Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

ttf_Dan Hine · Post by **ttf_Dan Hine** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:19 pm

Quote from: thayervalve on Apr 03, 2007, 01:32PMmay I ask a question?

does it really matter who in their right minds plays a 1 1/2G?

isn't the idea just to find the best fit for you and run with it?

I think the problem is that too many people (especially high school and undergrad students) are not finding out what is best for them. Instead, they find out what is best for Blair Bollinger or Doug Yeo and run with that. Or something else I have been seeing more and more of is people saying they use X mouthpiece but then pull out the 60-esque piece "for those low C's." Grrrr...drives me nuts! Practice instead of purchase!

Dan "bought way too many mouthpieces and learned the hard way" Hine

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:48 pm

Quote from: thayervalve on Apr 03, 2007, 01:32PMmay I ask a question?

does it really matter who in their right minds plays a 1 1/2G?

isn't the idea just to find the best fit for you and run with it?

Ya play what works for you but.....
What's the point of the Forum if we can't get others opinions and learn from their experiences with a selected topic?
So I would answer yes to your question. We just want to know why people use the equipment they use. No point of a Forum if you can't ask others questions.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:36 pm

Quote from: thayervalve on Apr 03, 2007, 01:32PMmay I ask a question?

does it really matter who in their right minds plays a 1 1/2G?

isn't the idea just to find the best fit for you and run with it?
Did you read my original post ????

Chris Stearn.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:56 am

To make the uber-thread ever more "uber" ...

My best teacher told me that my mouthpiece should make my trombone sound like a trombone. Sounds obvious, right? But it was a point well taken. I permanently retired my Stork 1 and settled on a 1 1/4 Bach. That was in school, and now I'm a band teacher who gives more love to his bass guitar than his bass bone

, but I'm inclined to dig out that old stock 1 1/2 and give it a go. Maybe I'll make my Bach 50 sound most like a trombone.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:18 am

Chris, I guess you have tried lots of Bach 1 1/2G:s in your life.
So have I.
My first bass trombone piece was the original Holton 1 1/2G that came with the horn.
I did not understand how good it was then in 1969. (I was working professionally as bass trombonist in Rolf Ericson Big Band, studios and subbing in the Opera and Symphony orch.)
I got the Horn smashed up and bought a new horn (another Holton, it was not as good as the first one) and started to look for a new mpc. (I let the old one go the insurance company)
All the Bach 1 1/2G.s are different, the worst ones are really junk I say.
Sometimes you run into a very good one though! Just as good as my old Holton mpc!
The best 1 1/2G size mouthpiece I found today is my Carl Hammond 19BL.

So I say to the question, who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G?
The ones that love the sound we do, and have found a good one!

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:22 pm

Hi Svenne,
You are as ever, quite right... there are good and bad Bach 1 1/2G's out there. Most Mt Vernon 1 1/2G's are very good... some are just stunning !!
Carl is a very nice guy and his mouthpieces are very well made. The 19BL is really an example of original thought in that size range. For me it is too bright and compact, but I am sure it will find many fans.
This whole 1 1/2G thing is far more than a mouthpiece size....
it's about what you like in sound and where you are in your playing.... not better or worse than other things... just a mindset.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu May 24, 2007 4:13 pm

I thought I should mark the 10,000 hit point for this topic.
I find it positive that so many people should want to look at this topic. It has been far more than a simple mouthpiece thread.... it has been about attitudes, ideas, the past and the future and the 'why and how' of how we are where we are.
The debate is the most important thing... there is no wrong and right about this, though I seem to have struck a chord with many players.
It's about where I am in a long journey and where others find themselves. Thanks to all for your time and your input....
perhaps there is more yet to be said ?
Chris Stearn.

ttf_bonesmarsh · Post by **ttf_bonesmarsh** » Thu May 24, 2007 5:44 pm

Chris--

On another thread about the Conn 72H I made mention recently that Van Haney considered the Benge 1 1/2G to be a holy grail. I suggested then that the Benge version may be slightly larger than a modern stock Bach 1 1/2G and be closer to a MV 1 1/2G. Van Haney thought they were more free blowing than the Bach version.

On further thinking about my point I should clarify that at the time of our discussion about the Benge 1 1/2G Van was a King clinician and was in the development stage of the then new King 8B. His prototype had an oversize 10 1/2" bell -- or larger, and all the King bass bones came with a stock Benge.

He may have just liked the mouthpiece that came with the horn.

As it turns out Van had a ream of emery cloth in the case was was constantly buffing the bell to thin it and try and tame the beast. Well, it never happened, and when next I ran into him he was again playing Holtons, and said that the King 8B was like a pirated version of a Boeing 747....nice to look at, but it had no "center-of-gravity" and would never fly.

Maybe the Benge 1 1/2G was just an abberation that happened to fit two wrongs making a right?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu May 24, 2007 8:51 pm

Perhaps this is a hybrid reply between this and the physical fitness thread, but I have been thinking much about this. I have talked to many folks in my excercise circle about the need to alter our fitness routines to continue to enjoy the benefit. The common belief is that our bodies adapt to our routines and we have to change our habits so our body will continue its interest. Perhaps we benefit from changing equipment for the same reason. Our bodies get used to the required tasks and we have to tweak them in order for our chops to stay interested.

DG

ttf_Stewbones43 · Post by **ttf_Stewbones43** » Fri May 25, 2007 4:48 am

I normally play on a Wick 0AL or a Schilke 59 and I am happy with either, but I am about to do a gig with a smallish choral society doing Mendelssohn's "Hymn of Praise". To lighten the sound I've looked out my old Bach 1 1/2G(gold plated rim and cup) and I have re-discovered it; warmth with lightness-just what is required.

So, "Who in their right mind plays on a 1 1/2G?"

I do, but there again I'm not sure that I'm in my right mind.

Cheers

Stewbones

ttf_slidejj · Post by **ttf_slidejj** » Fri May 25, 2007 5:46 am

Well my definition of normal is "something I ain't" and I'm rediscovering the 1 1/2G too, which is what I began playing bass trombone with. I've had a Rath 1 1/2W on order for almost two months, hopefully it'll get here soon and I can try it out this summer.

ttf_Slidennis · Post by **ttf_Slidennis** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:54 pm

I will...

I just won a 1 1/2G on eBay today, I hope it'll be a better match for me and my borrowed Yammy 620G than the stock Yam 58 that came with...

I'll report later...

I already can say that the Yam 58 is not bad, but tends to brighten the sound too much in the middle register, when the low Bnat (trigger 2d) is definitively not good sounding (stuffy) Pedal notes are not at all a problem with it though...

ttf_Hornman805 · Post by **ttf_Hornman805** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:14 pm

Whew! I just finished all 9 pages of this thread. Took me two nights! LOL I stayed up until 2:00 AM reading it last night. Dreamt about bass trombone mouthpieces all night! Anyway, I'm a tenor player doing some doubling on bass...not really a bass but an older .547 Holton with a 9" bell. Kind of a beater but more of a bass then my Bach 36B <smile>. The horn came with a Bach 3G so that's what I'm using; I'm not thrilled. Plus it has a real wide rim & I like 'em on the narrow side. SO, I must be out of my mind...I'll be looking for a 1 1/2G. Hopefully with a narrow-ish rim.

Chris, good thread; I learned a ton.

Michael

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:48 pm

Quote from: Hornman805 on Jul 22, 2007, 11:14PMWhew! I just finished all 9 pages of this thread. Took me two nights! LOL I stayed up until 2:00 AM reading it last night. Dreamt about bass trombone mouthpieces all night! Anyway, I'm a tenor player doing some doubling on bass...not really a bass but an older .547 Holton with a 9" bell. Kind of a beater but more of a bass then my Bach 36B <smile>. The horn came with a Bach 3G so that's what I'm using; I'm not thrilled. Plus it has a real wide rim & I like 'em on the narrow side. SO, I must be out of my mind...I'll be looking for a 1 1/2G. Hopefully with a narrow-ish rim.

Chris, good thread; I learned a ton.

Michael

I'm impressed with your marathon !!
I hope the collective mass of information served to enlighten your mouthpiece choice rather than constrain it.
Chris Stearn

ttf_Hornman805 · Post by **ttf_Hornman805** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:06 pm

Definitely enlightened. It's good to know 1 1/2G isn't big! Ha ha... Coming from tenor, I thought 3G would feel big. Nope. The 3G is kind of disappointing. What about rims? I notice the newer 1 1/2Gs are narrow (good for me). Did that vary from year to year?

Thanks,
Michael

ttf_slidejj · Post by **ttf_slidejj** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:49 am

I think Bach has always made the 1 1/2G with a narrow rim, but they do vary. Some other manufacturers use a bigger blank and make the wide rim versions like Rath.

Quote from: Hornman805 on Jul 23, 2007, 03:06PMDefinitely enlightened. It's good to know 1 1/2G isn't big! Ha ha... Coming from tenor, I thought 3G would feel big. Nope. The 3G is kind of disappointing. What about rims? I notice the newer 1 1/2Gs are narrow (good for me). Did that vary from year to year?

Thanks,
Michael

ttf_grub · Post by **ttf_grub** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:00 pm

Check out a Faxx 1.5G. The rim is pretty decent and the mouthpiece as a whole is fantastic for the scratch.
-->grub

ttf_Hornman805 · Post by **ttf_Hornman805** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:42 pm

Quote from: grub on Jul 24, 2007, 09:00PMCheck out a Faxx 1.5G. The rim is pretty decent and the mouthpiece as a whole is fantastic for the scratch.
-->grub

My thoughts exactly...otherwise I'd end up paying more for the piece than I did the horn! LOL However, my boss might have an old one laying around...

ttf_CRWV · Post by **ttf_CRWV** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:20 pm

I picked up a 20$ Brasswind 1.5G and I'm pleasantly surprised by the rim, more flat than expected (in a good way)

ttf_Nobody · Post by **ttf_Nobody** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:06 am

Somebody slap me in the face, please. I picked up Stetson's massive Edwards dual-bore bass yesterday, and played it with my 1 1/4G (which sounded great on the 613H). Very dead-sounding. I just bought a 1.5G not ten minutes ago, and the difference is amazing. It sounds awesome. And it's now physically possible to play light on this horn. I'd read this thread a few times and agreed with it, but never actually bought a 1.5G. Hence the face-slapping.

I wish I'd bought this mouthpiece about a year and a half ago, it probably would have sounded even better on the 613H.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:55 am

Quote from: Nobody on Jul 27, 2007, 10:06AMSomebody slap me in the face, please. I picked up Stetson's massive Edwards dual-bore bass yesterday, and played it with my 1 1/4G (which sounded great on the 613H). Very dead-sounding. I just bought a 1.5G not ten minutes ago, and the difference is amazing. It sounds awesome. And it's now physically possible to play light on this horn. I'd read this thread a few times and agreed with it, but never actually bought a 1.5G. Hence the face-slapping.

I wish I'd bought this mouthpiece about a year and a half ago, it probably would have sounded even better on the 613H.
Absolutely !!
You will, of course, have to work harder on your low register, but you get a great upper register for free !
Things that were considered good in orchestras in the 1970's are now often considered gross and un-musical... and as playing is re-assesed, we choose equipment that helps us reach these new goals.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_Nobody · Post by **ttf_Nobody** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:12 pm

Quote from: blast on Jul 27, 2007, 10:55AMAbsolutely !!
You will, of course, have to work harder on your low register, but you get a great upper register for free !
Things that were considered good in orchestras in the 1970's are now often considered gross and un-musical... and as playing is re-assesed, we choose equipment that helps us reach these new goals.
Chris Stearn.

Actually, my low register sounds significantly better too. It's a little more work in the LOW pedals, but everything from high C down to about a pedal F sounds great. I'd still like a horn thats a little easier to play, but that'll come. I'm going to the ETW this year, hopefully I'll find something.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:52 pm

Quote from: Nobody on Jul 27, 2007, 01:12PMActually, my low register sounds significantly better too. It's a little more work in the LOW pedals, but everything from high C down to about a pedal F sounds great. I'd still like a horn thats a little easier to play, but that'll come. I'm going to the ETW this year, hopefully I'll find something.
I don't think you'll find anything easier than that duo-bore Edwards... at least easier in terms of getting things to happen.
I was using my Conn/Shires valve 70H last week and could make the loudest parts of Tchaik 4th symphony happen on about 50% effort.. I think that's easy. It's a bit like the 1 1/2G... if you keep an open mind, an old Conn can surprise you... even the guys in that orchestra, playing late Elkhart Conns were surprised that a 70+ year-old horn can still hack it.
Always keep an open mind and ignore hype.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_CRWV · Post by **ttf_CRWV** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:32 pm

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." - Albert Einstein

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:48 pm

I have to say that this thread has been a wonderful reminder for me. When I was 14 years old and really bored at a barbecue at my uncles,I found myself poking around the garage.I found a box of LP's. I found this record with a picture of George Roberts on the cover. Brought it inside,put in on the turntable and heard the sound of the bass Trombone.The sound hit you right in the chest-and stayed there-like something from outer space.But it wasn't from outer space,it was from here.And those folks were making it on those 1&1/2 Mouthpieces.I've spent untold amounts of cash on the perfect mouthpiece,but still keep coming back to my 1&1/2 G.If I play five notes on a slightly larger mouthpiece,you know in your gut that you're headed back to where your came from.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:06 am

I was looking for a mouthpiece for a student last night... tried ten out of the box, all 1 1/2G size... several blew as well, or easier than my Mt Vernon 1 1/2G, but none sounded as good. It's worth the extra effort. Close contenders ? The Hammond 19 is very easy to play, but sounds very bright to me.. George Roberts CE... had a few.. this one is very fine... Greg Black 1 1/2G.. good but not as flexible as the Bach.
Mt Vernon 1 1/2G... worth the search.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:39 am

Here is an interesting article that speaks some about size while adressing mouthpiece selection from Jay Freidman.

http://www.jayfriedman.net/reflections/20040108Equipment_-_Size_does_matter.php

ttf_Jox · Post by **ttf_Jox** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:07 pm

Quote from: Nobody on Jul 27, 2007, 10:06AMSomebody slap me in the face, please. I picked up Stetson's massive Edwards dual-bore bass yesterday, and played it with my 1 1/4G (which sounded great on the 613H). Very dead-sounding. I just bought a 1.5G not ten minutes ago, and the difference is amazing. It sounds awesome. And it's now physically possible to play light on this horn. I'd read this thread a few times and agreed with it, but never actually bought a 1.5G. Hence the face-slapping.

I wish I'd bought this mouthpiece about a year and a half ago, it probably would have sounded even better on the 613H.

You got the edwards?!?!?!?? Nice. I love the bach there. What brand of 1 1/2 G do you have? I play on an older bach 1 1/2G (now labled 1.5G)

It's strange how so many brands label as 1.5G but they all feel different. The Faxx is the smalled 1 1.5G to me and the largest would be the older Vincent Bach 1 1/2G (it was free too!). Funnily I play the Kelly (see through red) 1.5G on my german tenor with around a 9-9 1/2 inch bell.

ttf_Slidennis · Post by **ttf_Slidennis** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:13 am

Quote from: Slidennis on Jul 17, 2007, 11:54PMI will...

I just won a 1 1/2G on eBay today, I hope it'll be a better match for me and my borrowed Yammy 620G than the stock Yam 58 that came with...

I'll report later...

I already can say that the Yam 58 is not bad, but tends to brighten the sound too much in the middle register, when the low Bnat (trigger 2d) is definitively not good sounding (stuffy) Pedal notes are not at all a problem with it though...
One week on the Bach 1 1/2G, and just got a Laskey 58MD yesterday as well...

Here are my thoughts about :
The Bach 1 1/2 immediately felt better than the yamaha, more even through the whole register, and improved trigger range (above all the 2d partial of it...)

The Laskey : more open than the Bach, my low range is still better immediately, but the high range suffer somewhat. The fast licks are easier, but it takes more air than the Bach...
I have to work harder on that one to make it respond as - or even more - efficiently...

As I took the Bass for doubling purposes, and I'm new to it, I think I'll stick with the Bach 1 1/2G for now, it feels so right with the trombone AND on my face... But sure there will be some work to get over the somewhat stuffy feeling of the trigger

Some quick impressions from a newbie...

ttf_Slidennis · Post by **ttf_Slidennis** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:11 am

Quote from: blast on Oct 25, 2006, 11:32AMA lot of people complain that the low register 'backs up' on them when using a 1 1/2G.
I had to try some bigger mouthpieces last week (briefly) and really had to think about low register when returning to the 1 1/2.... AIR.... YOU REALLY HAVE TO GET YOUR AIR RIGHT ON A 1 1/2G.... it's so easy to put too much air through and have a 'back up'... or to put to little through and lose quality... it has to be JUST RIGHT.
Bigger mouthpieces seem to have a wider envelope of suitable airflow... 1 1/2 size pieces give you virtually no choice. Get it really right and the sound gets big and projects like crazy... wrong and you think you need a bigger mouthpiece.
Just a thought.

Chris Stearn.
This is it... with tenor mpc too...

And it has to do with mpc pressure on the lips : too much pressure : you'll go with a larger mpc to have more vibration, coz the pressure will put your vibration intensity down...
The larger mpc will compensate and allow more lip surface to vibrate at the expense of focus and right resonance into the horn, IMHO...

Just a thought I wanted to share...

Do you (dis)agree???

ttf_slidejj · Post by **ttf_slidejj** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:23 am

Quote from: Nobody on Jul 27, 2007, 01:12PMActually, my low register sounds significantly better too. It's a little more work in the LOW pedals, but everything from high C down to about a pedal F sounds great. I'd still like a horn thats a little easier to play, but that'll come. I'm going to the ETW this year, hopefully I'll find something.

These quotes pretty much summarize my experience with 1.5/58ish mouthpieces. High range is easier than with the 1.25/59ish pieces, and the low range is only more work below pedal F. I'm divided between a Heritage 2AL and Rath 1-1/4W now but am looking for that 1-1/2 piece that'll work for everything. Now if that Rath 1-1/2W I ordered months ago will arrive

ttf_Nobody · Post by **ttf_Nobody** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:45 pm

Quote from: blast on Jul 27, 2007, 02:52PMI don't think you'll find anything easier than that duo-bore Edwards... at least easier in terms of getting things to happen.
I was using my Conn/Shires valve 70H last week and could make the loudest parts of Tchaik 4th symphony happen on about 50% effort.. I think that's easy. It's a bit like the 1 1/2G... if you keep an open mind, an old Conn can surprise you... even the guys in that orchestra, playing late Elkhart Conns were surprised that a 70+ year-old horn can still hack it.
Always keep an open mind and ignore hype.
Chris Stearn.

I think I'm seeing what you mean now with the Edwards. It wasn't so much that it was hard to play, but that I wasn't used to it. Now I sound (to my ears) very good on it. I did get my hands on a late Elkhart Conn 71H, and there are things I like about it more than the Edwards (and playing in Bb/E is a lot easier than I thought it would be), but overall I prefer the Edwards. I'm definitely keeping it in case I like it more as my playing develops, but at the moment the Edwards works better. Thanks for helping me figure all this out!

ttf_Nobody · Post by **ttf_Nobody** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:47 pm

Quote from: Jox on Aug 02, 2007, 10:07PMYou got the edwards?!?!?!?? Nice. I love the bach there. What brand of 1 1/2 G do you have? I play on an older bach 1 1/2G (now labled 1.5G)

It's strange how so many brands label as 1.5G but they all feel different. The Faxx is the smalled 1 1.5G to me and the largest would be the older Vincent Bach 1 1/2G (it was free too!). Funnily I play the Kelly (see through red) 1.5G on my german tenor with around a 9-9 1/2 inch bell.

It's a newish Bach 1.5G that plays really well. I was a little leery about the quality control, but this one's fine. I'm going up to the ETW and maybe ITF this year, so I'll get a chance to try other stuff in that general size range.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:57 pm

Just had a thought-It's really interesting that to this day,mouthpiece makers still use 1&1/2(sometimes,even G) to tell us what this thing that plugs into the Horn is. What an interesting thing,It's like we all know what it is-so we spend our money on it. A lot of hope is projected onto this thing. It arrives,you plug it in,and...Well you know how it goes. So what IS THE reference that leads one to buy a mouthpiece that is called a 1&1/2?

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:43 pm

I agree with Chris point in this thread (sorry my english) I have played bass trombone for 30 years and have done all the mistakes that can be done.

We all love the sound of George Roberts, Yeo Douglas, Ben van Dijk, Kleinhammer, David Taylor, Charles Vernon, Jeffrey Reynolds (listen to his "the big trombone"), and so many more..........

I had a teacher who played Denis Wick 2AL and he sound fantastic. He told me to stand by with my bach 1 1/5 Bach. I didnt but I should have. I have tried and tried bigger and bigger. Maybe I could make my sound like these people? The gras is always more green and so on.,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I understand all these people who try bigger and bigger, we all have tried it. Including you Chris an maybe all bass trombonist in the world.

A big mouthpiece is not better but you can get a big sound and better lower register. But you will never be a better musician.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:17 pm

Quote from: Donward59 on Aug 12, 2007, 07:57PM Just had a thought-It's really interesting that to this day,mouthpiece makers still use 1&1/2(sometimes,even G) to tell us what this thing that plugs into the Horn is. What an interesting thing,It's like we all know what it is-so we spend our money on it. A lot of hope is projected onto this thing. It arrives,you plug it in,and...Well you know how it goes. So what IS THE reference that leads one to buy a mouthpiece that is called a 1&1/2?

Yes Don, it's a powerful symbol... some makers try to bask in the reflected glory of Bach's original system, others like Schilke, move away... but one thing's certain...
There are many forms of 1 1/2G... the good... the bad... and the downright ugly !!
I was measuring mouthpieces this morning and taking just the inner rim size, found all sorts of 1 1/2G sizes.
To start with there are my two favourite Mt Vernon 1 1/2G's... both 27.5 mm...
then a Blessing 1 1/2G at 27.0mm.... a Kelly 1 1/2G 27.2mm.... Greg Black 1 1/2G 27.2mm...
Rath 1 1/2 27.2mm.... Griego 1.5 28.0mm.... George Roberts CE 27.1mm... Holton 1 1/2G 27.2mm
Variations on a theme.... and the blow of each ? vastly different.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_Nobody · Post by **ttf_Nobody** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:14 pm

Hah. I need to be slapped in the face again.

I had a (2-HOUR) lesson with Mr. Van Schaik (bassboneFL) last week, and we worked mostly on getting a more focused sound, and then articulation. I've been doing the exercises he suggested, and my sound has improved. Just now, out of curiosity, I picked up the old Elkhart 71H that I didn't like before and played some on it.

Hey look, it's a bass trombone sound!

My intonation's a bit off on it right now, but once I get used to the horn and the springs in the slide, it should be fine. I'm going to have to do more playing to be really sure, but from what I've done today it sounds quite a bit better.

ttf_slideorama · Post by **ttf_slideorama** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:31 pm

Quote from: savio on Aug 13, 2007, 02:43PMA big mouthpiece is not better but you can get a big sound and better lower register. But you will never be a better musician.

ttf_slideorama · Post by **ttf_slideorama** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:32 pm

Quote from: CRWV on Jul 30, 2007, 09:32PM"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction." - Albert Einstein

ttf_bodingus · Post by **ttf_bodingus** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:38 am

What I like about the Bach is that can get much more of that George Roberts/Tony Studd sound. Very focused, very rich.

I did a blind taste test with several mouthpieces and a friend with a good ear. He was able to pick out two mouthpieces with something like 90% consistency. The Bach 1 1/2G and the Minick L. He liked the sounds on both, but always said "That's the Bach, you have more core to the sound." High, low, mid, excerpts, bits of jazz tunes, long tones, didn't matter.

FYI, we did this over the space of 5 days with me playing a Getzen 1062 FD using all three (Getzen) lead pipes, one pipe per day. YMMV.

Wow.

Thanks for the thread Chris, and to all the great responses. I like the way this helped re-energize my playing/study of the horn. It's nice to have the choices and the research, it's definitely a great time to be a student of the trombone.

For the record, I don't always use the Bach, I also keep the afore mentioned Minick and a Hammond 19BL in my case.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:17 am

I read part of this thread, and on a whim, i got out my old Benge 1.5G.

This is kind of funny, but i find it really good for my tenor. Yes, my 4B/F. It made me decide to get a larger mouthpiece next go round (i don't have the E-1 in my signature yet, i was still deciding if i should get a MP that big). As for using it on bass, i will try it out for the next few days. I am really suprised at how good the Benge plays, it's not a name i would associate with a good mouthpiece. A good cheap large bore tenor, perhaps, but not a mouthpiece. I get soo much to my sound, not just the tone, but more behind it. I never noticed before.

ttf_Ellrod · Post by **ttf_Ellrod** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:41 am

I read through this topic the other day and didn't see any mention of 1 1/2G variants like the 1 1/2GM and the Megatone 1 1/2G. Does the GM replicate the reaming out advocated by Kleinhammer? Can anyone comment on their experiences with these mouthpieces?

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:46 am

Quote from: Ellrod on Aug 17, 2007, 09:41AMI read through this topic the other day and didn't see any mention of 1 1/2G variants like the 1 1/2GM and the Megatone 1 1/2G. Does the GM replicate the reaming out advocated by Kleinhammer? Can anyone comment on their experiences with these mouthpieces?

I've yet to play a Bach bass trombone mouthpiece that's been bored out that works... and yet to play a GM mega or otherwise that I would give houseroom to. Now there's an extreme opinion for you

I've bored out many Bachs.... and always spoilt them.
I feel that the GM's are an easy-fix solution... slapping the 1G bore and backbore onto the 1 1/2G and 1 1/4G is hardly mouthpiece design.... I wonder what Vincent Bach would have thought ?
I thought Kleinhammer, in his book, talked about reaming a mouthpiece out as a 'special'to help with loud low notes, not as an all- round mouthpiece solution. I think that says a lot about the lack of mouthpiece models back then.
Some of the better 1 1/2G based modern models actually have a smaller bore than Bach's models... but have slightly bigger cups and slightly wider rims.
On the subject of wider rims.... nobody has picked up on my statement that both the Mt Vernon 1 1/2G's I use have a 27.5 inner rim diameter, as opposed to the printed spec of 27.0 .... bit of a difference.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_grub · Post by **ttf_grub** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:57 pm

Yeah, like the difference between a 1 1/2 and a 1 1/4! ; )
-->grub

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:41 am

Quote from: grub on Aug 17, 2007, 07:57PMYeah, like the difference between a 1 1/2 and a 1 1/4! ; )
-->grub

Yep.... that's as long as a 1 1/4G really is 27.5..... which is doubtful.
I must check a couple of modern 1 1/2G's and 1 1/4G's to see if Bach have started to believe their own specs.
Have we finally found a stupidly simple reason for Mt Vernon 1 1/2G's being considered better ?????
Chris Stearn.

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:21 am

Does this mean that the 2G Mount Vernon also is way off the listed measurements? ....and; How does it compare with a more modern 2G?
I am in a process of deciding whether to go for the ! 1/2G or the 2G
Mount Vernons I have ! Btw!; The throat backbore is very different on the two! According to the modern catalogues they should be the same!

tbarh

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:01 pm

Quote from: tbarh on Aug 18, 2007, 08:21AMDoes this mean that the 2G Mount Vernon also is way off the listed measurements? ....and; How does it compare with a more modern 2G?
I am in a process of deciding whether to go for the ! 1/2G or the 2G
Mount Vernons I have ! Btw!; The throat backbore is very different on the two! According to the modern catalogues they should be the same!

tbarh

Well, the Rath B2 was a direct copy (rim and cup) of a Mt Vernon 2G... and that seems to come out at 27.0 ... but that 2G feels on the big side to me.
I suspect that back in the Mt Vernon period and before, the 2G was a continuation of a pre-war mouthpiece (as was the 3G for that matter)as the size of inner rim (26.75) seems the odd one out... 5G 25.5, 4G 26.0, 1 1/2G 27.0, 1 1/4G 27.5, 1G 28.0 ....
all round figures... but 3G 26.26 and 2G 26.75... where did they come from ?
Probably models developed in the 20's or 30's with top players... just a guess.
As for which one to play... which feels right ? which sounds right ?
If the answers are different, give sound preference to feel... the face can adapt.
Chris Stearn.

ttf_slidejj · Post by **ttf_slidejj** » Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:50 pm

I finally got the Rath 1-1/2W I ordered in March. I've only played it for three days but am really impressed so far. Most pieces I've played in the 1.5G/58 range back up a little with both valves, especially low B, and are more work than a 1.25/59 size piece below pedal F. This piece did not back up at all and is only more work than my favorite 1.25/59 piece, which is a Rath 1-1.4W, below pedal D. And the sound, it's the 1.5G sound I remember from my college days without the uncomfortable rim and quirks. It's focused, wide, snappy when I want it be as well, and just projects, no cut is a better way to describe it. I practiced with a trombone choir, 12 were there, this afternoon and just had an easier time with the 1-1/2W than I usually have with the 1-1/4W except for pedal C, but I could make it cut through and had no trouble getting the sound I wanted. Plus the high range is much easier too. I think that I've come back to the size mouthpiece that I started with and have found one that works fine for me. Thanks Chris (blast) for this thread and all the advice you've given, not to mention all the effort to design this wonderful mouthpiece.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:34 pm

I have an old mouthpiece I found and wonder if someone can tell me more about it:

"Reynolds and Son 1 1/2"?

And I also wonder if Chris can say something more about schilke. 59 or 58 is the same size as bach 1 1/2? I just wonder why he wrote in an earlyer post: "schilke, move away" I know from reading this forum that its an old mouthpiece and some say its a copy of the trumpet mouthpieces only bigger? Is that true?

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:05 pm

Quote from: savio on Aug 24, 2007, 01:34PMI have an old mouthpiece I found and wonder if someone can tell me more about it:

"Reynolds and Son 1 1/2"?

And I also wonder if Chris can say something more about schilke. 59 or 58 is the same size as bach 1 1/2? I just wonder why he wrote in an earlyer post: "schilke, move away" I know from reading this forum that its an old mouthpiece and some say its a copy of the trumpet mouthpieces only bigger? Is that true?

Leif

Schilke, move away.... your quote was from a post about numbering systems used on bass trombone mouthpieces... I was saying that many makers have copied Bach's numbering system, but some.. like Schilke, moved away from it. That's all. Schilke mouthpieces play very differently from Bachs, whatever the size and if I were asked how the sizes match up, I'd have to say that it depends on the particular Bach you are looking at. The 58 feels a touch smaller than a 1 1/2G to me... regardless of the specs. 59 comes in around the 1 1/4G feelwise, and the 60 is the original 'big' mouthpiece.
No trombone mouthpiece is based on a trumpet mouthpiece.... even the smallest tenor mouthpiece.... now some bass trombone mouthpieces may have started off as tuba mouthpieces

but that's another story.
Chris Stearn.