Going deeper into bass

[hyperbolica]

I know you are all probably sick of hearing me say that I'm a fairly solid tenor player, but a reluctant bass bone player, but I'm going to say it again. I've been rather dragged into it out of necessity, or out of opportunity in any case. I really don't want to fully commit to bass bone and abandon tenor, but I'm coming to a point where I've got to do something. I started playing in a big band as a sub on bass, and now they are counting me as a full-on member. So much that they're going to bring in some bass-bone feature tunes. Which is a little frightening to be honest.

I'm not only a reluctant bass bone player, I'm also not a great one. I've never taken any lessons focused on bass, I've rarely actually practiced bass (aside from the couple of months around when I bought an actual bass trombone). So there are a lot of details about bass playing that I'm a bit fuzzy on, just extrapolating from tenor. There was a time when I could play pedal C on tenor with a 5G mouthpiece. Now I struggle to get pedal F on bass. Generally I find low notes easier on small horns than on my bass.

I guess the upshot of all this whining is that I've got to improve in the next two weeks. I can play the pedal F, but I have to use a Marcinkiewicz 105 (which I believe is a tuba mouthpiece) to do it with much volume. My articulation is the typical blatty bass trombone explosions, and my air supply is somewhat short. I think my sound is decent, but not stellar.

My equipment is a Kanstul 1662i with a DE LB 112 K9 (about 1 1/4G size). I think the sound is fuzzier than I'd like (more like a euph than a tenor bone). I may be able to use a large tenor with a second valve (Holton tr159 with plug in valve) to get a brighter sound, but I fear the articulations will sound even harder and the "buzz saw effect" will take over.

Where does a tenor player doubling on bass spend a few hours practicing to get the most out of a couple weeks of time? I've started doing octaves, scales, arpeggios and glisses down. Playing loud and soft, trying to do lip slurs in the triggers is really hard work, but does tend to mellow out the articulation a lot, mainly because I avoid the tongue altogether. Suggestions welcome.

[WilliamLang]

When I have a bass-intensive week coming up I'll start using George Curran's warm-up routine (except for the buzzing) to really get into the horn. What I use to warm-up on tenor has just never felt quite right for getting into the proper bass mindset. I'll add it here in case it helps out anyone.

http://www.lasttrombone.com/uploads/1/0 ... _12_17.pdf

[harrisonreed]

I'm like you. I don't like playing bass, but that's what I'm called on to play mostly, this year at least. As a doubler, here's what I got:

I think, as a doubler, going for a more conservative mouthpiece might help you play with more focus. A 2G width might really help. I also prefer having a shank that has a more open throat and tighter backbore than what I find the DE shanks to have. Half the battle of the pedal range is getting the right quality of air in, and for me the .312" sized throat helps, especially when tamed with a modest backbore.

The money range is being able to play low Cs and Bs, and to bridge those into the pedal range. I would work slowly on chromatics from Ab on the bottom line of the staff down to pedal Ab, and back up, focusing on that bridge from B to pedal Bb.

[ghmerrill]

Well, I"ve been going through the same thing recently, and was playing a DE rig identical to yours. But I just bumped it up to a K10 shank and 114 rim, and that helped. Was it "necessary"? I don't know. But it helped enough for me to get confidence in the pedal F (on either valve), and now I seem to be able to do it with some significant consistency. Not quite to the point of performance-assured, but getting there. Practice materials I'm working on now are "Pares Scales for BBb Bass" and Walter Sear's "Advanced Duets for Tuba" (Vol. 1). But mostly just practicing scales and intervals.

I'm just a rank amateur and have a $580 Chinese bass trombone. If I can get there, surely anyone can.

[Burgerbob]

Here's a great quote from Kyle Gordon, current bass trombonist in the Pershing's Own. It helped me understand why bass felt the way it did:

"IMO which doesn’t mean much most players struggle with efficiency because they are disengaged at the embouchure. This allows them to produce sound with less support but at the cost of their ability to get around the horn with ease. You work more because you’re engaging less. Good playing sounds dry behind the bell while disengaged playing sounds warm and wet behind the bell. The disengaged unsupported playing is usually more enjoyable to the ear behind the bell but not in front."

[shbak]

Here's a great quote from Kyle Gordon...:

That looks as though it could be a really useful insight from Kyle Gordon, but I’m not sure what it means to engage or disengage at the embouchure. What do you think Kyle means?
Thanks - this my first post, but I’ve learnt so much from this great forum.

[hyperbolica]

Thanks for the suggestions. @WilliamLang, those exercises look like they'll be helpful. I'm already doing something similar, but there are some new things in there that I'll add to the routine. @harrisonreed I've tried the smaller route, namely 2G, Ferguson V, Schilke 58 and 59, as well as DE J cup, and they haven't been a hardware magic bullet for my low range issues. I do agree, though, that if I had something with a backbore choke on it, that would probably be useful. I think from a hardware point of view, something that adds back pressure would be helpful. Unfortunately, this feels like a practice issue since I had this before, and have lost it... @ghmerrill That's a very useful suggestion, since its a small adjustment and I can likely get there easily. That Marcinkiewicz is probably wrecking any good habits on bass that I have. @BurgerBob That disconnection stuff is probably profound, but its a bit too esoteric or abstract for me to translate into actual action. I do agree that this is probably an embouchure issue at its root, however.

If I had a couple of months I think I could practice my way into a decent lower range, and maybe even figure out my tone issues. Practicing bass is such tedious drudgery, and seriously hard physical work, though, which is why I tend to avoid it. I've been playing it for 10 years mostly without practice, which has finally caught up with me. Anyway, thanks to all!

[Burgerbob]

Here's a great quote from Kyle Gordon...:

That looks as though it could be a really useful insight from Kyle Gordon, but I’m not sure what it means to engage or disengage at the embouchure. What do you think Kyle means?
Thanks - this my first post, but I’ve learnt so much from this great forum.

It's relatively easy to play bass trombone with a really flabby embouchure, especially in the low register. This can feel correct, but results in a similarly flabby, non-projecting sound. If you stay engaged (like you're playing in the midrange or above), you get a much more dense, projecting sound. This can feel almost wrong, since you get less of the feedback that the former way gives you.

[shbak]

That looks as though it could be a really useful insight from Kyle Gordon, but I’m not sure what it means to engage or disengage at the embouchure. What do you think Kyle means?
Thanks - this my first post, but I’ve learnt so much from this great forum.

It's relatively easy to play bass trombone with a really flabby embouchure, especially in the low register. This can feel correct, but results in a similarly flabby, non-projecting sound. If you stay engaged (like you're playing in the midrange or above), you get a much more dense, projecting sound. This can feel almost wrong, since you get less of the feedback that the former way gives you.

Thank you, I guess this aligns to the advice often offered about keeping the corners firm.

[ghmerrill]

Practicing bass is such tedious drudgery, and seriously hard physical work, though, which is why I tend to avoid it.

But then why keep doing it? You're not a professional -- so you don't "have" to do it. Just say "no".

Practicing bass trombone is pretty much a thrill for me. While I'm actually a good tuba player and a pretty decent euph player, I'm at best a mediocre bass trombone player. But I just love it, and love trying to get better. Drudgery I don't do any more. Life's too short.

[ghmerrill]

It's relatively easy to play bass trombone with a really flabby embouchure, especially in the low register. This can feel correct, but results in a similarly flabby, non-projecting sound. If you stay engaged (like you're playing in the midrange or above), you get a much more dense, projecting sound. This can feel almost wrong, since you get less of the feedback that the former way gives you.

I think this is well put. It's difficult to capture in an objective way what is fundamentally a subjective experience here, but I think this is good. Focus on the (objective?) sound you're trying to produce -- even if this means recording yourself. When I returned to bass trombone several years ago from playing mostly tuba and some euph, my first reaction was "My sound is crap." This both from my own subjective experience of it and from my recordings of practice. It took quite a bit of time and effort to get where I wanted to be (mostly ) and not have the result sound like a tuba/euph player blowing into a trombone.

[hyperbolica]

Practicing bass is such tedious drudgery, and seriously hard physical work, though, which is why I tend to avoid it.

But then why keep doing it? You're not a professional -- so you don't "have" to do it. Just say "no".

Practicing bass trombone is pretty much a thrill for me. While I'm actually a good tuba player and a pretty decent euph player, I'm at best a mediocre bass trombone player. But I just love it, and love trying to get better. Drudgery I don't do any more. Life's too short.

" A bad day fishing is better than a good day at work" Surely you've heard that one before. That's kind of the spirit here. And also I've been avoiding it and telling people I don't really want to play bass, but they keep calling me back. If we had a good bass bone player around here, I might not get any gigs. We have a bit of a glut of 70+ year old really great tenor players. One good bass player is 45 minutes away, and another mediocre bass player is uninterested. So I get the gigs.

This is part of the reason why I started a new brass quintet last year - just so I could play tenor. But now our tuba player is bailing and unless I can find another one, i'm right back in the same old jam.

[ghmerrill]

Well, that's pretty much why I'm playing euphonium this year. But I don't think of it as drudgery. If I did, I wouldn't be doing it. However, I would volunteer to be your tuba player if you were anywhere around here. Alas, I recently gave away all my (quite good arrangements of) quintet music because I just couldn't see any opportunities and don't want to try to organize one myself. Last time I did that, I got one trumpet player who was mostly deaf and probably had never played in tune, and a euph player who was spacey and trying (quite unsuccessfully) to play the horn parts. The trombone player was quite good, and the other trumpet was okay. I think we played one event as part of our community band schedule, and then I couldn't take it any more. I also love fishing, but not that much.

[shbak]

That looks as though it could be a really useful insight from Kyle Gordon, but I’m not sure what it means to engage or disengage at the embouchure. What do you think Kyle means?
Thanks - this my first post, but I’ve learnt so much from this great forum.

It's relatively easy to play bass trombone with a really flabby embouchure, especially in the low register. This can feel correct, but results in a similarly flabby, non-projecting sound. If you stay engaged (like you're playing in the midrange or above), you get a much more dense, projecting sound. This can feel almost wrong, since you get less of the feedback that the former way gives you.

Thanks for explaining. I’m currently focussing on keeping my corners firm and maintaining my lips in a state of controlled tension across the registers, I guess this is a similar approach.
Thanks again.

[MStarke]

Not totally sure if I am in the best position to recommend something, but still some thoughts.

Low range has for me personally always been probably the best and most stable part of my playing. Today I do have a good high range, but it's definitely more challenging for me.

Of course there may be some things you can change around your equipment and maybe also some basic playing mechanics.
However in the end there are no shortcuts in my opinion. Many tenor players tend to find bass trombone easy as long as they don't go down into the double valve and pedal registers. also blasting out single low notes on bass is feasible for many, the tricky part is integrating them in lines, connecting notes etc.

Over the years (2 decades now of playing bass) I have again and again come back to long tones (kind of Phil Teele style) and expanding intervals. Aim not for loudness, but for efficiency. try to get low notes to speak without tonguing. and do not neglect high range on the bass.

If it should not be to boring, you could play Bordogni/Rochut slowly in the original and down an octave. try to connect notes as closely as possible.

[ghmerrill]

If it should not be to boring, you could play Bordogni/Rochut slowly in the original and down an octave. try to connect notes as closely as possible.

I also really like Tommy Pederson's books, "Elementary Etudes for Bass Trombone" and "Advanced Etudes for Bass Trombone." The elementary one doesn't go super low, but the intervals he makes you play are great for learning pitch and transitions. And you don't have to play them at tempo to get a lot of the benefit. Also, they're all in the key of C (with accidentals).

[Mr412]

I play a single trigger Yamaha 421 bass with currently, a 1.5G mpc, which I feel is about the most universal bass trombone mpc I have found. I continually work through the first 60 Rochut etudes, alternating playing as written - in the tenor voice, then an octave lower - in bass. Each, I feel, helps the other. Some of the tenor renditions are a little tough on a bass trombone, but doable. Some of the bass renditions are a little tough in a different way, but also doable, albeit perhaps at a slightly slower tempo. It's both a mental and neurological workout for me to transcribe down one octave on-the-fly and get the triggering correct.

Also, I have 700 soft rock/pop ballads, each with an advanced BiaB accompaniment. Each selection is three choruses long, with 16-bar BiaB soloist breaks between each chorus. It's fun alternating playing the melody in bass and tenor, improvising as I can. I have every tune chart-notated with the chords in every measure. Sometimes I feel I rely on the chord notations a little too much, instead of simply playing the improv I come up with by ear. When I feel like I'm in a groove, I'm giving equal attention to both. And when I feel super-comfortable (not often), I look away from the music, or maybe just look at the chords on a separate monitor as they play through on BiaB.

My point is that I feel we are limited only by our imagination. I stopped playing my vintage Elkhart Conn 88H b/c I'm so enamored with the versatility of my Yamaha 412 bass, which I believe behaves more like a very, very large tenor and is so free-blowing. It is MY desert-island trombone.

[hyperbolica]

....Many tenor players tend to find bass trombone easy as long as they don't go down into the double valve and pedal registers. also blasting out single low notes on bass is feasible for many, the tricky part is integrating them in lines, connecting notes etc.

Yeah, that's the problem. I'm used to a certain level of control on tenor, and I'm definitely not getting that on bass. Bass isn't worth picking up unless you're going to do something you can't do on tenor. My 88h sounds great with a small bass piece in it, but I'm going to have a steady diet of Cs and Bs.

I've been playing bass in a quartet for several years without picking up the bass to practice separately. So I only get a couple hours of face time with that horn a week, I cover the bass part, which was the original goal, but now my goals have been bumped up a notch. I understand the NEED for control. Although I try like hell, I can't say I've really achieved control or low range.

I'm not worried about high range on bass, I have that on tenor, and bass just makes it sound bad in comparison.

Also, I have 700 soft rock/pop ballads, each with an advanced BiaB accompaniment.

Not to derail my own post, but where did you get those? I've invested in BiaB, but the investment in the software on its own is kind of hollow without tunes, which seem impossible to find. You get a lot of stuff with the software, but predictably it's none of the stuff you really want or need to make it all useful.

[Mr412]

Not to derail my own post, but where did you get those? I've invested in BiaB, but the investment in the software on its own is kind of hollow without tunes, which seem impossible to find. You get a lot of stuff with the software, but predictably it's none of the stuff you really want or need to make it all useful.

I have gleaned them from a wide variety of sources. A lot of them I was able to pull from the Wikifonia site. But be careful there. A lot of the melodies and chord changes have been modified and not very well, so it's best to vette them from another source if possible.

Others have come from very, very large Hal Leonard books and public domain sources. I keyed songs I wanted into my Finale musical notation software, one note and chord symbol at a time - kinda tedious and time-consuming! I tried upgrading and scanning, but the results were awful. Once I have the chart, cobbling up a BiaB accompaniment is a snap.

I know there used to be and maybe still is a BiaB database. I would caution you against culling from it, as you don't know what might be embedded in those files.

It's a process and I have worked on it steadily for some years to accumulate what I have. Still a work in progress, but I've set my limit at 700. So when I find a tune I like a lot, I discard one that I never really liked in the first place. As is, it takes me about 4 months to cycle through the database. I keep a spread sheet of the song titles and I can sort it either alphabetically or randomly. I use that as a guide.

I like to listen to a local jazz station. It gives me ideas on how I might play one of the old standards. It's always nice to hear a freshened up version of an old tune. Take any old tune and try to imagine how an accomplished artist of today would handle it. A lot of them make the old tune come across as though it was just written.

I believe I have BiaB and all my charts up to a professional level that could be used for gigs. Only problem is, I don't feel like I am quite up to a professional level yet. lol

Anyway, my point is that we don't have to run out and buy "bass trombone" studies or play-alongs. Anything at hand will do. Just transcribe it down an octave on-the-fly if it's in a high tenor voice. Some people can do that AND transcribe while reading from treble clef as well. It's good practice.

Best of luck playing bass trombone. I wish I had started out on it years ago, instead of tenor. But I lacked the imagination and resources back then.

[JeffBone44]

When I have a bass-intensive week coming up I'll start using George Curran's warm-up routine (except for the buzzing) to really get into the horn. What I use to warm-up on tenor has just never felt quite right for getting into the proper bass mindset. I'll add it here in case it helps out anyone.

http://www.lasttrombone.com/uploads/1/0 ... _12_17.pdf

That bass routine is ! I don't think I could do it all in a row, but if I pick and choose selected exercises each day, that will be very good practice.