Corporation Bach 42 Bell Damaged in Shipment

[Lhbone]

I'm mostly writing this post to vent my frustration, but I'm curious to hear what some of our techs in this community think about this situation.

I recently bought a corp era Bach 42b from a brass store based in the midwest. I paid a fair price, and it was in fantastic condition. It had one owner and was very well taken care of. The slide is a 9+/10, the linkage has been updated, and there was a brace removed from the bell side of the f-attachment to free up the bell to resonate. It's possible this owner also had the instrument taken apart and reassembled to remove any tension/stress as well. This was a great contender for upgrading the valve to a modern rotor.

Unfortunately, they did not pack the instrument properly for shipment, and it arrived with a partially crumpled bell. I actually wrote them an email before they shipped it advising them to put a foam cone or a lot of bubble wrap between the bell and the case to prevent it from making contact with the case... For whatever reason, I just had a bad feeling about its safe arrival. They assured me that they would pack it properly being the professionals that they are.

Sure enough, it was the most poorly packed instrument I've ever received. They took two boxes to create one larger box, put the trombone (in its case) directly into the empty box, tucked a small amount of paper around the instrument and sealed it. Inside the case, there was one small sheet of small bubble wrap in the bell and another piece or two on top of the bell section....all providing no protection to the instrument.

Despite my heartbreak, I put the instrument together to try it out. It plays very very well. It's a great example of a corp era horn with rewarding response and feedback with easy articulations. Because of course it would be...

I am going to speak with the store owner next week to discuss my options. I know that I can ship it back for a full refund, no issue. However, I wanted to find out what others think of this damage.

1. Is it worth negotiating a lower price for the instrument with the owner and getting it repaired on my end?

2. How does the crumple affect the integrity of the metal on the bell? I've seen evidence of techs on here working some magic with some much worse off bells, but how does that impact a bell's response?

3. What do you think this horn is worth with the damage (thinking in terms of negotiating a lower price)? Again, keeping in mind that before the bell crumple, this instrument was probably corp-era enthusiast's dream.

[Bach5G]

I once received an 88H with similar damage to the bell. A tech was able to repair it such that the damages was nearly invisible.

A tech was able to repair similar damage to a friend’s 4B such that the damage was barely noticeable.

Good luck.

[greenbean]

If the horn is a great player, I would keep because it may be a while before you come across one of those again. And a good tech should be able to address with little to no evidence. The bell is unlacquered so you won't have lacquer damage along the peaks and valleys of the crumple.

[brassmedic]

That's a pretty easy fix the way it is right now. DO NOT try to bend anything back by yourself, or you will turn it into a difficult fix. See if the store will pay you to have it repaired.

[tbonesullivan]

OOOF. How can they NOT have a proper box for the horn when they are a brass store that ships? They used an incorrect box, and it looks like they REUSED boxes, which in many cases will automatically negate an insurance claim. I'm also pretty amazed that they don't have foam cones made in advance to use in the bells, especially in a Bach case, which gives very little protection against a deceleration.

[SwissTbone]

Those old Bach cases are notoriously difficult to use for shipping. I prefer when people ship without cases.

That damage looks like it won't really be a problem for a good tech. Ask the shop to lower the price 200$. Your trusted tech will fix that.

[Kingfan]

I shipped a King 3B in the original coffin case with foam and bubble wrap inside and out and used a new box, but UPS dropped it hard on the end and the bell wrinkled. I reimbursed the buyer (who thought I had packed it adequately and blamed UPS, not me) for the cost of repairs. That is the least the seller should do for you, reimburse repair costs.

[Rrova]

That's definitely a keeper. Just make sure you use a really good tech. Since you're in MD, like me, I would talk to Brian Hinckley, who's also on the chat. If you're closer to VA, Jeff Bonk is another good option. Also Randy Mueller in DC. Let me know if you need contact info.

[hyperbolica]

That's relatively minor damage. If the horn plays well, that's the valuable part. I would take the discount, get the horn repaired, and play the heck out of it.

[ithinknot]

It's bad that that happened, but as damage goes that's not bad. You want a good tech, but the repair might not cost significantly more than you'd be out for the return shipping anyway. (Obviously, the store ought to refund your costs plus a bit for goodwill, having done significantly less than the bare minimum to prevent this despite your specific requests.)

As far as value goes, don't worry about it, especially as you like how it plays. The instrument was hardly a pristine time capsule find before shipping... with the lacquer removed and the scratch finish, it's perfectly possible it's been damaged worse and repaired previously, and you wouldn't necessarily know.

[Johnstad]

I can vouch for Randy Mueller. He was based out in Portland, OR for quite some time. He's a wizard at fixing stuff like this.

[Lhbone]

Thank you all for your responses - I feel better about the idea of repairing the bell and keeping it. Unfortunately, it sounds like the store owner would rather take the horn back and refund everything rather than adjust the price to have it repaired on my end. I'll know for sure next week when I speak to him and will update this thread then.

Thanks again for the thoughts, advice, and recommendations!

[Lhbone]

That's definitely a keeper. Just make sure you use a really good tech. Since you're in MD, like me, I would talk to Brian Hinckley, who's also on the chat. If you're closer to VA, Jeff Bonk is another good option. Also Randy Mueller in DC. Let me know if you need contact info.

Thank you for DMV recs! I've worked with Randy a few times with great success, but I haven't met Jeff or Brian yet. Are you familiar with Larry Mizell's work? I've heard nothing but great things about him from Frederick area folks but was wondering if anyone on here had experience with custom work projects.

[harrisonreed]

That makeshift box wasn't the problem. Nor was shipping the horn inside its case. But putting the case inside a box and then loosely packing with paper is why it got damaged. If they had tightly packed it with foam peanuts it would have been fine.

I've had a few horns shipped to me in boxes just like that, inside their case, but each time the box was nearly bursting with foam packing peanuts. Never had an issue. I'd try to get that shop to cover the repair at least. Paper is the worst packing material and they didn't protect the case or ship properly.

[Kbiggs]

Depending on the shipping company and price for shipping, you might get a partial refund. If you like the horn, it might be worth it.

I bought an early Corporation 50B about 20 years ago. It was packed like your horn, and arrived damaged. I took pics, called the shipper, got a claim number, etc. I took it to my tech, who gave a written estimate for repair. I then filed the claim. I was reimbursed for a large portion of the repair; I think both the seller and the shipper paid a portion.

It was worth it. That’s my main bell on my 50B.

[Lhbone]

That makeshift box wasn't the problem. Nor was shipping the horn inside its case. But putting the case inside a box and then loosely packing with paper is why it got damaged. If they had tightly packed it with foam peanuts it would have been fine.

I've had a few horns shipped to me in boxes just like that, inside their case, but each time the box was nearly bursting with foam packing peanuts. Never had an issue. I'd try to get that shop to cover the repair at least. Paper is the worst packing material and they didn't protect the case or ship properly.

Theoretically, this sounds fine. However, these boxes were clearly reused for the 3-4 time and had little structural integrity. A UHaul lamp box would have cost them $5. I never ship without a brand new box, 3+ inches of packing peanuts (compacted down by hand), and the bell stuffed with either a foam cone or ball of large bubble bubble wrap. I've yet to have shipping damage when packing that way no matter the carrier.

[Lhbone]

Depending on the shipping company and price for shipping, you might get a partial refund. If you like the horn, it might be worth it.

I bought an early Corporation 50B about 20 years ago. It was packed like your horn, and arrived damaged. I took pics, called the shipper, got a claim number, etc. I took it to my tech, who gave a written estimate for repair. I then filed the claim. I was reimbursed for a large portion of the repair; I think both the seller and the shipper paid a portion.

It was worth it. That’s my main bell on my 50B.

I just don't see the point of contacting UPS. They require numerous photos to demonstrate proper packing materials and methods. What I'd show them is two half boxes that clearly had been reused numerous times, a couple pieces of packing paper and the case. I don't think they could have an easier rejection.

[ithinknot]

Unfortunately, it sounds like the store owner would rather take the horn back and refund everything rather than adjust the price to have it repaired on my end. I'll know for sure next week when I speak to him and will update this thread then.

Don't speak to him until you have a repair quote from the tech you'd use. You want to be asking for a specific amount to be issued immediately. Nobody in the store owner's position wants to write a blank check to refund undisclosed repair costs. (And after the "it's your own fault and I warned you" part, you can remind him that he's going to pay the repair costs either way... either to you, or to his own tech to make the horn saleable after it's returned... so doesn't this way seem easier for all concerned?)

Also, you really don't want to be shipping it back, because there's always the bad faith scenario where they claim the horn was "further damaged" by your shipping...

If you have a quote in hand and they refuse any option other than return, you'll know whether you'd be willing to tell them to shove it, keep the horn, and pay for the repair yourself. That's not fair, but it may be worth it versus finding another instrument, and you want to have made that decision in advance.

[MBurner]

I can vouch for Randy Mueller. He was based out in Portland, OR for quite some time. He's a wizard at fixing stuff like this.

So sorry to hear of your accident. I had a similar problem with my Corp 42 when it got to me- I second Randy Mueller. He does a great job, and I couldn’t ask for a better restoration.

[Lhbone]

I'm happy to report that the seller and I came to a resolution with a fair partial refund of the purchase price, so I will be going the route of repairing the bell damage and hopefully upgrading the rotor as well while it is in the shop!

I'm leaning towards putting on an Instrument Innovations standard rotor and upgrading the linkage/lever. Does anyone have experience with the I.I. adjustable replacement package that they sell? I'd prefer the feel and look of a linkage/lever you find on any modern horn (Edwards, Shires, M&W, etc.).

Also, does anyone recognize what linkage is on this one? I have no complaints about it - it's smooth and quiet..the throw is just annoyingly large.

[Rrova]

That's definitely a keeper. Just make sure you use a really good tech. Since you're in MD, like me, I would talk to Brian Hinckley, who's also on the chat. If you're closer to VA, Jeff Bonk is another good option. Also Randy Mueller in DC. Let me know if you need contact info.

Thank you for DMV recs! I've worked with Randy a few times with great success, but I haven't met Jeff or Brian yet. Are you familiar with Larry Mizell's work? I've heard nothing but great things about him from Frederick area folks but was wondering if anyone on here had experience with custom work projects.

Congratulations on coming to an acceptable agreement with the seller! As far as Larry's work, no I don't have first hand experience. However, another tech/pro I had work done for me used to take horns up to Larry for re-lacquering quite often. Also, it appears Dillon used to send stuff to him as well. Good luck and let us know how it turns out! I have an early 90s 42B that my son uses that plays really well but could use a rebuild. While doing that I'd like to get the whole thing re-lacquered so I'm very interested in how your project turns out.

[tbonesullivan]

Looks like a custom made linkage using a plastic hobby shop ball joints, used on many Thayer valve sets.

IMHO the linkages that Instrument Innovations sells are a bit "overbuilt". Though I also like Yamaha linkages so I might not be the best person to ask.

[Lhbone]

Congratulations on coming to an acceptable agreement with the seller! As far as Larry's work, no I don't have first hand experience. However, another tech/pro I had work done for me used to take horns up to Larry for re-lacquering quite often. Also, it appears Dillon used to send stuff to him as well. Good luck and let us know how it turns out! I have an early 90s 42B that my son uses that plays really well but could use a rebuild. While doing that I'd like to get the whole thing re-lacquered so I'm very interested in how your project turns out.

Thank you - I'll keep you posted!!

[Lhbone]

Looks like a custom made linkage using a plastic hobby shop ball joints, used on many Thayer valve sets.

IMHO the linkages that Instrument Innovations sells are a bit "overbuilt". Though I also like Yamaha linkages so I might not be the best person to ask.

Ok, that makes sense and was wondering if that's all it was.

I haven't seen the I.I. in person and can't seem to find many photos of examples of them on instruments, but that's kind of the thought I had too. Is there any reason I couldn't get a different brand linkage/lever to pair with it? I'm assuming that wouldn't be hard for a tech to make work?

[tbonesullivan]

Ok, that makes sense and was wondering if that's all it was.

I haven't seen the I.I. in person and can't seem to find many photos of examples of them on instruments, but that's kind of the thought I had too. Is there any reason I couldn't get a different brand linkage/lever to pair with it? I'm assuming that wouldn't be hard for a tech to make work?

That's a question for the tech. I would definitely get in touch with them, and usually the tech will source the parts, if they don't already have them on hand. The Levers on Kanstul trombones were pretty much just hand bent finished pieces of metal, with an adjustable paddle stuck on.

They could also just use a standard Bach lever from the parts bin.

[Lhbone]

That's a question for the tech. I would definitely get in touch with them, and usually the tech will source the parts, if they don't already have them on hand. The Levers on Kanstul trombones were pretty much just hand bent finished pieces of metal, with an adjustable paddle stuck on.

They could also just use a standard Bach lever from the parts bin.

Understood, thanks! Nooooo not the Bach lever, I hate it

[Lhbone]

Another Update: Huge shoutout to Brian Hinkley (Crazy4Tbone86) for working his magic not only on the wrinkle in the bell but also bringing the valve to life - I never thought a stock Bach valve could play so well! This horn is a keeper.

I'm blown away by Brian's craftsmanship and grateful to him for squeezing me into his busy schedule so quickly. DMV folks, we have a gem of a technician here!

[dukesboneman]

Congrats on the Horn.
I have a 42 that plays really well but the "F" side of the horn was stuffy and didn`t focus well.
I had a Tech put the Instrument Innovations Rotary valve on the and I LOVE it. Plays very open and free slots well
The customer service at II is incredible.

[Lhbone]

Congrats on the Horn.
I have a 42 that plays really well but the "F" side of the horn was stuffy and didn`t focus well.
I had a Tech put the Instrument Innovations Rotary valve on the and I LOVE it. Plays very open and free slots well
The customer service at II is incredible.

That’s my plan as well - glad to hear or your great experience with the upgrade!