Carbon Fiber Trombones - thoughts?

[MBone1968]

I have never played a Carbon Fiber Trombone and was wondering how players who have owned one for awhile feel about them? Playing characteristics, resonance, etc compared to what they were playing before. Thank you ahead of time for your insights!

[elmsandr]

Plenty of threads on here about the Butler horns. Get another post or two so that you can use the search function. I have a slide. tl;dr it is different, finicky to clean and lube, but the sound is close enough and the benefits outweigh the downsides for me… most the time.

Aiden (burgerbob) has a nice video review of a bass slide that hits at some of the problems for him in using it. I agree with his points, but not his decision.

Cheers,
Andy

[muschem]

I guess I have a decent amount of experience with these at this point. I currently have three Butler trombones - the JJ model (.508), the C10 (.547), and the C12 (.562/.578). I have two additional slides being finished (one .500, and one .525). I’ve had the JJ model the longest at just over a year. Obviously, I’m a fan of these. For context, I’m not a professional player - I’m an enthusiastic hobbyist, a couple of years into a return to playing after a 20+ year break. I haven’t yet regained the facility I attained in my music performance major all those years ago, much less the stratospheric levels of excellence at which many of this forum’s members play. That said, here are my thoughts:

The light weight of these horns is hard to overstate. My dual-bore independent bass weighs less than 4 pounds, and most of that weight is centered directly over the shoulder, making for great balance. My small bore weighs less than a pbone - astonishingly light. Balance is important, in my experience. Even a very light weight horn, if not properly balanced, can be an ergonomic nightmare. I (very) briefly tried my JJ slide on a 6H bell shortly after it arrived, and that combination was not great for me - back heavy and wanted to twist counter-clockwise. It took effort to keep in a good playing position to the point that it was distracting. I was initially a bit worried about the weight distribution on the JJ bell after having it cut, but Dave was able to use a Delrin ring, which is so light that the balance didn’t shift significantly.

The slide is… different. When I started playing my small bore CF, I had to adjust my concept of what a slide “should” feel like. The outer is so light, that it carries very little inertia and stops quickly where you put it. On a metal slide, this would feel sticky… either misaligned or not properly lubed. But, the movement of the CF slides isn’t “sticky” in that sense - all of mine are very smooth and well-aligned. There’s just no carry-over motion that I think we internalize over time as “normal” on heavier metal outers. Once you get past that, these really are amazing slides. Without much of a perception of weight or inertia, it feels like (as another forum member put it) playing “air trombone” - you just think of where you want the slide, and magically, it is there.

The lubrication regimen for these slides is fairly different as well. They like to be dry. I don’t know if it is tighter tolerances between inners and outers, or a result of the carbon fiber material, or some combination of both (or something else entirely), but the surface tension of water/condensation on the slide slows it down. You feel this as resistance to movement. On my small bore, it isn’t really a problem at all - I don’t have significant condensation build up over the course of a normal session. I have noticed, though, that on my larger slides, more condensation does build up while playing, and over long sessions, they benefit from a quick wipe down with a clean, dry microfiber cloth. This is most noticeable on my bass slide. I’ve also gotten into the habit of swabbing the outers before assembling the horn after travel, as some amount of water always seems to shift around and coat the inner pretty well in transit. I started out using a light application of Berp Biolube worked in and excess wiped off, as per Butler’s recommendation. It works pretty well, but it is… finicky - too little is better than too much, here. I experimented for a while with Yamasnot on top of the Berp lube, but that is easy to get too heavy on these slides, causing some resistance in movement, similar to the feeling as condensation builds up. More recently, I’ve been experimenting with a product called SimpleCoat, which was discussed in a different thread on this forum. I find SimpleCoat to be easier and more consistent for great action, but there are some unknowns, so caveat emptor.

The condensation valve is placed a bit differently on these - personally, it works great for me, but I guess it isn’t for everyone. I have long arms and no trouble reaching the valve, but I can see it being a bit problematic for some. I believe Aiden noted in his review of a bass slide that the condensation release from the valve was not particularly well controlled. I don’t have that problem on my JJ or my C12, but my C10 seems to spray condensation far and wide when I press the valve and blow through, so I can definitely relate. It isn’t something I consider to be a large problem, but it is worth noting. I also like the curved hand brace on the slide. I find it very comfortable to hold, but different strokes here as well - I’ve heard different opinions of this design.

How do they play? I love them. The sound character for CF (to me) isn’t wildly different as compared to an all-brass horn. I mentioned their light weight, but to me, these don’t play like light weight brass horns. I find the timbre slightly darker than many of the brass trombones I’ve played of similar sizes, and they can be pushed very hard without breaking up. Leadpipe choice really makes a difference on these horns, in my experience. I find the difference out the front of the bell fairly small, especially the further out you get into the audience. But, the difference behind the bell can seem larger on CF than on brass instruments I’ve tried. For me, a lot of that is down to player feedback. The material seems to do a good job focusing sound out toward the audience, perhaps at the cost of reduced feedback behind the bell. Finding the right combination of mouthpiece and leadpipe materials/form has been really valuable. Combinations that might be over the top on a non-CF horn do well for me on CF. I find that these blend very well in a section.

The cost for these horns is not insubstantial, but they aren’t priced outside the normal range for boutique/custom metal horns. The lead time is pretty long for ordering new - my C10 was over a year in the making, though, to be fair, there were some unplanned delays in the supply chain (parts unavailable, plater had a vat fail, etc.) that Butler couldn’t have predicted. However, you can on occasion find these in stock at retailers. I was able to pick up my C12 at Dillon a couple months ago with no wait, and I recently heard that Schmitt is partnering with Butler, so you may see some there in the future as well… probably other retailers have these from time to time. The used market is pretty small so far, as not a huge number of these are in circulation. I’ve seen the DaCarbo horns for sale used more often than Butler, but I haven’t looked hard on the used market.

That’s a long and winding reply, but hopefully, it touched on some of what you wanted to know. I’m always happy to chat about gear. I can’t buy back the chops I used to have, but I love to try out new equipment

[Posaunus]

Muschem,

Thanks for your detailed summary. I'm hardly in the market for a carbon fiber trombone, but I played a Butler tenor at ITA a few years ago and have been curious since. Excellent overview!

[elmsandr]

The slide action you note is funny… if I were to describe it with metrics, the coefficient of friction is definitely higher. But the mass is SO much lighter it doesn’t matter. Does it feel sticky? Maybe, but it has no resistance… so it doesn’t matter, but it still feels weird for a minute.

Cheers,
Andy

[2bobone]

In response to "muschem"s post : I just wanted to compliment you on your TC post regarding your Butler trombones. You must hold the record for owning the most Butler trombones in the TC community and beyond. You are definitely Dave’s best customer !
I was about to post to the OPs query, but after seeing your lengthy, very comprehensive and accurate post I decided that I couldn’t add anything to your response that would be useful. Great job ! Your comments about the feedback behind the horn was especially well expressed. The Butler is definitely a different experience !
I also have a C-12 with both the regular and dual-bore slides. I much prefer the dual-bore and even encouraged Dave to make it the default slide to offer with the C-12.
In regards to the “Speedy-Flo” water key : I removed mine almost immediately and fitted a “JoyKey” instead on both slides. It made a huge difference in having to deal with condensation creeping up the slide and making it “sticky” because it is a state of constant draining. The only attention it requires is that it be cleaned occasionally as detritus from both slide lubricants and the player's saliva can clog the capillary-sized passages in the cartridge. I use an inexpensive ultrasonic machine which cleans them in a few minutes. I keep several spares and rotate them. Highly recommended !
I know that the Butler concept is not for everyone, but when some high profile players use them BUT have them painted a brass color, you know that "brass bias" is a real thing ! Many conductors really do hear with their eyes !
Dave Butler has answered a need and doesn't get enough credit for his confident attitude that produced his creations !

[johntarr]

As has ben said, muschem’s post is very comprehensive and does a good job of summing up the Butler experience. I own two, a C10 with valve and a straight C8 with a screw bell. My first Butler was the C10, which I was able to try and buy used. I had developed some chronic shoulder pain after wrestling for too long with an unbalanced and awkward (for me) to hold horn and the Butler allowed me to continue practicing while recovering. Later, I ordered the C8 for playing jazz and it is by far the easiest instrument to hold and play in terms of ergonomics.

The horns are both excellent instruments but I found myself struggling with clarity of articulation on certain notes, especially in the high register. I just figured it was me and that I needed to clean up my tonguing. At some point I began using the school instrument where I teach, which is a Jupiter copy of a 36B. Even though it’s not a great instrument, I found that it was easier for me to articulate and when I played it in my orchestra, my trumpet colleague said he found it easier to blend and tune with me when I used brass as opposed to the CF. Additionally, we had just played Dvorak 9th and I found myself struggling again with accuracy, and felt that I didn’t fit in with the rest of the brass section.

I had the opportunity to play on a 36 and it just felt much better in terms of articulation and security in the high range. After that, I decided to get a 36 and through a chain of fortuitous events ended up acquiring 34, which is a horn I really enjoy playing. I’m also in the process of buying a 36B and will most likely sell the C10.

From the ergonomic perspective, I’d really like to continue using the Butlers but from the sound perspective I just enjoy brass. Maybe I should mess around with lead pipes but I don’t have access to a variety to compare. I do think that Butler’s instruments are well made and have their place plus I think they will evolve just as brass is evolving as well.

[dembones]

I have a Butler C8 (.525) straight horn I've had for almost 2 years, and a Butler outer for my Lawler 2 (.500/.508) I've had for 5 years. I love playing both horns. A couple of comments:

Regarding slide action - When I first got the CF outer for my Lawler, I was frustrated for some time by the "sticky" feeling. Over time that has completely gone away. I can't think why there would be any breaking-in for a CF slide, but it seems that way. Now it's perfect. I use a small bit of Berp Biolube on the stockings, wipe that with a loosely-held microfiber cloth so only a thin film remains, then a drop or two of Yamaha - work it in for a couple of minutes and it's good to go - I can get three or sometimes four days of playing out of it, it's smooth and free, feels fantastic. The slide on the C8 felt great from the start, with the same treatment I get just as good results.

Regarding the blow - The feel and tone of the Butler C8 improved *greatly* when I got a sterling silver M/K Drawing lead pipe I found here in the classifieds. Everything centered better, particularly in the high range, and the tone had more "depth" for lack of better words. I highly recommend it over the Edwards pipe it comes with. Otherwise, I guess I do like the feel and tone of the Lawler over the Butler, but it's close, and some of that is just due to bore size.

[johntarr]

I have a Butler C8 (.525) straight horn I've had for almost 2 years, and a Butler outer for my Lawler 2 (.500/.508) I've had for 5 years. I love playing both horns. A couple of comments:

Regarding slide action - When I first got the CF outer for my Lawler, I was frustrated for some time by the "sticky" feeling. Over time that has completely gone away. I can't think why there would be any breaking-in for a CF slide, but it seems that way. Now it's perfect. I use a small bit of Berp Biolube on the stockings, wipe that with a loosely-held microfiber cloth so only a thin film remains, then a drop or two of Yamaha - work it in for a couple of minutes and it's good to go - I can get three or sometimes four days of playing out of it, it's smooth and free, feels fantastic. The slide on the C8 felt great from the start, with the same treatment I get just as good results.

Regarding the blow - The feel and tone of the Butler C8 improved *greatly* when I got a sterling silver M/K Drawing lead pipe I found here in the classifieds. Everything centered better, particularly in the high range, and the tone had more "depth" for lack of better words. I highly recommend it over the Edwards pipe it comes with. Otherwise, I guess I do like the feel and tone of the Lawler over the Butler, but it's close, and some of that is just due to bore size.

That’s an interesting aspect, getting a different lead pipe. Did you get one with a threaded ring? On their website, all the .525 bore lead pipes have pull rings.

Thanks, John

[elmsandr]

They will put a threaded collar (from instrument innovations) on their slides if you want it. I have the bi-threaded collar on mine.

Cheers,
Andy

[dembones]

Regarding the blow - The feel and tone of the Butler C8 improved *greatly* when I got a sterling silver M/K Drawing lead pipe I found here in the classifieds.

That’s an interesting aspect, getting a different lead pipe. Did you get one with a threaded ring? On their website, all the .525 bore lead pipes have pull rings.

Thanks, John

I found mine here in the classifieds like I said, it just had the pull ring. I wrapped some teflon plumber's tape around it just below the pull ring until it fits snugly - works great.

[johntarr]

How do they play? I love them. The sound character for CF (to me) isn’t wildly different as compared to an all-brass horn. I mentioned their light weight, but to me, these don’t play like light weight brass horns. I find the timbre slightly darker than many of the brass trombones I’ve played of similar sizes, and they can be pushed very hard without breaking up. Leadpipe choice really makes a difference on these horns, in my experience. I find the difference out the front of the bell fairly small, especially the further out you get into the audience. But, the difference behind the bell can seem larger on CF than on brass instruments I’ve tried. For me, a lot of that is down to player feedback.

That’s a long and winding reply, but hopefully, it touched on some of what you wanted to know. I’m always happy to chat about gear. I can’t buy back the chops I used to have, but I love to try out new equipment

Which lead pipes have you tried and find work?

Thanks, John

[muschem]

Leadpipe choice really makes a difference on these horns, in my experience. I find the difference out the front of the bell fairly small, especially the further out you get into the audience. But, the difference behind the bell can seem larger on CF than on brass instruments I’ve tried. For me, a lot of that is down to player feedback.

Which lead pipes have you tried and find work?

Thanks, John

For me, sterling silver and nickel pipes have worked best. The feedback on the chops for both of those materials is great, and once you find a design that you like, choosing a material comes down to your preferred sound concept. In terms of which pipes I use specifically, I've tried several, but here's my current setup:

• C12 (.562): I currently play a sterling Edwards B2 and I'm on the schedule for a BrassArk/Brad Close MV50 (their BH62 pipe has a really nice bark, but I've only tried the yellow brass version)
• C10 (.547): I'm currently using a seamed sterling MV42 from BrassArk, but the Edwards sterling T-AR pipe is also great.
• JJ (.508): I use BrassArk's 32H in either seamed sterling or drawn nickel

[krstbone]

I’d like to weigh in on the carbon fiber trombone discussion. After performing on my Bach Strad for over thirty years, I realized that I was having some physical issues with my absolute favorite trombone.
I had the help of Lloyd Fillio in putting together this wonderful instrument. After a couple of hours trying various bells (42, all flavors) and slides (mainly 50 light weight), I came up with my killer combo. Lloyd then asked me if I had tried his new (1992) mega mouthpieces. He let me try his prototype 5G and I loved it. Since they needed to make one for me, Lloyd took me out to lunch while they made it. After lunch and a personal tour of the factory, he presented me with my new mouthpiece. Long story short, I have never found a horn that could top my Bach. I could punch a hole in the back wall of the hall (Yeah Mahler 3) and the horn seemed to say, “is that all you got?!?” What I discovered was that this horn was the best all-around instrument I’d ever played from the symphony to brass quintets to solo work, from loudest to a completely controlled pianissimo.
Two years ago, suffering from a bad case of tennis elbow and being tired of using my ERGObone, a fellow trombonist suggested I look into Butler trombones. After a couple of long phone calls with David Butler where I said I wanted something that I could perform another twenty years on, he suggested matching my Bach’s set-up. About 4 months later I got the horn and tried it out knowing that I could easily return it if I did not like it. In testing it out with my family and friends most could not tell the difference in blind trials. One of my good trombone buddies (30 year career with “Pershing Own” Army Band) also could not distinguish between the two horns. I was sold!
Playing a carbon fiber horn does take getting used to it. You do not get the same aural feedback that you have with a brass horn. Everything projects forward (hardness of the CF?). My contractors have teased me that I have a P-Bone toy until they hear me play it.
In closing, I went from nearly 12 lbs. of the Bach to not quite 7 lbs. of the Butler. My physical issues have disappeared and I’m confident that I’ll get that twenty years more!

I will later post my thoughts on how to get the best out of the slide!

[Burgerbob]

Small quibble, even (brass) heavy bass trombones are just around 6 pounds.

[meine]

Does somebody know someone who has a C12 in Europe? Would like to try them out.

[krstbone]

Aidan Ritchie,
Thanks for the quibble! You inspired me to actually weigh my horns (can’t depend on the trumpet player’s weigh assessment). The basic verdict: Bach 42BO Heavy-4 lbs. 12 oz. The Butler-3 lbs. 10.2 oz. My arms know the nearly 25% reduction. Just did a job this afternoon (including Copeland: The Promise of Living and Bernstein: Overture and Glitter and Gay from Candide) with many nice compliments. I love my Bach but the Butler has replaced it!

Keith R. Smith

[fwbassbone]

I'm not going to make a long post on my C12 (.562/.578). I will say that because of several injuries to my left thumb and wrist the lighter weight is a godsend. It plays great and doesn't hurt.

[Reedman1]

My daily player is a JJ (.508) that I was lucky enough to get used. I took to the slide immediately, and have had no troubles keeping it clean and functioning well. I use a very thin coating of Berp Biolube on the stockings, with a drop of the small bottle of Slide-O-Mix or Yamaha lube to help out. I use an Edwards #1 leadpipe rather than the #3 that came with it; I’d be interested in trying other options when funds allow. The light weight of the horn is a huge asset.
I have no trouble with articulations (but this is a small bore horn, so that probably helps).
Personally, I so disliked the Williams-style cross brace that I had it replaced with something more ergonomic from Carol Brass. Different strokes, I guess.
The cool new space-age counterweight from Butler is also a great investment. You can really fine-tune the fore-aft balance and torque.
I regularly get compliments on my sound when I play it, so I think the sound is fine.

[Burgerbob]

Aidan Ritchie,
Thanks for the quibble! You inspired me to actually weigh my horns (can’t depend on the trumpet player’s weigh assessment). The basic verdict: Bach 42BO Heavy-4 lbs. 12 oz. The Butler-3 lbs. 10.2 oz. My arms know the nearly 25% reduction. Just did a job this afternoon (including Copeland: The Promise of Living and Bernstein: Overture and Glitter and Gay from Candide) with many nice compliments. I love my Bach but the Butler has replaced it!

Keith R. Smith

It doesn't seem like a lot of weight... but even saving a quarter of a pound on a bass makes a huge difference. And the carbon horns save much more!

[Wilco]

Does somebody know someone who has a C12 in Europe? Would like to try them out.

I think I saw Nick Scholl with one in a video…

[SwissTbone]

Does somebody know someone who has a C12 in Europe? Would like to try them out.

I think I saw Nick Scholl with one in a video…

I hope to be able to stock Butler trombones within this year.

[meine]

I think I saw Nick Scholl with one in a video…

I hope to be able to stock Butler trombones within this year.

Cool!

[whitbey]

I have not played a carbon fiber horn. But I do have a sterling silver bell.

I have read carbon fiber does not break up. That also translates into does not light up.

I have found that sterling silver while it has a beautiful sound does not light up.

I would say the copper bells light up more and brass a modest amount compared to the sterling silver.

When I play my sterling silver bell in orchestra or concert band, it seem directors want more edge then the sterling bell gives to make the articulations lay down the time better. So for most playing in orchestra or concert band I use a brass bell. The more laid back music that does not have the hits and aggressive playing I find the sterling silver bell sounds prettier.

So to bring the right equipment to the gig, one would need to understand what the director wishes for when they do not know the equipment variations.

I would be concerned that the carbon fiber would not deliver.

I usually use my sterling silver bell for quintet. I see the Canadian Brass tuba uses a carbon bell. This is something I can listen to. I think the demands of quintet make sterling silver work well and carbon fiber work well. Also, tuba may be different then trombone.

[Reedman1]

I have not played a carbon fiber horn. But I do have a sterling silver bell.

I have read carbon fiber does not break up. That also translates into does not light up.

I have found that sterling silver while it has a beautiful sound does not light up.

I would say the copper bells light up more and brass a modest amount compared to the sterling silver.

When I play my sterling silver bell in orchestra or concert band, it seem directors want more edge then the sterling bell gives to make the articulations lay down the time better. So for most playing in orchestra or concert band I use a brass bell. The more laid back music that does not have the hits and aggressive playing I find the sterling silver bell sounds prettier.

So to bring the right equipment to the gig, one would need to understand what the director wishes for when they do not know the equipment variations.

I would be concerned that the carbon fiber would not deliver.

I usually use my sterling silver bell for quintet. I see the Canadian Brass tuba uses a carbon bell. This is something I can listen to. I think the demands of quintet make sterling silver work well and carbon fiber work well. Also, tuba may be different then trombone.

You should play a carbon fiber trombone to find out for yourself. As far as lighting up or breaking up, there’s more than one way to achieve that goal.

[harrisonreed]

If you drop it hard enough it will break up!

[johntarr]

If you drop it hard enough it will break up!

That’s only when playing in the Pete Townsend style. Otherwise, there’s no need for the trombone to be broken up.

[johntarr]

Does somebody know someone who has a C12 in Europe? Would like to try them out.

Here’s a review from Kieth Wilson.

[jorymil]

I've wanted a CF trombone for a long time, but financially, they're beyond my means at the moment (reentering the grad school world for 2-3 years). It's nice to hear that brass horns aren't that much lighter; after all, brass tubing is only a couple of hundredths of an inch thick. But mass _distribution_ is a big deal, too: most horns aren't perfectly balanced to begin with, and we have to exert torque in two axes with our hand to keep things in check. The heavier the slide, the more the horn becomes front-heavy as you extend the slide, so lighter slides, all else being equal, disturb balance less. But you lose the extra momentum of the outer slide ("wrist flick") for turns and such. Man, this instrument is an ergonomic nightmare! If it weren't for the sound, we would all be playing trumpet!

As for a horn "lighting up," obviously you know what you mean when you hear it, but if you'd like to measure it, record the horn played both softly and at volume, then post the audio files. The frequency distributions should be visibly different, and ideally you'd be able to see at what volume that sudden change in frequency distribution happens. The more additional information you can record (mouthpiece type, air temperature, etc.), the better. Can you tell I'd like to try this myself (but am lazy)?

The thinking is that at a certain point, you actually get shock waves building up in the instrument. (_The Science of Brass Instruments_, Springer, 2021, Ch. 6.1).