Heavy .508 bore
- Sniffynose
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Heavy .508 bore
I have a Yamaha 891z and a King 3b. Both are great, but very light.
Does anyone know of another .508 bore horn that is heavier and plays with a little more power?
Does anyone know of another .508 bore horn that is heavier and plays with a little more power?
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
3b silver sonic
- DaveAshley
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Lawler 3 with .025 gauge bell stem and bronze flare would be my idea of a "power" setup.
- Burgerbob
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
891Z is not a light horn, IMO. It's on the heavier side of the spectrum.
Shires set up a certain way will be even heavier/more legit.
3BSS is best of both worlds IMO, like Trevor said.
Shires set up a certain way will be even heavier/more legit.
3BSS is best of both worlds IMO, like Trevor said.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Selmer Bolero, Olds Recording
- Sniffynose
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Thanks for chiming in gentlemen.
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
I have the Edwards .508 model that Steve Weist plays - sorry, can't remember the bell # off the top of my head, but the info is on their website. Really nice "solid" small bore horn that can play a lot of situations, including orchestra or band concerts with a mix of classical and jazz style charts.
Jim Scott
Jim Scott
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
I have both the Yamaha 891Z and a 70's King 3B and would say neither of them are particularly light.
As for power, both horns have it in spades with the right mouthpiece set up!
Maybe you should move up a size if you disagree?
As for power, both horns have it in spades with the right mouthpiece set up!
Maybe you should move up a size if you disagree?
- harrisonreed
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
3BFSS is even heavier, fwiw
- BGuttman
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Not a 0.508, but the Conn "Razorbell" 44H has a rather thick bell even if it has no bell rim.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
A good old Bach 16M.....good enough for the LA studio players who have to be super versatile.
Or, even smaller horns that play 'heavy' when needed....Bach 12, Bach 6, Bach 8
The Bach 16 duo-bore might be what you need, though.
Or, even smaller horns that play 'heavy' when needed....Bach 12, Bach 6, Bach 8
The Bach 16 duo-bore might be what you need, though.
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
If you'd consider 0.500" also, how about a Conn 48H?
At one point I had a 48H and a 3BSS for side-by-side comparison, in my opinion they could both take a lot of air and deliver a powerful sound. If I didn't know the specs, I really doubt I could have picked out one as being 0.500" and the other 0.508". At lower dynamics, I preferred the greater subtlety of the 3BSS, but for the heavy stuff, a 48h at significnatly lower cost than a 3BSS is an interesting option.
Wasn't there also a King Tempo (the one with curved brace) with 8" nickel-silver bell that should also be compatible with a 3B slide?
At one point I had a 48H and a 3BSS for side-by-side comparison, in my opinion they could both take a lot of air and deliver a powerful sound. If I didn't know the specs, I really doubt I could have picked out one as being 0.500" and the other 0.508". At lower dynamics, I preferred the greater subtlety of the 3BSS, but for the heavy stuff, a 48h at significnatly lower cost than a 3BSS is an interesting option.
Wasn't there also a King Tempo (the one with curved brace) with 8" nickel-silver bell that should also be compatible with a 3B slide?
- Vegastokc
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Anything made by Reynolds pre-1963. Those things are solid.
Although they jump right over .508 so the choice is .500 or .520.
Although they jump right over .508 so the choice is .500 or .520.
Michael Saffier
I ate twice as much lasagna as I should have...
I ate twice as much lasagna as I should have...
- MagnumH
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Some eyes will roll, but I suggest the BAC Paseo or Paseo W6 as well - .500/.508 dual. I'm a powerful player and that thing takes it all and then some. Beautiful even tone across the whole range too. Worth trying if you're somewhere you can get your hands on one.
Matt Hawke
Trombonist/Arranger/Bandleader
White Hot Brass Band // The Sideways // The Brass Machine
Stable: BAC Paseo W6 w/ DE MTN102 B+3; King 3B/F w/ Bach 4C; King 2B w/ King 12C
Trombonist/Arranger/Bandleader
White Hot Brass Band // The Sideways // The Brass Machine
Stable: BAC Paseo W6 w/ DE MTN102 B+3; King 3B/F w/ Bach 4C; King 2B w/ King 12C
- MagnumH
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
If it's just in terms of physical weight...a 3BF (or a 3BFSS as mentioned) will definitely add some. Anything with a cut bell too, should add weight and stability at power, so a Lawler is a great shout there (J Landress in NYC has one on sale for $2200 just now) or you could even consider trying to get a cut bell for the 3B, since parts for that are plentiful enough!
Matt Hawke
Trombonist/Arranger/Bandleader
White Hot Brass Band // The Sideways // The Brass Machine
Stable: BAC Paseo W6 w/ DE MTN102 B+3; King 3B/F w/ Bach 4C; King 2B w/ King 12C
Trombonist/Arranger/Bandleader
White Hot Brass Band // The Sideways // The Brass Machine
Stable: BAC Paseo W6 w/ DE MTN102 B+3; King 3B/F w/ Bach 4C; King 2B w/ King 12C
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Ditto on the Lawler 3!
- Burgerbob
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Some Bachs are like that... But I wouldn't characterize most of them that way. They're "darker," more colorful maybe, but my 16M isn't heavier playing than my rather light 3B/F.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Yes.... depends on the Bach horn....and type of slide for sure.
I used to have a Bach 12 with a brass slide that could hold it's own in any legit situation (well...for shows, quintets, pit use, even Mozart Requiem)
And now if I put the 16 brass duo-bore slide on my 16M bell, it's an entirely different beast than with my nickel light 16M slide. Almost 'too heavy' and not as nimble as the straight bore 16M slide. (...and heavy as in I can barely hold it upright...kills my hand and tendons after awhile!)
In fairness, I only know Bachs and Kings in small bores. Used to have a HW White 2B that I'd kill to get hold of again! Could play anything with that horn.....damn. Was great for Broadway pit show parts too.
I used to have a Bach 12 with a brass slide that could hold it's own in any legit situation (well...for shows, quintets, pit use, even Mozart Requiem)
And now if I put the 16 brass duo-bore slide on my 16M bell, it's an entirely different beast than with my nickel light 16M slide. Almost 'too heavy' and not as nimble as the straight bore 16M slide. (...and heavy as in I can barely hold it upright...kills my hand and tendons after awhile!)
In fairness, I only know Bachs and Kings in small bores. Used to have a HW White 2B that I'd kill to get hold of again! Could play anything with that horn.....damn. Was great for Broadway pit show parts too.
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
We can't forget that different mouthpieces bring out different characteristics of any horn too!
Like, some mouthpiece that only brings out low/mid overtone colors and has a real heavy blank that really holds your chops together when playing loud could make your small bore horn sound pretty 'heavy' compared to sticking a lightweight mouthpiece in it.
Remember the Denis Wick 'tone-booster'? It worked as advertised when used on a Wick mouthpiece. It could make a Wick 7C behave totally differently and turn your horn into a different animal.
Like, some mouthpiece that only brings out low/mid overtone colors and has a real heavy blank that really holds your chops together when playing loud could make your small bore horn sound pretty 'heavy' compared to sticking a lightweight mouthpiece in it.
Remember the Denis Wick 'tone-booster'? It worked as advertised when used on a Wick mouthpiece. It could make a Wick 7C behave totally differently and turn your horn into a different animal.
- Burgerbob
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
I'm borrowing a 12 at the moment that is almost... too legit. Massive sound, plays larger and louder than some 36s I have played. I actually can't imagine playing it in a big band setting... or much of anything else, actually. They're out there! But I wouldn't bet on finding one, even looking for it.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
- BigBadandBass
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- BGuttman
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
That is the Vocabell. It has the nickname "Razorbell" because it has no bell rim.BigBadandBass wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:08 pmThis is offtopic, but is that the same as a Vocabell?
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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- harrisonreed
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
This post reminded me. Why not try wrapping some of the self-adhesive (no glue) stretchy medical tape tightly around the throat of the bell? After a few wraps you can put some coins or metal pegs in and wrap around those as well. It will effectively give you a heavier bell that plays like a heavy bell, but for less than $10. And it's not permanent.Cmillar wrote: ↑Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:40 pm We can't forget that different mouthpieces bring out different characteristics of any horn too!
Like, some mouthpiece that only brings out low/mid overtone colors and has a real heavy blank that really holds your chops together when playing loud could make your small bore horn sound pretty 'heavy' compared to sticking a lightweight mouthpiece in it.
Remember the Denis Wick 'tone-booster'? It worked as advertised when used on a Wick mouthpiece. It could make a Wick 7C behave totally differently and turn your horn into a different animal.
- Sniffynose
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Great info, thanks!
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Conn 32h
Dual bore .507-.522 so a tad larger.
Heavy and powerful.
Dual bore .507-.522 so a tad larger.
Heavy and powerful.
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
If heft is your main criteria, then the 3B Silversonic is definitely the way to go unless you want to go custom. I'm sure Lawler or Shires could work something up. Rath does a fairly heavy nickle bell that plays really well, I kind of want one myself.
- Oslide
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
I'd second hyperbolica's vote, above, for an Olds Recording (.495/.510).
On TTF there was a thread (unfortunately lost along with large parts of TTF) where RolandJBarber investigated in much detail the loudest trombones available, and an Olds Recording was one of his favorites. Certainly worth a try!
On TTF there was a thread (unfortunately lost along with large parts of TTF) where RolandJBarber investigated in much detail the loudest trombones available, and an Olds Recording was one of his favorites. Certainly worth a try!
Ceterum censeo to fetch All of TTF
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Dear Sniffynose- For a new horn you want the Courtois 402T- .508, medium slide with sleeves plays heavier than most, total slide weight 561 grams, outer only is 244. Designed to play with plenty of energy and power!
- dukesboneman
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
I`ve had 2 heavy small bores over the years
My last Conn 32H had a really thick bell and the slide was almost cumbersome.
My 1st Bach 12 was the heaviest small horn I`ve ever picked up. But surprisingly nimble.
I loved the sound but it was almost as heavy as my 42BO
Both horns have moved on to homes where they are more appreciated
My last Conn 32H had a really thick bell and the slide was almost cumbersome.
My 1st Bach 12 was the heaviest small horn I`ve ever picked up. But surprisingly nimble.
I loved the sound but it was almost as heavy as my 42BO
Both horns have moved on to homes where they are more appreciated
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Saw someone mention a courtois, I have the 602 and 430tlr
Not sure either is Heavy but man they are fine horns !! Don’t get the credit or wide known recognition of some of the other brands , I’d definitely try a 402, I love my 2
Not sure either is Heavy but man they are fine horns !! Don’t get the credit or wide known recognition of some of the other brands , I’d definitely try a 402, I love my 2
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
I've got the Courtois ac402trr (508 bore) and it's on the light side, but a really, really fine horn.Trevorspaulding376 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:04 am Saw someone mention a courtois, I have the 602 and 430tlr
Not sure either is Heavy but man they are fine horns !! Don’t get the credit or wide known recognition of some of the other brands , I’d definitely try a 402, I love my 2
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
I found personally havy to play (harder) 3bs all of them... Yamaha never liked the sound... Actually I play and have endorsed by XO and the Fedchock 8 bell model are really easy (the most easy horn for me)... Sound are great but not havy like older... I found a good combination used a old 78h conn bell and a500 light weight slide (5h)a really good combination for me... The Williams 6 burbank for me are the king in the trombone world and I prefere for all around playing...
Re: Heavy .508 bore
If you want a powerful sound you will have to practise that...any KIng 3B will do the job, and a mouthpiece that is not too deep.
The trombone of some powerful players:
Gary Valente: KIng 2B SS,
Ray Anderson: Conn 8H, Amrein 9 EL, both large bore horns...now on KIng?
Joseph Bowie with Defunkt: Conn 6H
Frank Rosolino: Conn 6H
Steve Turre: Yamaha large bore
Jay Jay (master of projection and sound): 3B and Yamaha 695 (?)
The trombone of some powerful players:
Gary Valente: KIng 2B SS,
Ray Anderson: Conn 8H, Amrein 9 EL, both large bore horns...now on KIng?
Joseph Bowie with Defunkt: Conn 6H
Frank Rosolino: Conn 6H
Steve Turre: Yamaha large bore
Jay Jay (master of projection and sound): 3B and Yamaha 695 (?)
- dukesboneman
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
When I saw Joe Bowie play, he had two horns with him, A straight 4B and a Bach 42BO
Re: Heavy .508 bore
Yes, he switched to bigger horns in the 90ies or so...
- greenbean
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Powerful would be an understatement.
Tom in San Francisco
Currently playing...
Bach Corp 16M
Many French horns
Currently playing...
Bach Corp 16M
Many French horns
Re: Heavy .508 bore
Lol, I saw and heard him in the 90ies in Germany in a little club. With Ed Schuller, Kenny Martin and so on. I took a seat in the back of the club. When they started I wished good luck to the audience in front of his bell. When the second set started there were a lot of free chairs in the first rows, a kind of devasted area..
The other miracle power trombone was Joe Bowie. Defunkt made a soundcheck when we waited outside. About a hour, full energy. And I thought: why do they waste their power for a soundcheck?
Then they started, two hours. Then he made a break and I thought: Okay, they will play three tunes after that and than end of the concert.
They came back on stage and I left the concert after two further hours, exhausted, while they continued to play..
Bowie has a very strange kind of trombone playing (beside his singing and dancing and drinking and playing percussion) but the level of energy is (was) pure magic, I will never forget.
The other miracle power trombone was Joe Bowie. Defunkt made a soundcheck when we waited outside. About a hour, full energy. And I thought: why do they waste their power for a soundcheck?
Then they started, two hours. Then he made a break and I thought: Okay, they will play three tunes after that and than end of the concert.
They came back on stage and I left the concert after two further hours, exhausted, while they continued to play..
Bowie has a very strange kind of trombone playing (beside his singing and dancing and drinking and playing percussion) but the level of energy is (was) pure magic, I will never forget.
- dukesboneman
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
I saw Joe Bowie at the Bop Shop in Rochester, NY when he was on tour with Kahil El Zabar and the Ethnic Heritage Ensemble. The Band was setting up and I asked the set up guy if Joe Bowie was around, Then went and sat down. A while later he comes walking out in a dashiki and sat down right next to me. We talked for about 20 minutes about his horns, Defunkt, the current tour and Lester. Just a really nice guy and a powerful player
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Was able to hear 'Defunkt' in the mid-80's in Toronto at the old Zanzibar club on Queesn St. Wow....high powered funk with social statement. They were awesome. Elements of jazz, funk, you name it. Loved it. Kim Clark on bass I believe....she could lay it down.
I think Joe Bowie was playing a King 4B when I heard him. It looked bigger than a 3B.
I thought he'd split it open with his playing!
Went back with some earplugs the 2nd night. (We could stand and dance about 10 feet away from the band.)
I think Joe Bowie was playing a King 4B when I heard him. It looked bigger than a 3B.
I thought he'd split it open with his playing!
Went back with some earplugs the 2nd night. (We could stand and dance about 10 feet away from the band.)
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Selmer Bolero is actually a featherweight horn but does have a big sound! I agree that there is a lot of leverage in matching just the right mouthpiece to any horn, to get the most out of it. And if you have something with interchangeable leadpipes, that presents all kinds of cool choices.
For mass and weight, you cannot beat an older Besson. I don't know which model would be .508 bore (I have a .491 and a .523), but shop around for Sovereign or even the old Imperial models. Also the "numbered" series like 8-80, 6-60, etc. Built like TANKS. They sell so cheaply in the US that it's cost effective to do an overhaul if one is needed.
For mass and weight, you cannot beat an older Besson. I don't know which model would be .508 bore (I have a .491 and a .523), but shop around for Sovereign or even the old Imperial models. Also the "numbered" series like 8-80, 6-60, etc. Built like TANKS. They sell so cheaply in the US that it's cost effective to do an overhaul if one is needed.
King Jiggs 2BL
Olds Opera
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Olds Opera
Besson Sovereign Bb/F bass
Holton bass trumpet
B&H Imperial shepherd's crook cornet
- Sniffynose
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Got a ‘73 3B Silversonic and it is meeting the criteria I wanted, thanks for all your input.
I am also playing on a mouthpiece now with a wider inside diameter & bigger throat which is also a factor. Very happy with the mouthpiece change!
I am also playing on a mouthpiece now with a wider inside diameter & bigger throat which is also a factor. Very happy with the mouthpiece change!
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
I doubt there's a horn in this bore that you can play louder than a King 3B. The only limitation is the player, all these horns can play louder than our lips can drive them. There's nothing special about the trombone like bells they put on train horns.
- Finetales
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
3BSS is definitely heavier, but not necessarily louder. My yellow 3B played louder than the 2 3BSS I also tried when I bought it. But any 3B can knock walls down like little else can...there's a reason they are loved by salsa players.
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Benge 170 bell with a 3b slide anyone? For my tastes it is like a supercharged 3b
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Yeah, for heavy 508, the first thing that comes to mind is the Selmer Bolero, as already mentioned. Something slightly off the beaten path would be the Olds Recording. That probably fits the spirit of what you're asking better, even if its not straight 508. Just remember to use it with a counterweight, otherwise its a little unwieldy. And the 48h also mentioned is another great horn for playing loud, but configured like the more popular 6h.
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
Hard agree. The Recording is the move here, IMO.hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Feb 01, 2024 7:15 am Something slightly off the beaten path would be the Olds Recording. That probably fits the spirit of what you're asking better, even if its not straight 508.
I have to disagree with some of the above posts about the 891 being heavyish. It's much lighter compared to Olds, Shires, Courtois, and many 3bs. It plays lighter too, IMO. Which is not a bad thing.
- harrisonreed
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Re: Heavy .508 bore
I totally forgot -- the Elliott Mason custom from BAC is .508, extremely heavy, and plays humongous. I don't like the wire thin outer slide hand brace or the steam punk aesthetic, but the thing plays like a monster.