. I then messed around. The result is not based on any one horn... it contains parts they have made before and parts they have never made before. It is unique and pretty big in the bell section. 562 bore slide.

Chris Stearn

Quote from: blast on Jan 14, 2018, 03:14PMWay more effort went into this than a tweak of an existing model. First I got them to copy a frankenbone I had built. I got that back and asked for every part they currently made for any bass model to be sent. I then messed around. The result is not based on any one horn... it contains parts they have made before and parts they have never made before. It is unique and pretty big in the bell section. 562 bore slide.

Chris Stearn

Any idea if they'll show at the Eastern Trombone Workshop this year?  Would love to try one out!

And thanks for the info.  My guess fell further short than I dared to hope!

Ahh, okay, thanks for expanding, Dave and Chris! Had no idea. Looks at the very least like a nice horn 

Chris because you were directly involved in this I'm definitely curious.

Me too.

Remember gentlemen that I was asked to design a modern style bass and those of a  more traditional inclination will probably not like it so much. There was a Holton 185 clone that was not right... that is still in my workshop awaiting development. One day.....

Chris Stearn

Quote from: blast on Jan 15, 2018, 12:28PMRemember gentlemen that I was asked to design a modern style bass and those of a  more traditional inclination will probably not like it so much. There was a Holton 185 clone that was not right... that is still in my workshop awaiting development. One day.....

Chris Stearn
Understood but the fact that you designed and were the primary player on the project I figure some "good stuff" had to find its way in there.

Indeed, I think this is a very good trombone or I would not have signed it off and allowed my name to be attached to it. Just saying that it is new school, not old school. I would love to get a really nice old school bass together and have not lost the chance.
Let's see how this first one is received.

Chris Stearn

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 15, 2018, 01:19PMUnderstood but the fact that you designed and were the primary player on the project I figure some "good stuff" had to find its way in there.

Ditto here too

Quote from: blast on Jan 15, 2018, 02:28PMIndeed, I think this is a very good trombone or I would not have signed it off and allowed my name to be attached to it. Just saying that it is new school, not old school. I would love to get a really nice old school bass together and have not lost the chance.
Let's see how this first one is received.

Chris Stearn

Dumb question:
What does that mean, a new school bass vs. an old school bass?
What are the defining characteristics of each?
If I had an unidentifiable bass trombone in my hands, how would I decide which category it fit into?

Quote from: LowrBrass on Jan 15, 2018, 03:59PMDumb question:
What does that mean, a new school bass vs. an old school bass?
What are the defining characteristics of each?
If I had an unidentifiable bass trombone in my hands, how would I decide which category it fit into?


Not a dumb question at all. Modern American style.... think Edwards, Shires , Yeo designed Yamahas.... trombones that work well with big mouthpieces (though they can work with smaller) and produce a very big, projecting sound. The classic bass is more the old Conn and Holton style .... often happier with the smaller mouthpieces, able to cut through when required.
That's a start. Others may chime in.

Chris Stearn

I have this image of blast, dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi (Sir Alec Guinness version), holding a Conn 70H and saying: "An elegant instrument... for a more civilized age."

Quote from: JohnL on Jan 16, 2018, 11:01AMI have this image of blast, dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi (Sir Alec Guinness version), holding a Conn 70H and saying: "An elegant instrument... for a more civilized age."

 

Quote from: JohnL on Jan 16, 2018, 11:01AMI have this image of blast, dressed as Obi-Wan Kenobi (Sir Alec Guinness version), holding a Conn 70H and saying: "An elegant instrument... for a more civilized age."

I'm pretty sure he said something like that to me when I was messing around with his collection at the Birmingham ITF 

Help you, I can..... 

Obi-Stearn

Can anyone offer examples to listen to of modern American bass sound versus classic bass sound? Preferably YouTube.
I am needing to define my sound concept. I bet the community band and the big Band I play my Duo Gravis in would prefer a classic sound. Thank you.

Quote from: blast on Jan 16, 2018, 08:09AMNot a dumb question at all. Modern American style.... think Edwards, Shires , Yeo designed Yamahas.... trombones that work well with big mouthpieces (though they can work with smaller) and produce a very big, projecting sound. The classic bass is more the old Conn and Holton style .... often happier with the smaller mouthpieces, able to cut through when required.
That's a start. Others may chime in.

Chris Stearn

IMO the problem with the "modern" B/Tbn set-up is one of musical context, and it's similar to an often discussed topic, which is, how welcome is a .547 tenor horn amongst .500's in a big band section?

I don't often play in BB's that often but my recent experience has been that there's a big disconnect between the B/Tbn an the tenors. Almost as though the bass isn't carrying its weight in the mid range, noticeably when playing unison octaves. These are good musicians, one has a good career in a service band and the other is a respected regional player, ie, he gets the good gigs..

From a practical point of view, if I were to book a Tbn section and couldn't find a bass tbn who had a "vintage" horn mentality, I'd rather have a good .547 tenor with a large m/p who understands the required tonal concept.

 

Carry on..   

Quote from: Eyedoc on Jan 16, 2018, 11:41PMCan anyone offer examples to listen to of modern American bass sound versus classic bass sound? Preferably YouTube.
I am needing to define my sound concept. I bet the community band and the big Band I play my Duo Gravis in would prefer a classic sound. Thank you.

First off, a Community Band really doesn't care.  As long as you can play the part they won't differentiate between a "classic" bass and a "modern" bass.

Big Bands, especially non-professional ones, generally are very eclectic as well.  I play in a Shriner Big Band where the 3 upper voices are Bach 36B and Bach 42B trombones (the 36B is on 3rd) and I play a King 7B (is that modern or classic?). 

I see similar problems in many quintets, where the BBb monster tuba is just too big to balance the rest of the group.  It sounds like 4 voices and this tuba.  A smaller tuba tends to blend better.  I played an F and it was a really good fit.  For that matter, a bass trombone on the bottom sometimes works well.

Quote from: Pre59 on Jan 17, 2018, 01:51AMIMO the problem with the "modern" B/Tbn set-up is one of musical context, and it's similar to an often discussed topic, which is, how welcome is a .547 tenor horn amongst .500's in a big band section?

I don't often play in BB's that often but my recent experience has been that there's a big disconnect between the B/Tbn an the tenors. Almost as though the bass isn't carrying its weight in the mid range, noticeably when playing unison octaves. These are good musicians, one has a good career in a service band and the other is a respected regional player, ie, he gets the good gigs..

From a practical point of view, if I were to book a Tbn section and couldn't find a bass tbn who had a "vintage" horn mentality, I'd rather have a good .547 tenor with a large m/p who understands the required tonal concept.

 

Carry on..   


Whilst out walking the dog, I remembered that a while back I subbed at a Sinatra tribute concert at a local theatre, and the 4th tbn DID play a George Roberts feature from one of the GR albums on an 88H.

Quote from: Eyedoc on Jan 16, 2018, 11:41PMCan anyone offer examples to listen to of modern American bass sound versus classic bass sound? Preferably YouTube.
I am needing to define my sound concept. I bet the community band and the big Band I play my Duo Gravis in would prefer a classic sound. Thank you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bvI3Uexm9c

Quote from: hassein on Jan 17, 2018, 04:16PMhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bvI3Uexm9c

Is this "old school"? = better suited to a smaller mouthpiece?
(Smaller? Brighter? Crunchier?)

Do you have a similarly-arranged link to a "modern" bass trombone sound/feature, for comparison?

(Thanks for this link!... once I figure out what I'm listening to  )

Quote from: LowrBrass on Jan 17, 2018, 04:51PMIs this "old school"? = better suited to a smaller mouthpiece?
(Smaller? Brighter? Crunchier?)

Do you have a similarly-arranged link to a "modern" bass trombone sound/feature, for comparison?

(Thanks for this link!... once I figure out what I'm listening to  )

That should be Tony Studd... he did most of their recordings.
I don't look at that as brighter or smaller... I look at that sound as interesting and rich. I consider many modern sounds as dull and diffuse... but that is often more due to the mouthpiece and the mindset than the instrument. Just my biased UK take on it.

Chris Stearn

On this recording  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bvI3Uexm9c  TS sounds like he’s playing “out” and from a distance.

On this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3PFX8aCvj8 he’s up close and on the mic.

https://www.discogs.com/Kai-Windings-Trombones-And-Orchestra-And-Orchestra-Kai-Olé/release/8430632

I owned this album in the ’70’s and bought it during a long tour of the US, have just grabbed it again on Amazon. Oh Joy!!

Quote from: blast on Jan 18, 2018, 12:20AMThat should be Tony Studd... he did most of their recordings.
I don't look at that as brighter or smaller... I look at that sound as interesting and rich. I consider many modern sounds as dull and diffuse... but that is often more due to the mouthpiece and the mindset than the instrument. Just my biased UK take on it.

Chris Stearn

This reminds me of speaker discussions back when that sort of thing was more popular.  Some folks kept trying to insist they got more bass from their 8" woofers than others got from 15" woofers.  In reality, the 8" was physically incapable of providing more bass. Instead, it punched up an octave above.  The first group was mistaking the "punch" in that octave for greater bass.  Even at lower sound pressure levels where the 8" COULD match the 15" for power in the lower octave, the added punch an octave up made them identify the smaller unit as louder.

IMHO the sad reality is that many modern sounds are lacking the overtones that make  the "older" sound seem "bright" to them.  And IMHO color (or colour) and richness are EXACTLY what is missing in the more modern sound.  Along with that I hear a reluctance to articulate the beginnings of notes, unless the notes are extremely fast, in which case there is no tone, but just articulation.

All venting aside, is there any hope that this more "modern" Wessex can produce a "modern" sound that retains at least a little interest?

Actually it is Paul Faulise on the recording I posted. Dick Hixon did the earlier Elgart recordings-Paul the later. Paul told me this directly-

Quote from: hassein on Jan 18, 2018, 05:32AMActually it is Paul Faulise on the recording I posted. Dick Hixon did the earlier Elgart recordings-Paul the later. Paul told me this directly-

http://www.trombone-usa.com/faulise_paul_bio.htm

Quote from: blast on Jan 18, 2018, 12:20AMThat should be Tony Studd... he did most of their recordings.
I don't look at that as brighter or smaller... I look at that sound as interesting and rich. I consider many modern sounds as dull and diffuse... but that is often more due to the mouthpiece and the mindset than the instrument. Just my biased UK take on it.

Chris Stearn


Not meaning to hijack the thread (I find this particular topic of trombone sounds interesting whenever it comes up), when you say you find a lot of modern sounds dull and diffuse, are you talking about Professional players, Ameteur/students or both? You of course dont need to name anyone specifically, but I am curious as to what kind of players are being included in that description.

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 18, 2018, 06:13AM
Not meaning to hijack the thread (I find this particular topic of trombone sounds interesting whenever it comes up), when you say you find a lot of modern sounds dull and diffuse, are you talking about Professional players, Ameteur/students or both? You of course dont need to name anyone specifically, but I am curious as to what kind of players are being included in that description.

Asking a question is not hijacking the thread. Remember that statements made about individual sounds are based on perspective. The sound each person has in their head is what's used to make a statement like that. I know several professional bass trombonists that have achieved great success who have, to my ears, the sound that Chris is speaking of. Depending on who you've listened to and aspired to be will affect the sound that you achieve and desire. Right or wrong? Not really. Preference.

Quote from: hassein on Jan 18, 2018, 05:32AMActually it is Paul Faulise on the recording I posted. Dick Hixon did the earlier Elgart recordings-Paul the later. Paul told me this directly-

Ohhh !!!  My bad.... I should check more carefully. Great playing, whoever it is.

Chris Stearn

Thanks for the responses.
Sorry to keep resurrecting this-- still struggling.


@Pre59 -
Thank you for the links. That's a neat comparison of a single player close-mic'ed vs. not, and I feel more educated for having heard it.
Is that the difference between an "old-school" sound and a "modern" sound?
Or is the far-from-mic version really bringing out the horn's crunchy overtones, while the close-mic version...?


If not (or even if so, just for another point of comparison!), is there a[nother] "modern American" bass trombone sound clip anywhere on YouTube that we can hear?
Or names/albums of old-school players vs. modern players I could look into?


Quote from: wgwbassbone on Jan 18, 2018, 06:21AM...Depending on who you've listened to and aspired to be will affect the sound that you achieve and desire. Right or wrong? Not really. Preference.

...is this still about "old-school" vs. "modern" equipment, or old-school vs. modern approach?
Or are you including equipment as an integral part of a bass trombonist's approach?
(Seems to me it'd just be a "right tool for the job" kind of thing...?)

This different school idea will be seen as quite subtle by most people. With professionals it is an issue that they sometimes discuss, though most are too busy to bother and just play the way they do.
It is easy to settle on commercial playing to represent the classic approach but there are orchestral and ensemble examples out there. Listen to Ray Premru with the PJBE. Bob Hughes with the RSNO,PO and LSO. That style is still the main approach in the UK.

Quote from: blast on Yesterday at 01:17 AMThis different school idea will be seen as quite subtle by most people. With professionals it is an issue that they sometimes discuss, though most are too busy to bother and just play the way they do.
It is easy to settle on commercial playing to represent the classic approach but there are orchestral and ensemble examples out there. Listen to Ray Premru with the PJBE. Bob Hughes with the RSNO,PO and LSO. That style is still the main approach in the UK.

Bob Hughes playing on the Alpine Symphony shows the sound that is possible on a 2g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCZzxhM0YLw

Here's a nice Manny Albam arrangement with Tony Studd coming in around 1:00, and a nice feature at the end.  All with a single trigger 72H, right?  He sounds great.  There's a whole world in his sound.  Popping without blowing the roof off. 

Ok, I'll be the a-hole who asks - can you give a link to a more "modern" sound?

I know at festivals I grate at the tbone choir bass bones just seeing how loud they can play whole notes on the fundamental. But that's a maturity issue, not a hardware problem. I just need to hear two different sounds for comparison sake. I don't want to label anyone as a "bad" player or tasteless or anything, I just want to see what the two supposed bookends of the spectrum are.

Quote from: ntap on Yesterday at 07:01 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCZzxhM0YLw

Here's a nice Manny Albam arrangement with Tony Studd coming in around 1:00, and a nice feature at the end.  All with a single trigger 72H, right?  He sounds great.  There's a whole world in his sound.  Popping without blowing the roof off. 


I have owned this album since 1968!  This is, by far, one of the most definitive bass trombone sounds ever in commercial music!  Tony Studd is right there ini the pantheon with George Roberts, Dick Lieb, Dick Hixon, and Paul Falise.  When I play commercial bass trombone this IS the sound I try to emulate!!

Bravo on this find!!

Quote from: jackbird on Yesterday at 07:49 AMOk, I'll be the a-hole who asks - can you give a link to a more "modern" sound?

I know at festivals I grate at the tbone choir bass bones just seeing how loud they can play whole notes on the fundamental. But that's a maturity issue, not a hardware problem. I just need to hear two different sounds for comparison sake. I don't want to label anyone as a "bad" player or tasteless or anything, I just want to see what the two supposed bookends of the spectrum are.

You may not get an example that can adequately demonstrate it.
I guess if you able to imagine the sound you would expect to get from an old Conn 62H on the mouthpiece that works best with it, then compare that with what you might expect from a dual bore Edwards with Thayers, with the type of mouthpiece that suits that instrument best, then you might be part way towards your answer.
The instruments probably need a different approach, and how you play each instrument will determine your sound.
I guess its like singers. Take Sinatra v Buble. Theu sing the same stuff in the same style but Sinatra is definitely old school. His sound, his interpretation, his presentation, all very different to Buble.

Quote from: vegasbound on Yesterday at 04:26 AMBob Hughes playing on the Alpine Symphony shows the sound that is possible on a 2g

Oft quoted recording. I should credit Derek Bishop who was the other bass trombone on that recording. Conn 83H and a 2G ... but it's about the player not the horn.

Chris Stearn

Quote from: blast on Yesterday at 09:56 AM...but it's about the player not the horn.

Chris Stearn

Thats the reality we all have to face sooner or later ...  
Chris, do you have plans on making another trombone with more "Conn Elkhart vibes"? Could be interesting but its not easy since many have tried?

Leif

Quote from: blast on Yesterday at 09:56 AMOft quoted recording. I should credit Derek Bishop who was the other bass trombone on that recording. Conn 83H and a 2G ... but it's about the player not the horn.

Chris Stearn

In Washington DC we used have a radio station called WGMS that played classical music all the time.  In the late 90s I was driving along listening to this station when I came upon an orchestral piece that moved me so much I had to pull over and listen to the whole thing to make sure I found out who the composer was and what orchestra.  The whole thing was great but what really stood out was a bass trombonist who absolutely took over.

It ended up being Kalinnikov #1 being performed by the Scottish National Orchestra under Neeme Jarvi.  Was Bob Hughes the bass on that recording?

In anycase I bought a lot of Scottish National Orchestra recordings after that!

The Alpine, Heldenleben, Don Juan, Tod und verklarung with the Scottish National orchestra is on iTunes. You dont believe it before you listen it! I bet Bob Hughes use the 60h on this? Anyway, all the brass, the hole orchestra is special on this recording. The oboe player...amazing. 

Leif

Bob Hughes was most likely the bass on all those recordings. Also listen to the amazing trumpet of John Gracie.

Quote from: Pre59 on Jan 18, 2018, 02:19AM
On this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3PFX8aCvj8 he’s up close and on the mic.

https://www.discogs.com/Kai-Windings-Trombones-And-Orchestra-And-Orchestra-Kai-Olé/release/8430632

I owned this album in the ’70’s and bought it during a long tour of the US, have just grabbed it again on Amazon. Oh Joy!!

The CD arrived today and has 2 Bass tbns, Tony Stud and George West. Anyone know anything about him?

(A 2017 reissue by the way.)

Quote from: CSO on Yesterday at 10:15 AMIn Washington DC we used have a radio station called WGMS that played classical music all the time.  In the late 90s I was driving along listening to this station when I came upon an orchestral piece that moved me so much I had to pull over and listen to the whole thing to make sure I found out who the composer was and what orchestra.  The whole thing was great but what really stood out was a bass trombonist who absolutely took over.

It ended up being Kalinnikov #1 being performed by the Scottish National Orchestra under Neeme Jarvi.  Was Bob Hughes the bass on that recording?

In anycase I bought a lot of Scottish National Orchestra recordings after that!

I have the same recording.  I bought it after hearing them playing it live in the Usher Hall.  Lance Green, Brian Free and Bob Hughes I think.

Ronnie

Quote from: CSO on Yesterday at 10:15 AMIn Washington DC we used have a radio station called WGMS that played classical music all the time.  In the late 90s I was driving along listening to this station when I came upon an orchestral piece that moved me so much I had to pull over and listen to the whole thing to make sure I found out who the composer was and what orchestra.  The whole thing was great but what really stood out was a bass trombonist who absolutely took over.

It ended up being Kalinnikov #1 being performed by the Scottish National Orchestra under Neeme Jarvi.  Was Bob Hughes the bass on that recording?

In anycase I bought a lot of Scottish National Orchestra recordings after that!

I have the same recording.  I bought it after hearing them playing it live in the Usher Hall.  Lance Green, Brian Free and Bob Hughes I think.

Ronnie