Home improvement advice - light fixture

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:08 pm

One of the two fluourescent fixtures in my basement kitchen won't come on with new bulbs. It's been slow to start for some time. When I changed the tubes and hit the switch, the ends glowed orange for a moment but wouldn't start.

It's a two tube four foot T12, as are the other three (one in the kitchen, two upstairs). T12s are dirt cheap and they last a long time.

Most likely I have a bad ballast. I can probably still find a T12 ballast, but now might be the time to consider other options.

I could go to more modern fluorescents, T8s or T5s, or even an LED option. I'm getting up in age and started to think about what jobs I won't have to do again, long term solutions.

This is my practice room and I need good light, lots of it.

Any thoughts? LEDs are supposed to be long lived, but I'm skeptical. I'm sure the light output device does last, but it's driven by electronics like CFLs, and I've had very bad luck with those lifetimes.

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:55 pm

Your analogy to CFLs is misplaced.

LED tubes instead of fluorescent are fantastic - great, bright light quality, very long-lasting, low electricity consumption. I've had them in my garage for a few years, and the lighting is excellent. Just make sure you get the latest technology LEDs - older ones weren't so good.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:56 pm

I love LED bulbs. I've yet to have a single one burn out and I've been using them since before they were popular a few years ago. Some brands have warranties against burn outs within a few years. I just purchased some that have a 4 year warranty. If you use them at all regularly, even if they only last one year they will save you money over an incandescent bulb in electricity cost. Not sure how much more efficient they are than fluorescent though.

I know some are dimmable but I don't know if all are dimmable to be honest because I don't dim my bulbs ever. You'd have to research that if thats an issue.

I just picked up four 1650lumen soft white LED bulbs for my office after getting tired of having it be so dark in there powered only by florescent bulbs. If you weren't to look around, you could hardly tell that it wasn't coming from an open window or something. Better yet, it only takes 45w total for 6600 lumens! I just put them in cheap desk lamps too I'm sure if you had them put in the ceiling it would be even better.

ttf_gregs70 · Post by **ttf_gregs70** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:01 pm

If you like your current fixtures or just don't want the hassle of replacing them, you can get LED retrofit bulbs that replace the old fluorescent ones. When I run out of my supply of fluorescent bulbs, that is the way I'm going. For example"
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Feit-Electric-4-ft-T8-T12-17-Watt-Cool-White-Linear-LED-Light-Bulb-T48-841-LED-RP/206036836

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:07 pm

Your problem may not be the ballast (unless you smell a very strong tarry odor). There is something called a Starter, which looks like a small cylinder. It mounts in a hole with a twist.

But if you want a new fixture, an LED setup should work great.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:51 pm

There two entirely different types of retrofit LED bulbs. One uses the original ballast, which is apparently shot. For the other kind you remove the ballast and wire it directly - I'm sure it comes with instructions. That's probably the easiest and most cost effective solution. There are other LED fixtures that look just like a 4' fluorescent fixture but the LED strip is permanent in it. I have one, it's very bright.

ttf_SilverBone · Post by **ttf_SilverBone** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:44 am

When my old fluorescents in the garage failed, I replaced the entire fixtures with new LED fixtures. They are wonderful. Cost a little more, but no more bulb changing, and they light very well.

ttf_gregs70 · Post by **ttf_gregs70** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:05 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 06, 2017, 07:51PMThere two entirely different types of retrofit LED bulbs. One uses the original ballast, which is apparently shot. For the other kind you remove the ballast and wire it directly - I'm sure it comes with instructions. That's probably the easiest and most cost effective solution. There are other LED fixtures that look just like a 4' fluorescent fixture but the LED strip is permanent in it. I have one, it's very bright.

What he said. The kits where you re-wire aren't difficult to install if you have basic skills. Bonus is that you don't have to worry about replacing ballasts or starters ever again.

ttf_jedrph · Post by **ttf_jedrph** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:52 am

something else to consider is using track lighting run from the original electrical box. The tracks come in 4' or 8' lengths with elbows/junctions etc and can be configured in any direction or layout, then each light is a unit and can be placed on the track at any point and aimed in any direction. The components should be available at your local HD/Lowes/lighting store etc. You can put as many or as few light fixtures as needed on each track. They are halogen lights. They do burn out but are easily replaceable. I have an H shaped configuration on in my back room and have 8 lights installed on it.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:41 am

Yeah, halogens are nice - they can heat your house in the winter.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:07 am

I've done halogens and track lighting in my old house.

My experience, they are great for putting a spot of light right where you need it, but horrible for the broad overall light I need in this room.

I'm a little concerned about the same problem for LEDs. I'm going to the big box stores this weekend and look at how they throw light. I like the Omni directional of the tubes.

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:43 am

Timothy (the OP) currently has fluorescent tubes that need replacement. If he wants to maintain that configuration, his best bets (to get good quality, reliable, robust, long-lived, energy-efficient light) are to:
Replace the tubes with retrofit LED tubes which bypass the existing ballast and starter, or
Replace the old flourescent tube fixture with an easy-to-install state-of-the art LED tube fixture.

Installing track lights or LED bulbs would amount to a more considerable remodel task (best accomplished by an electrician or experienced qualified do-it-yourselfer), which is probably not what Timothy wants to take on. By the way, there are LED bulbs, suitable for "can light" fixtures, which have a pretty broad "floodlight" rather than "spotlight" spread, that provide excellent quality lighting, and use about 15%-20% of the electricity of the "equivalent" (similar lumens) incandescent, and about 50% of the "equivalent" fluorescent.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:25 pm

LEDs are more than twice as efficient as fluorescents.

They can be configured to provide 360 degrees of light or as narrow a beam as you like. Whatever you can do with any other light you can do with LEDs except keep hamburgers warm at McDonalds.

They are also MUCH more environmentally than fluorescents in almost every imaginable way. Less energy, no mercury, cleaner manufacturing, no ballasts, no phosphorus.

Most decent brands have 20,000 hr ratings on them. That's about 13 years with 4 hours of use a day. I expect they will last longer than that though. I have an LED light that has 30 years of continuous (24 hrs/day) use on it. I made it myself from 80 amber LEDs and two resistors on a perforated breadboard. It draws only 2.4 watts and is used to light the interior of a small pumphouse.

The Hydro producer here has had some promotions to get folks to switch over to LED lights and the last 2 or 3 years they have been handing out coupons that allow you to buy the 60W equivalent bulbs for $1 a piece. Last year I replaced all 102 light bulbs in our house (yeah, I have that many!!!??) with LEDs and our electric bill dropped by 15%. In the Garage I replaced the 4 bulbs there with 16 LED bulbs. It is sure nice and bright in there when I have to work on a bike or car, yet it takes 1/2 of the electricity it did before. LEDs are freaking great!

ttf_octavposaune · Post by **ttf_octavposaune** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:54 pm

Timothy42B,

I bought a house 4 years ago and refitting all 4' fixtures to T8 bulbs and solid state ballasts.

I will never re ballast another 4' fixture because the cost of led replacements at costco is now so low that it makes no sense to retrofit old fixture.

T8 fixtures with modern ballasts don't flicker and they turn on right away. T8s will still be dim in cold temps and take 2-5 minutes to get to full brightness

The 4' lights I get from Costco are great! Very white light, and they are aimed down so no light being wasted going up into the fixture. I've had no issue at all with my Costco 4' leds.

Benn

ttf_Bruce the budgie · Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:50 pm

Another

for LED's here. Last fall we moved into a house resembling a TARDIS in that it's much bigger on the inside than outward appearance might indicate. There were a lot of compact fluorescent bulbs sinking into dimness, and a nice young lady from the state's energy conservation agency (funded in large part by the electric company, I believe) issued us a big box of LED replacements. As an old electron-pusher, I recognized her as a sharp cookie who knew her way around house wiring and appliances... My own sense of LED lamps, as seen in today's market, is that they are AFOAL more reliable and longer-lasting than the coiled mercury-filled CFL monstrosities they replaced. A lot of that assessment is based on simple parts count; fewer opportunities for failure.

The groundmost floor on this side-hill structure is workshop space for me and an artistic woodcarver. It's got good natural light during the day, and for evening use we bought a bunch of four-foot "two-tube" 40W LED ceiling danglers. They kick butt in every respect, including color temperature. I have to be careful how I lean back and stretch, because if I look directly at them, I get an after-image of dots all in lines. I can live with that.

ttf_amichael · Post by **ttf_amichael** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 6:01 pm

Our garage has a few two tube 4' led fixtures. They are great.

The rest of the house is all Philips Slimsurface LED ceiling lighting. They sort of look like a diffuser over a recessed lamp but are just a disk on the ceiling with a standard electric box above. The light is great and we barely have any bulbs in the house except for a couple of table lamps.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:17 am

You have convinced me to take a harder look at LED replacements before deciding.

Thanks!

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:04 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 09, 2017, 05:17AMYou have convinced me to take a harder look at LED replacements before deciding.

Thanks!

I recommend playing the bonefire rehearsal tomorrow and talking to our mutual friend and authority on low power lighting

Please remind me to share my experience with Honeywell lights from Sam's (about 75% positive so far.... but may be looking at a warranty issue on one unit.) No problem getting good area lighting in my garage... and they come on immediately in cold (for down here) weather.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:14 am

I'll be there.

I have to, I have the music.

Either way I go, I'll be rid of that annoying 60 Hz buzz from the old magnetic ballast.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:01 pm

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 09, 2017, 09:14AMI'll be there.

I have to, I have the music.

Either way I go, I'll be rid of that annoying 60 Hz buzz from the old magnetic ballast.

... then what will you tune too?

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:21 pm

You beat me to it

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:26 am

Quote from: boneagain on Jun 09, 2017, 03:01PM... then what will you tune too?

Guess you will all have to tune to me!

I stopped by Home Depot last night. The displays were hard to compare, I need to look at some working lights of both kinds.

I also checked prices of various tubes.

If my ballast worked, I could replace tubes with LED for about $5 each. But it doesn't work.

I can adjust the wiring and replace tubes with LED for about $15 each.

Or I can buy a T8 ballast and stay with regular tubes at between $15 and $30 for the ballast.

I don't know if the lumen ratings on the box can be trusted, but here's what they claim:

T12 tubes, 2600 lumens.

LED tubes on existing ballast, 2100 lumens.

LED replacements that don't need ballast, 1700 lumens.

T8 tube and new ballast, 2800 lumens.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:17 am

There's more stuff available than what Home Depot carries. Look online or check an electrical supply place. I'd go with direct wire bulbs. They can be cheaper and brighter than what you found.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:05 am

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 10, 2017, 05:26AM
I don't know if the lumen ratings on the box can be trusted, but here's what they claim:

Lumen ratings can be deceiving, especially for directed light. Lumen is a measure of the total amount of light emitted by a source. An ordinary florescent tube radiates light 360 degrees around its axis so much of it gets wasted by being sent into the fixture or in some other useless direction. The replacement LED tubes with only 1700 lumens may well be built to direct all of there light in a useful direction and may very well provide brighter usable light

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:48 am

I learned something today, there's a difference between shunted and nonshunted sockets or tombstones.

ttf_Posaunus · Post by **ttf_Posaunus** » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:06 pm

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jun 10, 2017, 07:17AMThere's more stuff available than what Home Depot carries. Look online or check an electrical supply place. I'd go with direct wire bulbs. They can be cheaper and brighter than what you found.

Doug's right. Go with the latest technology, and install new, easy-to-mount new LED fixtures with bright tubes. All the light shines downward where you need it. And you'll love the (amount and quality) of the light (while paying very little for it in terms of electricity consumption) - and you won't have to think about replacing the LED tubes for a decade or two.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 4:55 am

I'm not satisfied with what I've seen in the local big box stores. Since I have another fixture in that room that's still working, I have time to find something better.

Things I learned:
I have unshunted tombstones, so I could go direct wire easily.

I could also go the ballast plus plug-and-play route by externally shunting with proper choice of LED tube. I had been leaning this direction because it allows snap-back, the return to a T8 fluorescent if I don't like LEDs. But it turns out electronic ballasts don't last as long as the magnetic ones that have been in there for decades, and LED tubes do cause wear.

That makes direct wire more attractive. However, some tombstone manufacturers do not approve of line current being applied directly, and say they are not UL certified for this use.

So now a new LED fixture is back on the table.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:50 am

I changed my mind again.

I like the way a new fixture looks. But my research showed some skepticism about the longevity of LEDs. If I go to a dedicated fixture and it fails, it may not be fixable. Whereas if I stay with T8s and they don't last, there are lots of options.

I found some direct wire tubes on sale half price and couldn't pass it up. I got two tubes for the price of the cheapest ballast had I decided to go back to fluorescents. It was about $15 total.

I put them in last night. It took about an hour. It could have taken 5 minutes, but I completely disassembled everything down to the tombstones to be sure how they were wired, and then things didn't want to fit back together.

Without the troffer they are plenty bright. The troffer has yellowed with age and does cut the light a bit.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:50 am

I changed my mind again.

I like the way a new fixture looks. But my research showed some skepticism about the longevity of LEDs. If I go to a dedicated fixture and it fails, it may not be fixable. Whereas if I stay with T8s and they don't last, there are lots of options.

I found some direct wire tubes on sale half price and couldn't pass it up. I got two tubes for the price of the cheapest ballast had I decided to go back to fluorescents. It was about $15 total.

I put them in last night. It took about an hour. It could have taken 5 minutes, but I completely disassembled everything down to the tombstones to be sure how they were wired, and then things didn't want to fit back together.

Without the troffer they are plenty bright. The troffer has yellowed with age and does cut the light a bit.