Watrous horn?

[Bach5G]

Dual or single bore? 16 or 16M?

[ZacharyThornton]

16M. That is the Watrous horn.

[TromboneSam]

Single .509 bore. He developed the 16M with Bach in the 70’s. The bell section is also different in that it has a more open gooseneck which helped with the tuning and projection tendencies that Bill preferred.

[Dennis]

Watrous played a Bach 16 bell on a 0.509 single bore slide that was built for him by John "Peppy" Peppitano in NYC. When Watrous became prominent in 1970s, Bach decided that they should offer a Watrous model, and the LT16M is what they came up with.

It's close to, but not exactly like the horn Watrous played. It's also unclear to me how involved Watrous was in the development of the LT16M.

Note also that the Bach small bore bells (Models 6, 8, 12, 16) are all spun on the same mandrel and cut to 7.5 inches. I don't know why they stamp them differently--maybe the tuning slides are different?? (I have my doubts about that.)

[ithinknot]

Note also that the Bach small bore bells (Models 6, 8, 12, 16) are all spun on the same mandrel and cut to 7.5 inches. I don't know why they stamp them differently--maybe the tuning slides are different?? (I have my doubts about that.)

After the move to Elkhart, 6/8/12/16/V16 bell sections are the same.

When the LT16M was introduced in the 70s, the bell section remained the same; the bell was stamped 16, and the slide 16M.

Later (early 80s, and post-Corporation marking, but I'm not certain on an exact date) they changed to the more open neckpipe on the 16M bell sections, and these were stamped (/ are now engraved) 16M.

[tbdana]

Watrous played a Bach 16 bell on a 0.509 single bore slide that was built for him by John "Peppy" Peppitano in NYC. When Watrous became prominent in 1970s, Bach decided that they should offer a Watrous model, and the LT16M is what they came up with.

It's close to, but not exactly like the horn Watrous played. It's also unclear to me how involved Watrous was in the development of the LT16M.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that. Watrous played on a bunch of horns over the years. All the horns I ever saw him play were 16Ms.

[OneTon]

One of the real players in Wichita, whose father drug him all over the US to listen to Si Zentner’s big band, and who was given Si Zentner’s last trombone after he passed, said that when top trombone's players showed up at a manufacturer and acquired a trombone, there was no telling what modifications may have been inflicted before it left the factory.

[Dennis]

I saw Watrous play a couple of times. I saw him in LA, but I wasn't close enough to see what he was playing other than that it was a Bach small bore. The second time I saw him I was in the band backing him. He was playing a NY 16 bell on a single-bore slide made by Pettitano. He said that was his horn, and it was the basis of the LT16M.

As to OneTon's comment: Amen. That applies across the board. Chris Vaddala was a guest soloist with the orchestra I played in. He brought his Selmer Super Action 80 soprano and a Haynes alto flute but borrowed a Mark VI tenor from a local. He played most of the concert on the tenor. He said a rehearsal break that he brought the soprano because he was a Selmer artist and part of the deal was that he'd play at least one current production instrument when he was performing as a guest artist. He also said that he preferred his old (Mark VI, I think) soprano to the Super Action 80, but the Super Action 80 tenor was actually quite a good sax. But hauling a soprano cross-country was a lot easier than hauling a tenor (that would need to be under the plane) and that dictated his choice.

[TromboneMonkey]

I took weekly lessons from him for 5 years.

He had 2 horns, one he played much more regularly than the other.

It was a .508 slide with no slide lock. .509 bore. It was entirely silver plated except the bell, which was entirely gold plated. It said "16" on it.

It was darker and "fuzzier" playing than any other 16m I've played, or any Bach I've played for that matter. He could play loud on it but I didn't feel like I could. It was lush! The partials felt super close together, almost like a French horn. I wouldn't characterize it as particularly "open" or "tight".

In short: it was similar in specs to a 16M, but with a lot more overtones and small slots. Harder to play loud on (for me).

At the time I was playing a Kuhnl Van Lier .500 and went to an 897z. He told me he preferred my sound on the Yamaha to my sound on the Kuhnl or his Bach, haha

[ithinknot]

It was darker and "fuzzier" playing than any other 16m I've played, or any Bach I've played for that matter. He could play loud on it but I didn't feel like I could. It was lush! The partials felt super close together, almost like a French horn. I wouldn't characterize it as particularly "open" or "tight".

I imagine the Peppy straight .509 slides used the .540 crook from the MV-era dual bore 16. Elkhart LT16M slides use the .522 crook originally from the model 6.

When I replaced the undersized crook on an LT16M (a Corp "16" stamped horn, FWIW) with something closer to matching the outer slide ID (.549 IIRC), it freed up the blow, without making the horn seem generally "larger", and the upper partials feeling closer together was one of the more obvious changes. Certainly more relaxed and fluid, arguably more even, but definitely a shift in that horny direction.

[TromboneMonkey]

It was darker and "fuzzier" playing than any other 16m I've played, or any Bach I've played for that matter. He could play loud on it but I didn't feel like I could. It was lush! The partials felt super close together, almost like a French horn. I wouldn't characterize it as particularly "open" or "tight".

I imagine the Peppy straight .509 slides used the .540 crook from the MV-era dual bore 16. Elkhart LT16M slides use the .522 crook originally from the model 6.

When I replaced the undersized crook on an LT16M (a Corp "16" stamped horn, FWIW) with something closer to matching the outer slide ID (.549 IIRC), it freed up the blow, without making the horn seem generally "larger", and the upper partials feeling closer together was one of the more obvious changes. Certainly more relaxed and fluid, arguably more even, but definitely a shift in that horny direction.

Interesting; could be! I wish I had been around for the MV years. The level of knowledge in that shop (and Olds, and Williams, etc.) must've been otherworldly.

[tbdana]

I imagine the Peppy straight .509 slides used the .540 crook from the MV-era dual bore 16. Elkhart LT16M slides use the .522 crook originally from the model 6.

When I replaced the undersized crook on an LT16M (a Corp "16" stamped horn, FWIW) with something closer to matching the outer slide ID (.549 IIRC), it freed up the blow, without making the horn seem generally "larger", and the upper partials feeling closer together was one of the more obvious changes. Certainly more relaxed and fluid, arguably more even, but definitely a shift in that horny direction.

I've heard of people swapping out the 16M square crook for a King 3B. Is that what you're talking about?

[ithinknot]

I've heard of people swapping out the 16M square crook for a King 3B. Is that what you're talking about?

Dick Nash, for example. The King part is actually slightly oversized (.55something) and single radius, obviously. I used a .543 Yamaha part, still dual radius but not as square as the Bach. Or you can get other dual radius options at .540 and .545 from M/K Drawing.

[CarlVicVogel]

Interesting info.

I heard Watrous play, and bought my own LT16M. I swap it out with my King 3-B.

Both are great!

Carl