Is it worth getting a 1G for bass trombone?

[ttf_peteriley]

Hi,

I'm currently playing bass trombone on a 1-1/2 G. I love the big sound (compared to my tenor) and I'm assuming this is the right size for my bass trombone (X0) since it came with one. I do play both a large-bore and medium tenor though and I've noticed that the lip flexibilities are a bit more difficult on the larger MP. On the other hand, I've seen a few people playing a 1G. Is that a reasonable leap in terms of getting an even fuller sound, or could there be issues with range, flexibility, etc? Just wondering what other peoples' experiences have been before I shell out the money.

Thanks in advance, Pete

[ttf_EWadie99]

Well, as someone who used to use a 1G, I'll say that it isn't a good mouthpiece IMHO.  Going from a 1.5G to a 1G is a pretty big jump too.  If you do want something in the size range of a 1G, I'll say that there are better ones from different companies of its size.  Also it could apply to the Schilke 60.  Just my honest opinion.

Suggestions:
Wedge 1G
Hammond 21BL or BXL
Greg Black 1G
Just to name a few

[ttf_gregs70]

Only way to know is to try one.  What mouthpiece works on what horn depends on three things - the horn, the mouthpiece,and the player, with the player the most important of the three IMHO.  For instance, I play a 5 on the King 3B I just bought off a guy who was using a 15D. 

[ttf_BGuttman]

First, a 1G will not make the lip slurs any easier than the 1 1/2 G.  1 1/2G is a great starter size (and for some forever size) on bass trombone.  I would be using that for at least a year as your chops develop.

A 1G is a very large mouthpiece.  Ethan posted a bunch of videos of himself trying to play one and it was immediately apparent that it was too big for him.

What does a 1G do for you?  It makes the lower register "speak" better.

What does it do TO you?  Makes all the notes above the bass staff very flat (you can work on embouchure strength to correct this).  It will tire you out much quicker.  It will take a LOT more air.  And the rim on a 1G is pretty thin so it may hurt your embouchure.  For that size I like the Schilke 60 better.  I haven't tried the Laskey or Hammond mouthpieces that seem to be so popular but they would also be an alternative.

Read Blast's "Who in their right mind plays a 1 1/2 G" thread and it should help you feel better about what you are using now.

[ttf_EWadie99]

Quote from: BGuttman on Yesterday at 11:47 AMFirst, a 1G will not make the lip slurs any easier than the 1 1/2 G.  1 1/2G is a great starter size (and for some forever size) on bass trombone.  I would be using that for at least a year as your chops develop.

A 1G is a very large mouthpiece.  Ethan posted a bunch of videos of himself trying to play one and it was immediately apparent that it was too big for him.

What does a 1G do for you?  It makes the lower register "speak" better.

What does it do TO you?  Makes all the notes above the bass staff very flat (you can work on embouchure strength to correct this).  It will tire you out much quicker.  It will take a LOT more air.  And the rim on a 1G is pretty thin so it may hurt your embouchure.  For that size I like the Schilke 60 better.  I haven't tried the Laskey or Hammond mouthpieces that seem to be so popular but they would also be an alternative.

Read Blast's "Who in their right mind plays a 1 1/2 G" thread and it should help you feel better about what you are using now.
+1 Yep, after my sophomore year (when the videos took place) I then bought myself a Schilke 59 and I have not looked back since, perfect fit?  No, but my sound improved significantly and even though it says that the 59 is 28.52 and the 1G 28.00, I can promise that the 59 is not bigger than the 1G.  Bigger does not mean better!   The fundamentals and playing is!

[ttf_boneagain]

Quote from: EWadie99 on Yesterday at 10:51 AMWell, as someone who used to use a 1G, I'll say that it isn't a good mouthpiece IMHO.  Going from a 1.5G to a 1G is a pretty big jump too.  If you do want something in the size range of a 1G, I'll say that there are better ones from different companies of its size.  Also it could apply to the Schilke 60.  Just my honest opinion.

Suggestions:
Wedge 1G
Hammond 21BL or BXL
Greg Black 1G
Just to name a few


Ethan,
I can appreciate the 1G not working for you, but that does not mean it is not a good mouthpiece, or that there are necessarily better ones.  I, for one, spent most of my money-making orchestral time on a 1G.  I could not get what I needed to out of a Schilke 60.  All the other large options did not exist at the time.  So, at that time I COULD have said, "this is the best mouthpiece in the world."  Even then I knew it was not.  It just happened to do what I needed at the time. But then, at that time, I had just finished four years of doing things like playing HOURS of refuelings out on the open ocean (you don't need to know what a refueling is... just think about blowing your face off playing marches with not even a distant mountain to bounce any sound back... the ultimate outdoor wearout routine...) and a little university playing.  I could (and did) play six hour dance band gigs with transcriptions of Buddy Rich charts many nights in a row.  My face then was quite different from yours.  And from mine now, for that matter.

I think there is a sub-text to your post, and Bruce alluded to it: you went on a little trip.  You moved from a mouthpiece that did not fit your face at the time to one that fits much better.  Maybe you could post a bit more on THAT for the OP, rather than dumping on a decent piece of equipment, or recommending other equipment that very well could be no better for the OP. 

For the OP:

Face first!  Read gregs70's post a couple more times.  If you can play the music you have before you with a 1 1/2G, NO reason to go bigger.  GREAT players have gotten "characteristic sound" from bass trombones with sizes as small as a Bach 3, and made a living doing so.  If the mouthpiece is NOT comfortable on your face, or you CANNOT practice enough hours in a day to make it work on the music you have before you, start looking, but have specific goals before you start looking.  Even with specific goals, you can chase a LOT of mouthpieces and STILL not find "the one."  Without goals you can spend your time confusing your chops and ending off worse than if you had never started looking around in the first place.

[ttf_blast]

The great players got there by practice... not changing equipment.
That said, not all 1 1/2Gs are created equal.  If if you can, try a few Bachs... if you cannot, get a Greg Black 1 1/2G or a Rath B 1.5 or Rath B 1.5W if you like a wider rim.

Chris Stearn

[ttf_EWadie99]

I'll say the reason(s) why I think the 1G isn't a good price per say:
Ultra thin rim - it just felt really uncomfortable on my face and felt like a cookie cutter. 
Sound - I know it's an objective reason but for me, it was a little overkill when playing.
I know that it's not a bad piece to everyone, but it just wasn't for me.  If the OP wants to try the 1G that's fine, I was just stating my personal experience.

I tried different pieces in similar size to the 1G and felt the Schilke 60 was a better piece for me in that size range after trying the wick 00AL and Bach 1G for the non expensive brands compared to others popular these days.  I really could of went more into depth on my opinion on said mouthpiece.

[ttf_bonesmarsh]

Pete-

Please read with comprehension, and read as much as possible, bearing in mind that all posts are not created equal. You've now had the opinions of the finest of professional teachers who has had many many professional players leave their studio and go on to great careers as professionals-- and you've had the opinion of a high school student who may have possibly had two lessons, and has access to a computer and and their own opinion.

Read the posters bio's. Read with comprehension.
Thanks.

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: bonesmarsh on Yesterday at 05:29 PM
Read with comprehension.
Thanks.

Indeed...

Occupation/School:    spy
clandestine operative

 

[ttf_GetzenBassPlayer]

If you are playing well on your current size, as Blast stated, it could be more of a situation where you need to try out a a bunch of pieces in that range. What happens to some who double on bass from tenor, they get a big piece to help with the valve range and then they can’t control the sound very well.

[ttf_peteriley]

Thanks for the input guys. I think I'll keep an eye out for a cheap 1G - or a 1-1/4 G, which might be a good bridge from the 1-1/2G.

[ttf_savio]

Quote from: peteriley on Today at 06:28 AMThanks for the input guys. I think I'll keep an eye out for a cheap 1G - or a 1-1/4 G, which might be a good bridge from the 1-1/2G.

Or just keep your 1 1\2 g. Not a bad choice. And you save the money for a lesson.

Leif

[ttf_hyperbolica]

Quote from: peteriley on Today at 06:28 AMThanks for the input guys. I think I'll keep an eye out for a cheap 1G - or a 1-1/4 G, which might be a good bridge from the 1-1/2G.
I use a 1 1/4G as my daily mpc on bass. It allows me to get the sound without compromising too much upper register or clarity overall.

[ttf_boneagain]

Quote from: peteriley on Today at 06:28 AMThanks for the input guys. I think I'll keep an eye out for a cheap 1G - or a 1-1/4 G, which might be a good bridge from the 1-1/2G.

Can you specify what does NOT work for you with the 1 1/2G?  If, for example, you can't get a big enough sound after a couple months on a 1 1/2G, you will ONLY get a diffuse, woofy sound on a bigger mouthpiece.  There is a LOT to adapt to on a bass, coming from even a large bore tenor. 

As I mentioned above, searching other mouthpieces without a specific and reasoned objective in mind is an exercise in futility.

[ttf_Matt K]

The Schilke 59 is also rather popular. Popular enough that some of Doug's popular bass rims are described in direct comparison or as a similarity between them:

QuoteLB 112 similar to Schilke 59, a little larger than Bach 1.25G (28.5mm)
LB 113 between 112 and 114 (28.7mm)
LB 114 copy of Schilke 60, similar size to some Bach 1G, but flatter (29mm)
LB 115 between 114 and 116 (29.2mm)
LB 116 larger than Schilke 60, same shape (29.5mm)
Granted, the Schilke 59 is a little bit larger, but a lot of players like the shape. Including myself and I'm not a fan at all of Schilke's tenor pieces.  I find that the 59 doesn't feel much bigger than the 1.5 to me such that there's is basically an absolute advantage for anything with that shape over most of the Bach pieces.  I really hate the feel of the 1G but don't mind other comparables (Schilke 60/Elliott 114, etc.)

For what it's worth, I went through a similar transition. I was a tenor player for a very long time, though I doubled on bass.  Around last fall, I started doing almost exclusively bass.  Just so happened that where I lived there weren't any bass players around so I became the default.  I used the 104N/K Elliott combination I'd been using to double on at first... then a Mt. Vernon 2G and a Faxx 1.5. Sound on them was fine. I really liked the 2G sound, but the rim just wasn't big enough for some of the stuff I was doing (e.g. Tuba parts; pedal Ds. Ugh!).  I ended up on an LB111/L/L8 after only a few months.  Granted, I had pretty good chops before hand for an amateur which made it easier. 

So at any rate, I'd at least keep my eyes out or consider a Schilke 58 or 59 or perhaps one of Doug's pieces. Or just bite the bullet and hit Doug up for advice.  It's more expensive but his return policy is really generous and you can A/B compare stuff so you aren't guessing which element of a piece works and what doesn't.  It might not work better than a Bach 1.5 for you. But the Shilke's (and actually Yamaha which are fairly similar) are inexpensive enough that playing on one for a week should give you an indicator that you like them or not.  Heck, it took literally a single note for me to know that.

EDIT:
Literally the next post in my feed was a classified ad selling some Yamaha bass pieces.

[ttf_JimArcher]

My current 2¢.  I may have posted this before.  I've played the same Bach double trigger in-line bass since 2000 - it came with a Bach 1G - I was restarting that year so I stuck with it - ever since. Still playing third 'bone in several groups.  Last fall I joined another dixieland group (played Dixie before for a few years on an Olds P-16 with an appropriate Olds mp - it folded due to several (other's) health reasons), been using the bass with a 6 1/2 A 'piece - works ok on the needed high range.  This fits mostly in the "whatever works" category.   

[ttf_robcat2075]

Of all the answers, I like "you won't know until you try it," but I'll add that you won't know after you try it either. Not right away.

The manly men will tell you they can pop any mouthpiece on and give a verdict but i don't believe them. 

After I went from a starter bass trombone mouthpiece to a Schilke 60, similar in size to the Bach 1G being discussed, it took me about three months to put basic trombone playing back together. After another year or two knowledgeable musicians and trombone players started volunteering that they really liked my sound.

There was a long time between the new mouthpiece and being better off that I was before.

But was it the mouthpiece that got me the better sound or that I was spending four hours a day working on that sound? There's no way to go back in time and do a controlled test.

35 years later, I don't play 4 hours a day anymore and it's hard to stay on top of this thing. Things would probably be easier with something smaller but I've tried that and it doesn't feel right.  I'm stuck with what I've got.

I think these large bass trombone mouthpieces work, but they are for people who are going to burn the bridge and leave tenor playing behind and make a devoted run at bass trombone playing and not just dabble at it.

[ttf_Matt K]

Using shoes that fit you hardly makes you more manly than another.  (Unlike skinny jeans).  Likewise, I think there is oft an assumption that at a certain point you'll become physiologically more adaptable to a piece by dint of exposure to it. And that's true to some extent as the soft machine is pretty incredible.  But there are many time frames to look at. In simplest terms, I consider short term and long term.

When I put a piece on my face, I can immediately tell if I'll be able to finish the gig tonight on it or not.  I can immediately tell if its comfortable or not. I can tell if I'll hate my life practicing on it and get discouraged until I stop using it.  I had a Schilke 51 that was like that.  My high school teacher put me on it and had me play it for a month.  I barely practiced at all. It was physically uncomfortable for me to play at all.  Easily the worst mouthpiece I've ever tried - for me.

What I can't tell is how effective that piece will be in 1 week, month, year, etc.  I've been surprised at how easy larger bass rims are coming from being exclusively a tenor player in such a short time period, for example. But anything I play has met some minimal level of a combination of sound, flexibility, stamina, and comfort.

I would be shocked if someone couldn't tell if, an extreme example, this mouthpiece wouldn't work for them in the long run before even playing a note.

In other words, if two pieces are different, and the 1.5 and 59 are definitely different in many aspects, one of them is going to work better. Probably not just different, but better. But a lot of players are on one of those two sizes. And yeah, after practicing for a few years you'll probably hear the nuance and they'll go to being different.  Until then, trying a few of the most popular sizes and going with the one that immediately provides the best compromise doesn't seem like a particularly radical suggestion. 

[ttf_schlitzbeer]

I spent my younger years playing a Schilke 60. I’ve always liked the Mark I from GW. What has ended up being more practical because of the day job, post military bands, is a 1 1/4. I’ve got several, a Conn 1 1/4h, a CKB 1 1/4h, and a Rath B 1 1/4w. The Rath and Conn are in the pouch, in the case. Please, never post any videos of y’all wearing skinny jeans, playing a bass bone.

[ttf_peteriley]

Thanks again guys for the suggestions. I think I'll keep working with the 1-1/2 G, but keep an eye out on Ebay/Amazon for a cheap 1.25, then 1G to try out. I have been buzzing with a Kelly tuba MP (as recommended here) and that's helped a lot open up the lower notes on the 1-1/2 G when free buzzing, so perhaps it won't be too much of a shock to go to a larger MP eventually, esp. if the payoff is an even fuller sound (although I'm quite happy with the sound now).

[ttf_peteriley]

Thanks again guys for the suggestions. I think I'll keep working with the 1-1/2 G, but keep an eye out on Ebay/Amazon for a cheap 1.25, then 1G to try out. I have been buzzing with a Kelly tuba MP (as recommended here) and that's helped a lot open up the lower notes on the 1-1/2 G when free buzzing, so perhaps it won't be too much of a shock to go to a larger MP eventually, esp. if the payoff is an even fuller sound (although I'm quite happy with the sound now).