TromboneChat

Interesting. It says its ended. He called me today to come play test it and make sure it is in good condition (I'm sure it is, he just has some shoulder problems). I was planning on going to his place this weekend. I wonder who nabbed it

Quote from: Bmalta on Feb 18, 2016, 08:22PMInteresting. It says its ended. He called me today to come play test it and make sure it is in good condition (I'm sure it is, he just has some shoulder problems). I was planning on going to his place this weekend. I wonder who nabbed it
I know.  I was looking forward to bidding on Williams Bass that I could mod guilt free.

Cheers,
Andy

I don't know the production numbers on these trombones. Earl was contracted out to build the slides. Does anybody have an idea of what they go for?

Thanks,
Harold

I don't have any idea how short or long that project was. That was with the old H & A Selmer Company, not the company we know today. I have seen advertising in the early 1940's, I don't have that info in front of me. The don't seem to sell for very much. Couple hundred buck for them at best

Here's an unusual one. Seems to be a very early model 4

7 1/4" bell, .485" bore

Just finished restoring it. No serial number. The bell section was unfinished when I received it, and I can say fairly confidently that this bell section could be NOS. The slide was also unfinished: didn't have a water key or hole (I installed a modern one) and was rough soldered together and not cleaned up/buffed. I was told, that this trombone hung for many years in Earl's shop.

Thought you'd all get a kick out of it now that we've got it in playing condition 

Oh now you've done it.

I'm supposed to close on a house next week and now I'm gonna have to take out ANOTHER mortgage. 

Oh man.  I've wanted one of those for ages!  If it plays anywhere near as well as John Noxon's (best horn I ever played), then it's a gem. 

Quote from: Slipmo on May 07, 2016, 01:41AMdidn't have a water key or hole (I installed a modern one)A Williams of that vintage wouldn't have had Earl's patented water key; it you want an authentic look, you just need to reshape the water key lever a bit and solder a ball on the end.

The bore should be .490 for a model 4, not .485.

Dave, I silver plated my. It had be refinished twice. Once by Billy an once by me. With just a tiny bit of metal back on the horn it plays about 100% better than when you played it! It's unbelievable!

John,
what's your take on this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Earl-Williams-Burbank-Model-10-Double-Rotor-Professional-Bass-Trombone-lot-186-/252362516856?hash=item3ac1fa6978:g:sdYAAOSwujFXF-FF

Looks like Koda...

T.

Quote from: tsmart on May 11, 2016, 11:20AMJohn,
what's your take on this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Earl-Williams-Burbank-Model-10-Double-Rotor-Professional-Bass-Trombone-lot-186-/252362516856?hash=item3ac1fa6978:g:sdYAAOSwujFXF-FF

Looks like Koda...That's Koda, all right.

It's the same horn that was pulled from eBay back in February (see postings earlier in this thread). Maybe Koda convinced the seller to do a deal outside eBay?

It'll be interesting to see if Koda gets any bites. New pics, new description, looks like maybe he polished it up a bit. No indication of whether he had any work done to it (or if any was actually needed).

Quote from: JohnL on May 11, 2016, 12:02PMThat's Koda, all right.

It's the same horn that was pulled from eBay back in February (see postings earlier in this thread). Maybe Koda convinced the seller to do a deal outside eBay?

It'll be interesting to see if Koda gets any bites. New pics, new description, looks like maybe he polished it up a bit. No indication of whether he had any work done to it (or if any was actually needed).

It was re-listed and sold normally. Listing is gone from time now, but it was allowed to finish normally (second time it was listed).


As I recall it was $3500 plus it had an extra Bach 50 slide that Koda sold separately.

So, to what do we owe the $1K upcharge?
Andy

Beautiful axe but I start to wonder if/fear that these horns are turning into collector's items, especially 8s and 10s. 

If someone buys it because it says "Earl Williams Burbank, CA" on it, and not to play it every day, that to me seems a shame.  If it's priced where that's the ONLY way it's going to be bought, that to me is an even bigger shame.

I'm not making any comment about that listing.  If it's the one, $4500 is a fair price for a bass bone.  I'm just saying, we're flirting with that line. 

Quote from: elmsandr on May 11, 2016, 12:10PMIt was re-listed and sold normally. Listing is gone from time now, but it was allowed to finish normally (second time it was listed).Not gone from time, just moved into the shadows a bit:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/172113559611

Here's the listing from February:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/172103333945

As to the $1,000 price increase? Hard to say. It was out there on eBay for a week at $3,500 and received only one bid - and that was with an additional slide. As I said - it'll be interesting to see how that one plays out. Will having a more polished listing and a more substantial history as a seller be enough to generate bids at that higher price?

I do find it slightly troubling that the current listing makes no mention of the Reynolds valve section.

Quote from: JohnL on May 11, 2016, 01:31PM
I do find it slightly troubling that the current listing makes no mention of the Reynolds valve section.

That's what I was looking at.
And he mentioned only 12 to exist... I think John Noxon said only 10 - and pretty sure this is not one of them.
Frankenbone? Looks like it.
Worth $4,500? (not to me, I do not think it's the real deal)

T.

Quote from: tsmart on May 12, 2016, 05:17AMThat's what I was looking at.
And he mentioned only 12 to exist... I think John Noxon said only 10 - and pretty sure this is not one of them.
Frankenbone? Looks like it.
Worth $4,500? (not to me, I do not think it's the real deal)

T.
Dunno, I think that count depends on whether or not you count partials (bells) mounted to other horns.  Either way, close enough here.

I have no knowledge that this isn't one of them, it came from California, and there is at least one person here that knew the first seller.  Seems to have some lineage, albeit incomplete.

I darned near picked it up at $3500.  Figured I could use or sell the Bach slide, but I would probably have swapped out the valve section to something more modern/authentic....  So I decided I didn't need a world class horn that I would end up spending $5000 on to play in a community band a few times.  I'd love to see this thing get around to a few masters and hear what it would do in the right hands.

Cheers,
Andy

Quote from: tsmart on May 12, 2016, 05:17AMFrankenbone? Looks like it.I don't think it's a frankenbone as such. Pretty much all of the parts except the valve section look like Williams.

Quote from: elmsandr on May 12, 2016, 08:49AMI would probably have swapped out the valve section to something more modern/authentic.... 
Agreed.
I think John Duda, along with Noxon - could put it back as close to original.
That's the way I would like it myself...
The Reynolds valve - that devalues it some IMHO.
And the fact Koda is making $1K (PLUS the Bach slide he kept/sold separately) - devalues it even more. 

T.

You mean PLUS the Bach slide.

But only if it sells.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on May 12, 2016, 02:53PMYou mean PLUS the Bach slide.

But only if it sells.
FIFY 

 

T.

a pristine  LA  6    is about to  change hands
 ZAC LEE    probably     but repe  really wants   and is trying to raise  the $$$$$$$
 by selling a MV 12 standard  --offered 17  --dunno  current  value
the LA  IS AT  28 

I have a couple of Williams model 8 horns. I am gonna let go of one of them. I have already sold both Earl model 8's and have a Bob model 8 I am gonna sell. Its a Burbank horn nickel crook, round not dual radius crooks. It is a lovely horn, plays well slots well and has that typical dark Williams sound! It has a typical fantastic Williams slide!

If anyone is interested please let me know!

hey  john  benn said you were looking for a bach 8 mpc==i have a  ny  faded gold plate
---------
and you may be  visiting   this are  sometime 
----------
also  williams news  newell sheridan  replaced  the worn out[somebody played it]  on his williams  bass  reynolds  --he asked for  parts
well i found  not one  but TWO  dependent reynolds  -bob hester took his apart cleaned it all up and newell had it abt  5 seconds before
putting  it bach together  ///THEN   a forum member asked if i had any  parts for his old  reynolds bass --ha ha call newell
=======
meanwhile i there are 4  model 6s avvailable -- earl and  jay
AND  a  4  will  probably be  coming up  available




Quote from: jnoxon on Aug 14, 2016, 04:03PMI have a couple of Williams model 8 horns. I am gonna let go of one of them. I have already sold both Earl model 8's and have a Bob model 8 I am gonna sell. Its a Burbank horn nickel crook, round not dual radius crooks. It is a lovely horn, plays well slots well and has that typical dark Williams sound! It has a typical fantastic Williams slide!

If anyone is interested please let me know!

Actually an Old New York 9 is what I would like to find. We were going on a road trip but it got sidelined just after it started. So we will be back there prolly next year around March. Hope we can stop by and see you! Gonna be in that general area of Illinois!

Quote from: dj kennedy on Jun 19, 2016, 09:09PMa pristine  LA  6    is about to  change hands
 ZAC LEE    probably     but repe  really wants   and is trying to raise  the $$$$$$$
 by selling a MV 12 standard  --offered 17  --dunno  current  value
the LA  IS AT  28 

I'm possibly interested, got a contact for it?

another rare WILLIAMS IS ABOUT TO  TO CHANGE HANDS
  A MODEL 6  L.A.    SET  PRICE BY WILLIAMS  CLUB  2600
   ADDITIONAL  PROVENANCE--STAN KENTON  //original case//trombone stand/mute in  super crisp original paint /mpc
     and  documentation  ADD  250
=======================================================
 going to  MEGAN  -a player in the RINGLING RED   UNIT 
-------
news travels fast      --i got a  messenger from BRETT BARLOW   --and the seller  within  minutes
--------------------------------------------------
   the WILLIAMS CLUB  and this thread  are the  most assured  source  for  buyers  and sellers  of these wonderful instruments 
some  buyers have overpaid  for  the  older   models    in  momentary  loss  of  all caution in  emotional states  of  enchantment
  only to awake   with  a faded  dream    --a  brazen goddess    whose    expensive  kiss   left   wanting
    an ephemeral  hope  dashed  upon the  rocks   like a rudderless   sailing ship
----------
   of course  there  have been certain  oldies  untried silveren     bell tuning  lovlies  retubed  by  john sandhagen 
  for troy that went  as a complete  bargain    total  incredible   deal
 sold cheep  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--------- some come  for advice  thinking they have   model  4   but  is   not    a model    4 

Quote from: dj kennedy on Jun 19, 2016, 09:09PMa pristine  LA  6    is about to  change hands
 ZAC LEE    probably     but repe  really wants   and is trying to raise  the $$$$$$$
 by selling a MV 12 standard  --offered 17  --dunno  current  value
the LA  IS AT  28 

Coming my way, thank you BiggieSmalls. It will get some exercise with me on the road.
Can't wait to compare it to the Minick.

another rare WILLIAMS IS ABOUT TO  TO CHANGE HANDS
  A MODEL 6  L.A.    SET  PRICE BY WILLIAMS  CLUB  2600
   ADDITIONAL  PROVENANCE--STAN KENTON  //original case//trombone stand/mute in  super crisp original paint /mpc
     and  documentation  ADD  250
=======================================================
 going to  MEGAN  -a player in the RINGLING RED   UNIT  
-------
news travels fast      --i got a  messenger from BRETT BARLOW   --and the seller  within  minutes
--------------------------------------------------
   the WILLIAMS CLUB  and this thread  are the  most assured  source  for  buyers  and sellers  of these wonderful instruments  
some  buyers have overpaid  for  the  older   models    in  momentary  loss  of  all caution in  emotional states  of  enchantment
  only to awake   with  a faded  dream    --a  brazen goddess    whose    expensive  kiss   left   wanting
    an ephemeral  hope  dashed  upon the  rocks   like a rudderless   sailing ship
----------
   of course  there  have been certain  oldies  untried silveren     bell tuning  lovlies  retubed  by  john sandhagen  
  for troy that went  as a complete  bargain    total  incredible   deal
 sold cheep  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--------- some come  for advice  thinking they have   model  4   but  is   not    a model    4  

Quote from: dj kennedy on Sep 10, 2016, 05:09AManother rare WILLIAMS IS ABOUT TO  TO CHANGE HANDS
  A MODEL 6  L.A.    SET  PRICE BY WILLIAMS  CLUB  2600
   ADDITIONAL  PROVENANCE--STAN KENTON  //original case//trombone stand/mute in  super crisp original paint /mpc
     and  documentation  ADD  250
=======================================================
 going to  MEGAN  -a player in the RINGLING RED   UNIT  
-------
news travels fast      --i got a  messenger from BRETT BARLOW   --and the seller  within  minutes
--------------------------------------------------
   the WILLIAMS CLUB  and this thread  are the  most assured  source  for  buyers  and sellers  of these wonderful instruments  
some  buyers have overpaid  for  the  older   models    in  momentary  loss  of  all caution in  emotional states  of  enchantment
  only to awake   with  a faded  dream    --a  brazen goddess    whose    expensive  kiss   left   wanting
    an ephemeral  hope  dashed  upon the  rocks   like a rudderless   sailing ship
----------
   of course  there  have been certain  oldies  untried silveren     bell tuning  lovlies  retubed  by  john sandhagen  
  for troy that went  as a complete  bargain    total  incredible   deal
 sold cheep  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--------- some come  for advice  thinking they have   model  4   but  is   not    a model    4  

"News travels fast" but hasn't it been for sale for a few months now?? People can only stand temptation for so long

Everything these days leaves an "expensive kiss". Whether it'll "leave me wanting" or not I'll know soon...and if it does you'll probably see it here again

Off to work!

 
yeah  within minutes  !!!!!!!
--------
i had  an la    with patch on gooseneck 




Quote from: Jhereg on Sep 10, 2016, 06:47AM"News travels fast" but hasn't it been for sale for a few months now?? People can only stand temptation for so long

Everything these days leaves an "expensive kiss". Whether it'll "leave me wanting" or not I'll know soon...and if it does you'll probably see it here again

Off to work!

Quote from: dj kennedy on Sep 11, 2016, 10:40AM
yeah  within minutes  !!!!!!!
--------
i had  an la    with patch on gooseneck 


Haha!!
Well, I heard from Chuck and shared that with Brett (loved watching the reaction) and said, "What do you think", and he says "I think it's great but let me ask DJ", and a few minutes later it's a good idea all around and here we are

BiggieSmalls shipped it today, it will be coming to me over a rare break. I expect to like it. Assuming that, I expect to take a while to get used to it, but when I do there will be a Williams 6 vs Minick .500 showdown!! 

another  minick  surfaced  but i cant remember where //////  CLARK  GAYTON  has the  la 6 i bought from chris  amnesia  --it was 26  has  patch on  neck AND  an old refinish //no case
-----------
the la is real strong projection wise  ----currently i have an EARL   a  BOB    and  a  JAY  [on consignment ]
   the jay-tennessee is mint  new 8 letters and the slim generic case  that earl used sometimes




quote author=Jhereg link=topic=43965.msg1155397#msg1155397 date=1473747044]
Haha!!
Well, I heard from Chuck and shared that with Brett (loved watching the reaction) and said, "What do you think", and he says "I think it's great but let me ask DJ", and a few minutes later it's a good idea all around and here we are

BiggieSmalls shipped it today, it will be coming to me over a rare break. I expect to like it. Assuming that, I expect to take a while to get used to it, but when I do there will be a Williams 6 vs Minick .500 showdown!! 
[/quote]

Welp, after a lot of aggravation from USPS, I got to pick up the Williams 6 sent from BiggieSmalls in Santa Fe!

First impressions, it's absolutely beautiful. Slide is just pristine. The instrument aside, the fact that the case and all of the other items are original just makes me so happy! I just love to see the quality and craftsmanship, and in such great condition. Love the old mutes, love the old trombone stand (and it still works!). It even came with a cleaning rod and some cheesecloth, things that I actually really need right now.

Ok, getting on to the horn! I'm sure BiggieSmalls posted photos back when he bought it, but heck, I took some too There is one mystery item in the case that I'm hoping someone can identify for me!


Old straight mute.

Bottom of the mute. Patent date is May 28, 1929.


Ok, here's the mystery item. Some kind of canister, the top screws off and there's a long metal tube with a ball bearing inside. The top portion (with the serrated round grip things you can see) twists, but the twisting doesn't seem to do anything and I don't see anything like a nozzle. Any ideas? Am I an idiot for not knowing what this is? 


Ok enough of the accessories. How about that TROMbone!



Patent number.

Serial. And no, I don't much care who sees this, the more people who know this serial is in my possession, the more can help me if it ever gets stolen.



As you can see in earlier photos, there is a telephone cord wrapped around the neck. I tried to gently pull it off, and it literally crumbled in my hands. Underneath was some tarnish.

After a gentle wash with some mild dish soap, nice and clean! But the phone pattern will probably always be there. Cool


If that wasn't enough for you, there are a few more pics over at my flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sageyoku/

Sidenote, USPS is evil.

Currently I'm on break from the circus. When I come back, there will be another series of photos of the Williams together with my Minick and Brett's Minick. And then once I get used to the new horn, I will share thoughts on differences between the two. I'd also like to make a "Williams vs Minick" comparison video...stay tuned...

Bicycle tire pump?
Hydraulic cylinder from an old screen door?

You can safely remove grime like that by rubbing with a white plastic pencil eraser. Stadtler. No chem mess. The worn eraser just brushes off. Keep the eraser in the case and use as necessary.

Rub the horn before performances and it keeps shirt collars sparkling clean.

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Sep 19, 2016, 05:59PMBicycle tire pump?
Hydraulic cylinder from an old screen door?


Funny, I thought of the bike pump too! I have a 1970s Raleigh folder bike that came with a pump, and it looked very much like this, only longer!

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Sep 19, 2016, 06:02PMYou can safely remove grime like that by rubbing with a white plastic pencil eraser. Stadtler. No chem mess. The worn eraser just brushes off. Keep the eraser in the case and use as necessary.

Rub the horn before performances and it keeps shirt collars sparkling clean.

Thank you very much for that tip, I'll pick one up! That will be helpful for Brett's horn as well in that same area. Both Minicks have neck protection, I'll probably pick something up for this one as well.

Quote from: Jhereg on Sep 19, 2016, 06:08PMBoth Minicks have neck protection, I'll probably pick something up for this one as well.

Why not just replace the original neck pipe with one made out of carbon fiber?   


Just kidding.   

Hey Megan, glad you were finally able to wrestle the horn away from USPS!

The mystery item is actually an ancient water atomizer (non-functional).

I've never seen a trombone Non-Pareil mute.  The trumpet version was used by the Ellington boys with plungers before there were Pixie and Trixie mutes.

I can't wait to hear your comparison with the two Minicks.

Note: the patent is for the curved hand brace, issued to Earl Williams on 11/25/1930 (in case anybody is interested)

Quote from: Dan Hine on Sep 19, 2016, 06:29PMWhy not just replace the original neck pipe with one made out of carbon fiber?   


Just kidding.   

Go to heck Dan    

Quote from: BiggieSmalls on Sep 19, 2016, 06:48PMHey Megan, glad you were finally able to wrestle the horn away from USPS!

The mystery item is actually an ancient water atomizer (non-functional).


Thanks so much Chuck! I promise to take great care of this trombone! Very excited to play it at work!

USPS was absolutely ridiculous today. A "delivery attempt" was made on Saturday, but they claimed there was "no one available to sign". That's BS because it was delivered to a condo complex with a front desk clerk available 24/7. I rescheduled delivery with very specific instructions to leave the package with the front desk, who would also sign for it. On Monday morning I got notice that delivery had been attempted again, this time the excuse was "package too large for receptacle". OMG...the front desk has a giant mail room, there's no WAY there was no room in there. Argh. So I tried to schedule a pickup, but they wouldn't give me the location where it was being held, they said I needed to look at the delivery attempt notice (which they hadn't left either time)!

 

So now I'm in a total rage, proclaiming to my boyfriend that once we get to Chicago I am driving to every single post office until I find it if that's what it takes. He drives faster. I call the 800 number for USPS and after an hour of waiting, get to speak to someone who finally consents to give me the address where the trombone is being held hostage AND a phone number for the supervisor there. I call and ask when the package will be back at the location so I can come pick it up. After a very long time on hold she says it's at the facility and I can come get it any time. In other words, they never even took it out for delivery, otherwise it would have still been on the truck.

 

My boyfriend's wonderful parents went to get it right away.
Can you guess how far it was from their condo?


I was absolutely livid. Bottom line, they just didn't want to bother with dropping it off. Good LORD.

Anyway, yes, it is safe with me now

Quote from: BGuttman on Sep 19, 2016, 06:56PMI've never seen a trombone Non-Pareil mute.  The trumpet version was used by the Ellington boys with plungers before there were Pixie and Trixie mutes.

I can't wait to hear your comparison with the two Minicks.

Note: the patent is for the curved hand brace, issued to Earl Williams on 11/25/1930 (in case anybody is interested)


Cool! I wonder what the mute will sound like! I'm shy to play in this apartment around Jameson's parents, so it might have to wait...

Quote from: Jhereg on Sep 19, 2016, 07:13PMCool! I wonder what the mute will sound like! I'm shy to play in this apartment around Jameson's parents, so it might have to wait...


I'd bet money that they won't mind.  After all, they put up with Jameson practicing his piano for all those years.  Just don't do it at 3 AM.

There is a modern copy of the Non-Pareil ( without equal, in French) trombone straight mute. Now made by Pro-Tec Liberty it is available from www.hickeys.com. It is the version for smaller tenor trombones, and is 60% of the volume of a Wick straight mute.

Of course, the vintage real mute-- as used by the Ellington crew-- is made of thick aluminium. The modern one is thinner. Much thinner, but it is much closer to the Ellington sound than other straight mutes.

One of my 6's is a very close serial number to that. Probably made a month later.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Sep 19, 2016, 08:00PMOne of my 6's is a very close serial number to that. Probably made a month later.

Cool! Well when you come out in Bridgeport this one will be here for you to try!

That's a water spray bottle. I've got one that was sold by a music store down San Diego way, probably in the late 1940's. As shown in your pic, "the safety's on".

Beautiful horn!

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on it Vs. the Minick

Quote from: JohnL on Sep 19, 2016, 11:21PMThat's a water spray bottle. I've got one that was sold by a music store down San Diego way, probably in the late 1940's. As shown in your pic, "the safety's on".

Neat! I'm going to keep fiddling with it
Quote from: Exzaclee on Sep 20, 2016, 07:38AMBeautiful horn!

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on it Vs. the Minick

Yes, I'm glad it's been so well-preserved! Yeah I can't wait either haha. It's been almost a year of playing "my" Minick now, so I think I have a better idea of how that horn plays compared to Brett's. Brett's is darker and probably will be more comparable to this Williams, though interestingly it think the bell size is closer to that of my Minick (smaller). I think.

My Minick, I love it. So much. Just a beautiful and clear sound and the best slide action I've ever enjoyed. So responsive and light. <3
But Brett's has The Best sound. Rich and wonderful. Darker than mine. I love them both!!

Quote from: Jhereg on Sep 20, 2016, 09:14AMNeat! I'm going to keep fiddling with it The center post is the pump; the nozzle is attached to that. In "safe" configuration, the nozzle sits in a little rest which keeps the pump from being depressed and covers the nozzle orifice. To spray, you have to rotate the center post/nozzle to disengage the nozzle from the rest.