Arranger questions

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:35 pm

Hi there

So I am working my way through Dick Groves "Arranging Concepts" and there is some stuff I don't understand. Although it seems pretty basic...

On page 121, 64)a he says:
"If the composition you are arranging is based on a Mixolydian scale or mode, you can make it the thematic material for the contrapuntal voice, or work out your own counter melody from the scale."

- My questions: How do I determine in wich mode a tune is? Once I know that, will I use only that mode to write other voices?

On pages 94 and 95 he speaks about Passing tones and Neighboring tones.
- What's the difference and why is it important to know?

Looking forward to your help!

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:28 pm

Quote from: cozzagiorgi on Aug 05, 2017, 12:35PM
- My questions: How do I determine in wich mode a tune is?

Compare the tonic to the notes of the scale being used. For example if the notes appear to be C major (no flats or sharps) but the tonic is really G, then you have Mixolydian mode.

Mixolydian is a scale that starts on the fifth of a "major" scale set of notes.

C major scale

G Mixolydian scale

Same set of pitches (same "key" signature) but different starting point (tonic)

If the Key signature is three flats (looks like Eb major) but the tonic is Bb then you have Bb Mixolydian.

QuoteOn pages 94 and 95 he speaks about Passing tones and Neighboring tones.
- What's the difference and why is it important to know?

I believe a passing tone is like a note between two chord notes. The D would be a passing tone here in a C major harmony.

A neighboring tone? I think that's when you leave and return to a note . The D would be a "neighboring" tone rather than "passing" in this line...

Someone correct me if I am wrong on this.

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:15 pm

"My questions: How do I determine in wich mode a tune is? Once I know that, will I use only that mode to write other voices? "

Usually the chord progression will give you a hint as to what mode a tune is. Since every mode has one signature note that that defines the character of the mode the tune is in. The chord progression should include movement that includes that one character note as part of the progression.
Here are some common progressions that characterize each mode:

Ionian- the major 3rd, secondly the major 7th define the mode: C, Am, Dm, G7, etc...
Dorian- the natural 6h defines the mode. Cm, F7, G9 (<- the natural 6th is "A" and is included as a chord tone in F7, G9 etc.)
Phrygian- b2 and b6 define the mode. C, F, G, Db (Db contains the b2 and b6. The G chord is playing a dominant function in this example,etc)
Lydian- the #11 defines the mode. F, Em, Bm7b5, CMaj9
Mixolydian- b7 defines the mode. F, Eb, D, C...or F, Bb, Eb, Cm (if Cm is used as a chord back to tonic, will usually be C7)
Aeolian- b6 defines the mode. F, Db, C........
Locrian (typically not uses as a tonal center for a song, but would be characterized by b5, b2....)
etc....

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:22 am

Ok, so speaking about the modes, what mode is this tune in?

https://app.box.com/s/66l6907fhz1bn95qdod2r0lxx8kzq1a5

Using Robcats technique: Clef signature is Ab, but I think it's written in Fmin. Am I right about that? Maybe a bad example because no special mode? Is the tune simply written in Harmonic Minor?

Using Arrowheads technique: Fm is: F, Ab, C / Fdim is F, Ab, Cb / Bbm is Bb, Db, F. How to go from there?

Sorry if I am asking stupid questions...

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:45 am

I see it as two parts.

I say the first section (the "verse"?) is essentially F minor and the second ("chorus") is A flat major (relative major to F minor).

The frequent C7 (dominant 7th) leading to Fm in the first section and Eb7 leading to Ab in the second are fairly strong markers of tonality.

The composers have cleverly used some on-the-beat non-harmonic neighbor and passing tones in the melody to create a middle-eastern effect but I still think this is F minor and Ab major

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:13 am

Thank you. I have the same questions as cozza, so all this discussion is of value to more than him.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:42 am

Quote from: cozzagiorgi on Aug 05, 2017, 12:35PM
On page 121, 64)a he says:
"If the composition you are arranging is based on a Mixolydian scale or mode, you can make it the thematic material for the contrapuntal voice, or work out your own counter melody from the scale."

My question... Does he mean you can't do that in other modes?

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:21 pm

No, if i understand it right, he means you should use this mode for your arrangement.

If your piece is in lydian, you should continue to use that mode.

ttf_Graham Martin · Post by **ttf_Graham Martin** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:43 pm

Back to the first part of your original questions -

I recommend that you read from page 59 of Dick Groves book, where he shows the different scales. Item '36)' has all the Modal Scales.

Also pertinent is his comment:

"45) These altered scales are more applicable from a compositional standpoint. However, if you are arranging a composition based on one of these altered scales, an understanding of the scale is, of course, critical in determining melodic lines and diatonic chords."
(my underline)

Also applicable, I think, is a comment by Jerry Coker in his book "A Guide to Jazz Composition and Arranging", where he says,

"The significance to the reader, with regard to learning which chord-types (I think we can read 'modes') are fashionable, should be obvious. We need to know which sonorities are shaping the sounds being used by the best of today's composers, bringing us closer to understanding the details of their styles, thereby enhancing the chances for positive responses to our own music. Conversely, we risk sounding old-fashioned if we focus too much on yesterday's substance."

The only thing I can add is that, I have some 16 books (mostly tomes) written by the very best arrangers and hardly any of them mention 'modes' as even being an arranging consideration. I think that probably is due to that last comment by Jerry Coker. Its a fashion thing.

Personally, I only arrange for bands playing in the old Swing style and I have not much use for fashionable modes.

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:48 pm

Using Arrowheads technique: Fm is: F, Ab, C / Fdim is F, Ab, Cb / Bbm is Bb, Db, F. How to go from there?

You know it's Aeolian because of the key signature. But if you didn't have the signature and just had those chords in front of you
Fm, Bbm (i, iv)
It's the Bbm chord that gives it away, because the 3rd of the chord is a Db, which compared to the tonic chord (Fm) is a b6th. A b6th is the signature note for Aeolian mode. Then it switches to relative Major, Ab Ionian. All the other chords are either turnarounds or passing chords, especially the diminished chords.

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:40 am

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Yesterday at 05:48 PM

You know it's Aeolian because of the key signature.

I don't get it. How do you know it's Aeolian from the key signature?

@Graham: Does that mean I can completely ignore in wich mode a piece is written to make an arrangement?

Let's say, I'd want to arrange this piece in a really "oriental" style. How would you go about it? Any Chords I can use particularly well? Another mode to use?

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:26 am

I don't get it. How do you know it's Aeolian from the key signature?

Let me amend my previous comment, there are several clues to look for, and remember I'm just referring to the first 16 measures here:

Comparing the key signature (4 flats) to the first chord in the measure (Fm)
The general chord outline is i to iv
Look at that F diminished chord in measure 2. A diminished chord that replaces the "i" is just a delayed resolution chord (the composer decided to get a little fancy here)
The Db in the key signature- it can't be in the "key of" Dorian right- Dorian has a natural sixth. It HAS to be Aeolian (as in, pure minor). You know it's not Phrygian because there's no b2, etc etc
Also, look at the title of the piece- Afghanistan; that tells you that there's probably going to be a little "exotic" in the melody and chord structure
but...
Reviewing the first 16 measures, the chord structure is basically:
i, iv, i, V7 (very simple!; ignore the Fdim and Bb7; those are just passing/secondary dominant chords). The iv chord brings out the aeolian mode. The iv chord spelled out is Bb, Db, F
Again, pay attention to that Db; it's a b6th interval, compared to the first chord (Fm).

If this song was in Dorian minor, you'd have a different key signature and progression.

It's important to note that there's a difference between a tune being in "the key of" a mode, whereas a lot of folks refer to modes as relative to a major scale (Dm, G7, C....or C, Am, Dm, G7, C.....etc....)

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:34 am

Quote from: Arrowhead99 on Today at 08:26 AM
Again, pay attention to that Db; it's a b6th interval, compared to the tonic of the song.

Something I only now realized about Arrowhead's remarks: when he writes something like "b6th" he means "flat 6th".

We really ought to get some flat and sharp smileys around here.

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:14 am

So, basically you are looking for the "basic chord structure" and look for the signature interval from the tonic to one of the modes, right?

Can we do the exercise with another tune?

Going from letter A of this tune: https://app.box.com/s/zqiwhy70xwt9jxt8trcsl9oxmeicuz5w

It is clear, the tune is written in Gmin. The chord structure is pretty simple I,V,I,IV. Right? So I assume G is the tonic.
Gmin is: G, Bb, D
D7 is: D, F#, A, C
Cmin is: C, Eb, G

I think I'm all wrong here because I still can't find anything...

ttf_Andrew Meronek · Post by **ttf_Andrew Meronek** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:25 am

The D7 implies a harmonic minor, with the F# being the raised 7th of that mode, but otherwise you're right.

Your first example, Afghanistan, is a bit trickier because the A section changes modes in measure 5 to Bb melodic minor, then goes back to F harmonic minor in m. 7, plus that B natural is really just a passing tone, just as the F diminished chord at that point is a passing chord. Just something to throw the ear a curve and generate interest.

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:46 am

Ok, I slowly get it. But how do I know that I can ignore the Cmin?

ttf_Arrowhead99 · Post by **ttf_Arrowhead99** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:50 am

It is clear, the tune is written in Gmin. The chord structure is pretty simple I,V,I,IV. Right? So I assume G is the tonic.

Using Roman numeral notation at rehearsal marking "A", it would be i, V7, i, iv
Remember a capital letter implies a Major 3rd interval between the tonic and 3rd of a chord; a lowercase letters implies a minor 3rd interval....
Again, like Afghanistan, there are several clues to finding the mode of the song; ofcourse there's the key signature with two flats and the first chord is Gm...hmm....okay...now look at measure 4. It's a Cm chord. A Cm chord spelled out is C, Eb, G. It's the Eb that further clarifies it...An Eb compared to the i chord (Gm) is a flat 6th interval. Bingo! We got it! Aeolian

Now look at the end of the tune, it all of sudden switches to parallel Major (G,G,D7,G) but for that last chord it actually goes back to minor- how do we know? The last chord is F7; spelled out is F, A, C, Eb <- that chord tone implies a switch back to minor mode.

ttf_Graham Martin · Post by **ttf_Graham Martin** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:24 pm

Quote from: cozzagiorgi on Today at 02:40 AMI don't get it. How do you know it's Aeolian from the key signature?

@Graham: Does that mean I can completely ignore in wich mode a piece is written to make an arrangement?

Let's say, I'd want to arrange this piece in a really "oriental" style. How would you go about it? Any Chords I can use particularly well? Another mode to use?

All I can say is that most of the arranger's books I have read do not seem to consider that modes have a great importance. However, if you were arranging a piece in a non-western music style, as you mention, you would have to use an appropriate scale (mode) and related chords. There are also rhythmic considerations. In my kind of jazz and swing music the chord progressions are all important in my kind of arranging and I do not use the approach of specific modes or tonal fields.

I will say that a knowledge of which scale fits a particular segment of chord progression is sometimes important for the OP's other question about Passing tones and Neighboring tones. These can be diatonic, chromatic or a combination of both. I mainly use my ear to determine these and once again rhythmic considerations are important.

I'm interested to hear what Doug has to say about this.

ttf_Andrew Meronek · Post by **ttf_Andrew Meronek** » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:14 pm

Quote from: Graham Martin on Aug 07, 2017, 05:24PMAll I can say is that most of the arranger's books I have read do not seem to consider that modes have a great importance.

Not that I've cracked an arranger's book in a while, but from my memory modes are supremely important. They certainly are in any actual writing I study or do. Maybe emphasis on knowing modes is assumed from people trying arranging, if such a person has already spent a lot of time learning the basics of improvisation?

Another tip: it's generally safe to ignore fully diminished chords when interpreting a mode. Diminished chords are very handy as a "color" harmony that can fit almost any circumstance (as well as simplifying voice leading in some cases) so they're often used to help organize the harmony around a note outside of the established mode of a melody. That first tune, Afghanistan, is just one example of thousands where composers do that.

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:27 am

I think I understand how to determine the modes now and want to say thank you to all of you. Especially Arrowhead, because you had to explain a lot of times

I'll go on and try to arrange that Afghanistan tune (or at least a part of it) and see how it turns out. I'll post it here also.

ttf_cozzagiorgi · Post by **ttf_cozzagiorgi** » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:27 am

I think I understand how to determine the modes now and want to say thank you to all of you. Especially Arrowhead, because you had to explain a lot of times

I'll go on and try to arrange that Afghanistan tune (or at least a part of it) and see how it turns out. I'll post it here also.