Yamaha Xeno large bore tenors

[JeffBone44]

What are your feelings/reviews on the Yamaha Xeno .547 bore models? How many different models are there and what are the differences? How is the consistency from horn to horn? I'd imagine like most brands there's both good and not so good.

How do they slot in the high range? In general is it a wider slot where it's easier to play accurately? The reason why I'm asking is that I'm made several adjustments to my Shires large bore over the years. It seems to be a consistent characteristic that the slot is narrow on the Shires .547s. It's made it very hard for me to play up there on this size horn. I do not have this problem on the small bores or bass, and I love those horns. Maybe there's something about a Shires large bore in the way that it slots that doesn't agree with me.

I have played a couple of Yamaha Xenos in the past. One was very good - I was floored by how easy it responded in the upper range, and how accurately I could articulate and how easy it was to hit the partial that I was aiming for. I just tried another Xeno that wasn't so great - although the low and mid-range was fantastic, the upper range starting with the 7th partial was unfortunately very stuffy. It's made me wonder though, that if I can find a really good playing Xeno, I'd be very happy with that horn.

[norbie2018]

The best way to know if a trombone suits me is to try it. You can visit a local music store to try before you buy, or buy from a place like Dillons which has a return policy. That's the route I'd go.

[JeffBone44]

I live about a 2.5 hour drive away from Dillon, have been there many times, so that would be my best bet.

[WilliamLang]

I love the 882V - I think the V-valve is a great innovation that they should have marketed more broadly. For my own playing preferences the 882GOR really stepped forward the last time I played all the horns at ITF.

I also think that Yamaha Xenos are by far the best value for what you get on the used market nowadays. I think they play as well as most custom Shires/Edwards at half the cost. The feel to the player is different for sure, oftentimes you don't get the sonic feedback from the player standpoint that most American manufacturers provide, but outside listeners (you know, who we play music for) often hear something much different.

[JeffBone44]

Thanks for the review, William. I'm going to contact Dillon to see if they have any in stock to try.

[Trav1s]

Definitely test play and make sure you try the 882. That horn was the big surprise of ITF 2018 for me. They definitely plays different than the 882O and 882OG versions. You can find some discussion on the forum about the differences.
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical ... index.html

[harrisonreed]

Jeff, since you want opinions, here's my take on Yamaha tenors:

Back in the day, Yamaha was making tenors that had a lot of design elements of the 88H trombones. I'm talking about in the 90s. These were in the 6xx series, before Xenos existed, but especially the 648 and 648R. Long story short, these trombones were really well built, it seemed to me that they had an unsoldered bead on the bell (they at least played that way), and had an amazing feel and response. Light construction.

The Xenos, by contrast, are very heavily built. Thick bracing, soldered bell. They play "dead", very much like how I feel Bach 42s play. Some people love that. But I definitely don't like it. And, way to go Yamaha for being legendary for consistency, every Xeno plays like that. Completely dead, and response that exists somewhere 8 feet outside of the instrument.

So, anyways, I think that Yamaha was really onto something in the 90s, and then completely missed the mark as soon as they released the Xeno line, both tenor and bass.

[Matt K]

There are a lot more options on the Xeno lineup than there used to be. I think the Peter Sullivan model is the one that a lot of people think of because it was their Xeno large bore model for quite some time. Incidentally, I believe the Yamaha 830 was also developed with input from Murray Crewe; both of them were in the Pittsburgh Symphony when the respective horns were developed. Pete can get a fantastic sound on otherwise pretty small equipment (last I heard he was on a 6.5AL ish piece) and the horn seems to work really well for people like that.

Seems like the various models play quite a bit different from them. Not like Bach vs Conn different, but enough that if you like more of the consistent across dynamic registers type of sound and feel, those horns tend to work better on larger pieces. Difference between the 8820G and the 8820R or whatever the Zalkind model is is pretty big in my experience. Key differences are the wider, nickel crook, and the leadpipe I think. The bell otherwise seems fairly similar. But that matches my experience too. I had a 8820G slide for awhile, and later modded to have a .525 upper... and it works great on my Conn style Shires. Similarly, the bell section from that horn had a Shires receiver put on it (a friend sold me the slide after adding the Shires receiver to his bell section) and it played amazing with a TB4762 slide.

[harrisonreed]

For me, as long as they keep making overbuilt, over-braced, heavily soldered (bell) models, I'll steer clear. For the price range, Getzen all the way. The new Getzen pro stuff is way under the radar for how good it is.

[JeffBone44]

Thanks for these reviews. I have no idea if I will actually like these enough to switch from my Shires. Seems like some people like these horns a lot, others don't. I won't know until I try them. It depends what options Dillon will have. I'm not buying one of these horns unseen.

All I remember is that on one model I tried years ago, I had a much easier time in the high register than what I currently play on. I just know that it was a Xeno but I don't know which exact model it was.

What I do know is that I don't like horns that slot too tightly. On my Shires, if I can manage to hit the slot accurately, it sounds amazing and can be easy to play. But hitting that slot sometimes is like trying to hit a bullseye from a mile away.

[tbonesullivan]

It's really going to depend on you, and what you are looking for in a trombone. I love Bach 42 trombones, and I also like Yamaha Bass Trombones. I used to have a YSL-640 .525 bore, but it played too BIG and HEAVY for me, so I replaced it with a Bach LT36B, which I feel has the somewhat lighter sound I was looking for.

I unfortunately have not had any long term experience with any of the 800 series Yamaha Tenor horns, but I keep wanting too. However I also cant quite my Bach 42s..

[Posaunus]

The Xenos ... are very heavily built. Thick bracing, soldered bell. They play "dead", very much like how I feel Bach 42s play. Some people love that. But I definitely don't like it ... every Xeno plays like that. Completely dead, and response that exists somewhere 8 feet outside of the instrument.

So, anyways, I think that Yamaha was really onto something in the 90s, and then completely missed the mark as soon as they released the Xeno line, both tenor and bass.

I think I agree with Harrison. I only briefly compared two Yamaha tenors (a few years ago), but I much preferred the "feel" and response of a 600-series to an 800-series Xeno (which I also found to be heavy and perhaps even "dead").

[JeffBone44]

If they're heavily built, then I may not like it. I'll have to play some to find out.

Or maybe I'm still not playing properly in the high register. Perhaps I should do some more high range work, and get some more lessons as well.

[Burgerbob]

There's a bunch of different Xeno models that cover a pretty wide spectrum... no way to really nail them down to any one style.

They're also just as inconsistent as all modern Yamaha Xenos, I've played a couple that were really actually quite bad, many that were fine, a couple that were really good.

My favorite is the 882, closed wrap.

[JeffBone44]

There's a bunch of different Xeno models that cover a pretty wide spectrum... no way to really nail them down to any one style.

They're also just as inconsistent as all modern Yamaha Xenos, I've played a couple that were really actually quite bad, many that were fine, a couple that were really good.

My favorite is the 882, closed wrap.

Several people have liked the closed wrap model the best, why is that? (I have nothing against closed wraps, just want to know what makes it different.)

[Burgerbob]

Several people have liked the closed wrap model the best, why is that?

Dunno... they have just been far and away the best playing, best sounding Xenos I've played.

[norbie2018]

Opinions will vary - I do not think they are heavily braced instruments and I have found Yamaha Xeno and 640 trombones to be perfect right out of the box. I think you are smart to go and try them and decide for yourself. It would be interesting if you posted your impressions.

[JeffBone44]

Opinions will vary - I do not think they are heavily braced instruments and I have found Yamaha Xeno and 640 trombones to be perfect right out of the box. I think you are smart to go and try them and decide for yourself. It would be interesting if you posted your impressions.

I'm very interested myself. I'm not in a huge rush to do this, probably next month or February.

The Xenos I've tried didn't feel heavy to me. I play bass trombone the majority of the time now, so basically anything else would feel considerably lighter.

[harrisonreed]

Opinions will vary - I do not think they are heavily braced instruments and I have found Yamaha Xeno and 640 trombones to be perfect right out of the box. I think you are smart to go and try them and decide for yourself. It would be interesting if you posted your impressions.

Absolutely right, you gotta try it before you knock it, of course! See below for why I think they are heavy though.

There's a bunch of different Xeno models that cover a pretty wide spectrum... no way to really nail them down to any one style.

The OP is about the large bore Xenos, which generally means the 882 series, so I'm not including the 891 or altos. I have heard good things about the jazz horns, so you're right about "Xeno" not meaning the same thing depending on which type of trombone you're looking at.

Yamaha's description for each 882 variation starts with "The Xeno features heavier gauge brass and a thick-walled, one-piece brazed bell..."

So not only is the bell heavy gague, the entire thing is made out of heavy gague brass.

On the examples I've tried over the last ten years or so, the bead is soldered to the point that you can see the ring around the whole thing, making it almost like a French bead.

The horns brace points all have overbuilt nickel oversleeves on each side of the brace tube, just like the hand slide grips. Compare to the old 648, which has a lot less of this.

The horns are generally sold with a counterweight, despite having an F attachment, even the open wrap versions. Maybe it's to offset the heavy bell and slide.

The 90/180 valve configuration is something that I've never understood. The Minick wrap (90/90) and Alessi style wrap makes so much more sense. Heck even the 88H one makes more sense, and that one is 90/90 too. Who knows, this is probably not why they feel stuffy and dead, compared to the other points above. The old 6xx series with semi open wraps had 180/90 valves and they're great. Adding to the confusion is the tiny amount of pull you get on the 882O. On paper the Xeno should have pull to practically Eb, but they only give you like 4".

At the end of the day, this is just me. I feel like this about the Bach 42 as well, and the Xeno I think was looking to the 42 for inspiration in a lot of ways. I have heard amazing music come out of 882s and 42s, so it's a concept that definitely works for people.

[Burgerbob]

I mean there are like 6 or 7 different flavors of large bore xeno. 881, 882, 882O, 88OR, probably some others I can't remember. And rose bell versions of them too.

[tkelley216]

I think Yamahas make great doubling instruments since they are generally responsive and easy to play with a good, though somewhat "generic," sound. Every tool has its use and purpose; if you are primarily a bass player looking for a tenor to double on, Yamaha is a good bet.

Sound is generally why people turn away from Yamaha. It's not bad, but other brands/instruments tend to have a more distinctive sound that draws people to or away from them. Yamahas are also not known for projecting that well. I think the Xeno line is trying to combat this by making horns built around specific players and their sound concepts (Larry Zalkind, Peter Sullivan, Murray Crewe, etc.).

Ironically, I've heard that the horns that the artists end up building/playing are often nothing like what ends up in production. Also I think the 882 closed wrap Xeno gets a lot of love because it wasn't built for an artist, rather they just took what worked for them (in the 600 series) and beefed it up (I could be completely wrong, someone please correct me if I am).

I'm primarily a tenor player, but I do a lot of doubling on bass and really like my 830 (with a long shank schilke 59). There are definitely horns that do specific jobs better, but I feel like I can bring a Yamaha to just about any gig and be safe, which is important if you...you know....take gigs... I also got a chance to.try a bunch of Yamaha tenors a couple years ago and generally liked all of them, even if they didn't have the depth of sound my Getzen had.

All that said, I wouldn't replace the shires (or any horns) unless you really thought it was holding you back. Sure, the high range might be tight, but if you are mostly a bass trombonist doing some doubling, do you really need a high range? If you do need a high range, could you not just play on a small bore? Every horn has its trade-offs, if you do get a Yamaha (or any other horn), you will probably miss some aspect of the shires at some point in time. It's rare to find a trombonist without buyers/sellers regret...

[JeffBone44]

Here’s how my Shires is built: 7YLW bell, TY tuning slide, TB47G slide, standard rotor. This is a fairly heavy horn too. The 7YLW bell isn’t all that light despite its description.

It might be interesting to try the same slide, but lightweight. But then I’d probably complain that it’s too bright and edgy. I currently have no complaints about the sound I get from my Shires, and it does a great job projecting.

Getting a Yamaha or any other horn won’t improve my high range. I think I just need to refine my approach to it. I need to do exercises devoted to improving my accuracy up there.

[bassclef]

On the examples I've tried over the last ten years or so, the bead is soldered to the point that you can see the ring around the whole thing, making it almost like a French bead.

You're right. When I got my 882, I was a little stunned at the amount of solder in the bell rim (image attached). It has WAY more than the 882OR I also own.

The horns are generally sold with a counterweight, despite having an F attachment, even the open wrap versions. Maybe it's to offset the heavy bell and slide.

I actually tested the 882 with the counterweight off for a while. It did feel noticeably slide heavy without it. It also loosened up the slotting and made the fronts of the notes feel (and sound) a little squishy. I put it back on and it'll stay there.

[bassclef]

Several people have liked the closed wrap model the best, why is that? (I have nothing against closed wraps, just want to know what makes it different.)

You may have seen this thread already. If not, there's a good Xeno discussion there and I posted a review of the closed wrap 882:
viewtopic.php?p=206810#p206810

Now that more time (and gigs) have passed, I stand by everything I wrote in that review. I am primarily a bass trombonist also, but I get excited when I have a reason to play the 882. I did end up finding a wide 882OR slide and that coupled with the 882 bell section is my personal favorite large bore tenor I have ever tried. Most of the places I get called to play a .547 are pretty tight space-wise so I really appreciate the attachment wrap for that reason. The 882OR wrap was often a problem.

I also don't know what exactly makes the 882 what it is in comparison to the other 882x variants. I can confirm that it indeed plays and sounds much different than the others.

I never thought the 882OR was a bad horn. If you play in large orchestras in large halls, it's a great choice I think. For what I use a .547 for, it's was just okay.

One thing I did find "interesting"...at this year's ITF, I saw the Eastman Trombone Choir perform under the baton of the guy with whom Yamaha designed the 882OR. Unless I missed one, there were zero players on that horn in that rather sizeable ensemble.

I would seriously like to get my hands on one of the 25th anniversary Xenos. I've heard one of those a few times, admittedly only on YouTube, but there seemed to be some special qualities to the sound which I feel like my 882 has.

Check eBay. if you're comfortable with buying from sellers in Japan, you can pick up a nice 882U(G), which seems to be the JDM predecessor to the current 882, for a very reasonable price.

[tbonesullivan]

You're right. When I got my 882, I was a little stunned at the amount of solder in the bell rim (image attached). It has WAY more than the 882OR I also own.

When I first saw Rath trombones in the flesh, I was pretty amazed by how much solder they use around the rim bead, but more recent ones I have seen have less. My mid 90s UMI King 3B also has a lot of solder on the rim bead. Honestly I don't know how much of an effect it has, and watching bells being made, they use a lot of solder on that bead, and then later I think it is removed during the further spinning process.

I have found over the years that I overwhelmingly prefer horns with Soldered beads. I only have one trombone (the 612RII) that has an unsoldered bead.

[Lhbone]

Here’s how my Shires is built: 7YLW bell, TY tuning slide, TB47G slide, standard rotor. This is a fairly heavy horn too. The 7YLW bell isn’t all that light despite its description.

It might be interesting to try the same slide, but lightweight. But then I’d probably complain that it’s too bright and edgy. I currently have no complaints about the sound I get from my Shires, and it does a great job projecting.

Getting a Yamaha or any other horn won’t improve my high range. I think I just need to refine my approach to it. I need to do exercises devoted to improving my accuracy up there.

I hesitate to chime in on these types of threads because I agree that it’s hard to get recs without going to try a bunch of equipment. However, have you tried their TX tuning slide with your setup? I feel so much more consistent in the upper register with the TX over the TY. Same with dual radius Edwards tuning slides…can’t really do single radius.

[diminishedSeventh]

The Xenos ... are very heavily built. Thick bracing, soldered bell. They play "dead", very much like how I feel Bach 42s play. Some people love that. But I definitely don't like it ... every Xeno plays like that. Completely dead, and response that exists somewhere 8 feet outside of the instrument.

So, anyways, I think that Yamaha was really onto something in the 90s, and then completely missed the mark as soon as they released the Xeno line, both tenor and bass.

I think I agree with Harrison. I only briefly compared two Yamaha tenors (a few years ago), but I much preferred the "feel" and response of a 600-series to an 800-series Xeno (which I also found to be heavy and perhaps even "dead").

I agree, the feedback on the new horns I find lacking and tend to sound less alive. That being said, if one wants a newer horn but likes the build of the lighter Yamahas, the Eijiro Nakagawa horns (both large and small) and built with lightweight construction like that of the older horns. I can't speak specifically to the large horn, but the small bore 895EN gives me a LOT of feedback behind the bell and certainly sounds more "alive" than the new Xeno Z series horns.

[harrisonreed]

Oh wow, that sounds like the one! Yeah, the bell is two piece, light gauge, and the bell is unsoldered. They also removed the heavy hand slide brace, oversleeves, and the reinforcing L-shaped bar behind the hand slide brace (left hand tube). The F attachment also has lighter bracing.

The 823GD, that's what I'd want to try out!

[JeffBone44]

Here’s how my Shires is built: 7YLW bell, TY tuning slide, TB47G slide, standard rotor. This is a fairly heavy horn too. The 7YLW bell isn’t all that light despite its description.

It might be interesting to try the same slide, but lightweight. But then I’d probably complain that it’s too bright and edgy. I currently have no complaints about the sound I get from my Shires, and it does a great job projecting.

Getting a Yamaha or any other horn won’t improve my high range. I think I just need to refine my approach to it. I need to do exercises devoted to improving my accuracy up there.

I hesitate to chime in on these types of threads because I agree that it’s hard to get recs without going to try a bunch of equipment. However, have you tried their TX tuning slide with your setup? I feel so much more consistent in the upper register with the TX over the TY. Same with dual radius Edwards tuning slides…can’t really do single radius.

I probably did try a TX when I got fitted for my horn, but I can't remember. I live close enough to Shires where I can go up there and make an appointment.

To be perfectly honest, I've been evaluating the way that I use my air in the upper register, and it definitely hasn't been relaxed. So I was practicing some high range stuff yesterday where I focused on using a lot of air, but not pushing it too hard, and the results were very promising. At times the high register was just beautiful, resonant and easy, even in fast passages. I played a brass band concert later in the day, at the beginning I was struggling a bit because I reverted back to my old habits, but my high range became more secure as the concert went on, as I focused on relaxed air and not overblowing. So I think I just need to practice using the air correctly at home, and eventually in performance it will pay off.

It's not the horn, it's me.

[nateaff]

I currently play on 882OR, and have put in a little time on the 882O. If you like the openness of Bach 42 styled horns go for the OR. But what a lot of people have said is true. I might use the word "solid" instead of "dead" but it won't light up the way a Conn or an old Benge will.