4 Trombones in an Orchestra

ttf_seanschramm · Post by **ttf_seanschramm** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:27 am

Hey y'all,

So recently my town made a civic orchestra and we've had an amazing turnout of musicians. However, with that said, we now have 4 trombone players. Of course we can't turn someone away, but there is only 3 trombones needed. The principle wants there to be 2 3rd trombones (one playing a tenor while another playing a bass), while I suggest 2 on 2nd trombone, as that is the thinnest part. What are you guy's suggestions?

Thanks!

ttf_uncle duke · Post by **ttf_uncle duke** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:39 am

Hold a challenge session, move one to euphonium? or first come,first serve. I wonder how the principal would react if the other three were better players than he.

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:42 am

How about rotate assignments so there are only 3 trombones on any piece?

ttf_hyperbolica · Post by **ttf_hyperbolica** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:45 am

Draw straws. Short straw learns viola.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:04 pm

If all four are playing all the time and the extra player has to be on a single part, I'd prefer to double second. Bass trombone players seldom need reinforcements.

You might also find that you need four trombones on the roster just to have reasonable assurance that you'll have three at every rehearsal and concert.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:24 pm

I have a situation with 4 trombones on the roster. One is my designated sub. He generally gets to play 1-2 concerts a season (we play 4). Fortunately, all of my players can double bass (and 2 of us play alto). Also, one of my guys is a phenomenal keyboard player and is often called upon to play that (lets the Sub play in).

We also have 3 bassoons. They rotate in: play 2 concerts, out one.

If you need to have everybody play every rehearsal, make one the Assistant Principal -- plays all the LOUD sections only. Similar to what is often done in the Horn section.

How solid are the other sections of the orchestra? Could your 4th play 2nd Bassoon? 4th Horn? Bass Clarinet? Cello? (I mean the parts, not the instrument itself)

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:09 pm

I don't know how demanding the first part is in an orchestra (or even if you're using the word the way I do.)

I play in a band that carries four people. The extra player plays first, for two reasons. One is that when one can't make it, the other is familiar with the music. The other reason is that the first part in band can be tiring. That doesn't affect a real pro, but at the am level endurance is a consideration.

ttf_Le.Tromboniste · Post by **ttf_Le.Tromboniste** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:59 pm

Never had to deal with doubling a part in a symphonic setting aside from joint projects where all parts are doubled. In the concert bands I was part of, we usually aimed to have 4 players, and we mostly doubled the 2nd part. Doubling the first never seemed to give the right balance, whereas doubling 2nd usually fit nicely. Having 4 is also nice for the occasional 4-part pieces, or in arrangements of some film music where the you might want to have the bass trombone doubling the tubas.

ttf_Rockymountaintrombone · Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:58 pm

You could rotate the players (at least the tenor trombones). The player who doesn't have his/her own part for the given piece could either go get a coffee, or act as an assistant - playing along on the unisons and playing a few notes here and there to provide relief for the 1st player. Major orchestras carry 4 players and do this, as do many major conservatories like Juilliard and Curtis. An extra player can be very useful at times.

Jim Scott

ttf_seanschramm · Post by **ttf_seanschramm** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:18 pm

Quote from: uncle duke on Mar 24, 2017, 11:39AMHold a challenge session, move one to euphonium? or first come,first serve. I wonder how the principal would react if the other three were better players than he.

Between you and I, all of the other trombonists are, we just don't want to deal with him fussing.

Also, thanks to all of y'all for the input. We've decided that since I can play alto, tenor, bass, and bass trumpet, that I'll play second trombone parts (having two trombones to 2nd) if the full section is there, but if one of the guys can't play, or if there is a bass trumpet part, I'll fill in.

ttf_eightyeightH · Post by **ttf_eightyeightH** » Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:26 pm

You think you've got a problem? The concert band I play with has when at full strength 11 trombones. 5 of which are bass.

ttf_Radar · Post by **ttf_Radar** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:08 am

Quote from: uncle duke on Mar 24, 2017, 11:39AMHold a challenge session, move one to euphonium? or first come,first serve. I wonder how the principal would react if the other three were better players than he.

There is so little orchestral literature that requires Euphonium that this is going to leave one of the players out most of the time. I had suggested doubling the bass as the lead player prefered, but after reading the other responses that is probably not the best option. There was a suggestion that the extra trombone play an uncovered part (liked second Bassoon) from another bass instrument. This would probably be a good alternative. Community groups like this do have to get creative with instrumentation from time to time, and ultimately who plays what part should be a joint decision between the Conductor and the section leader, although in this case it sounds like the section leader may not be the best person to make that decision.

ttf_Hicks · Post by **ttf_Hicks** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:16 am

I agree with the suggestions to double the 2nd trom part.

ttf_Hicks · Post by **ttf_Hicks** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:18 am

Quote from: eightyeightH on Mar 27, 2017, 03:26PMYou think you've got a problem? The concert band I play with has when at full strength 11 trombones. 5 of which are bass.

Mighty sound.
But can you get them all in tune?

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:34 am

Quote from: Hicks on Yesterday at 07:16 AMI agree with the suggestions to double the 2nd trom part.

2nd parts usually have the most interesting (challenging?) harmonies/intervals. It's frustrating to double 2nd part with someone who has a different interpretation of where to put their pitch. It could sound great with either one or the other by themselves on 2nd, but doubling parts gets hairy.

It's frustrating to double any part -- even a 1c difference will drive you nuts.

ttf_uncle duke · Post by **ttf_uncle duke** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:41 am

2nd Bassoon could work and it would be interesting to see what would happen if a soli or solo presented itself while covering 2nd bassoon.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:46 am

Quote from: uncle duke on Yesterday at 09:41 AM2nd Bassoon could work and it would be interesting to see what would happen if a soli or solo presented itself while covering 2nd bassoon.

Beethoven's 6th Symphony has a 2nd bassoon solo in the 3rd movement where the bassoon is imitating a trombone in a town band. Just desserts

In one community orchestra I've played bassoon, horn, and cello parts at various times. If they didn't rehearse on a day that I have other commitments I might play with them more.

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:51 am

-Rotation in and out for different pieces on the same program.

-For the big stuff, double 1st part. Both players play the fortissimo bits. Principal player saves their lip to do all the solos. Assistant takes some of the load and plays the more mundane parts.

Doubling 3rd or 2nd makes no sense at all.

Playing a part meant for another instrument is absolutely ridiculous.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:54 am

Quote from: bbocaner on Yesterday at 11:51 AM...

Playing a part meant for another instrument is absolutely ridiculous.

Beats "dead air". I agree that the proper instrument for a part is ideal. But some small community ensembles may have a problem filling chairs. Especially for free with no money for "ringers".

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:01 pm

It's too bad you all play at once.

For as few notes as you play in an orchestra, and as little demand on your endurance, one player would be plenty. You'd just have to write the parts so they were always separate.

On a similar note, there is no point in everybody owning a lawnmower. You mow once a week, every seventh house having a mower should be plenty. It just takes proper planning.

ttf_BillO · Post by **ttf_BillO** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:14 pm

Quote from: bbocaner on Jun 22, 2017, 11:51AM
Doubling 3rd or 2nd makes no sense at all.

What if your 3rd player was really weak? 3rd/bass is often a more important part than 2nd in concert band and orchestral music. In that case I'd be tempted to double up on the 3rd chair rather than 1st.

Here's how I'd decide.

If your new player is your best or 2nd best player, put him on 1st.

If he's your 3rd best player:
- If he and you 4th player (presumably on 3rd) are too weak for 2nd, put him on 3rd and double up on 3rd
- If current 3rd can play 2nd move him to 2nd and move 2nd to 1st. Then put the new player on 3rd

If he's your 4th best player put him 2nd and move your current 2nd up to 1st.

ttf_bbocaner · Post by **ttf_bbocaner** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:19 pm

Quote from: BillO on Jun 22, 2017, 12:14PMWhat if your 3rd player was really weak? 3rd/bass is often a more important part than 2nd in concert band and orchestral music. In that case I'd be tempted to double up on the 3rd chair rather than 1st.

Here's how I'd decide.

If your new player is your best or 2nd best player, put him on 1st.

If he's your 3rd best player:
- If he and you 4th player (presumably on 3rd) are too weak for 2nd, put him on 3rd and double up on 3rd
- If current 3rd can play 2nd move him to 2nd and move 2nd to 1st. Then put the new player on 3rd

If he's your 4th best player put him 2nd and move your current 2nd up to 1st.

I don't understand why you'd have someone out at all who couldn't cover the part??

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:29 pm

Quote from: bbocaner on Jun 22, 2017, 01:19PMI don't understand why you'd have someone out at all who couldn't cover the part??

Many community orchestras take all comers -- they are a place to come and play. Sometimes a bunch of folks show up -- more than you can assign parts to. So you have two choices: allow more than one to a part or audition to take the best 3 (or whatever).

Some other groups audition. They demand a certain level of musicianship. But a beginner or new returnee doesn't usually have that musicianship so where can they get it? At the Community Orchestra that takes all comers.

ttf_timothy42b · Post by **ttf_timothy42b** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 5:05 am

Quote from: bbocaner on Jun 22, 2017, 01:19PMI don't understand why you'd have someone out at all who couldn't cover the part??

I haven't run into it in a community orchestra, and I had no idea there were orchestras that took all comers until this thread. I'm not sure I'd want to play in one.

In a community band, yes, it isn't uncommon to have some section players who are not as skilled and wouldn't be comfortable either alone or on an upper part. Some older players who handle the second book fairly well would not have the endurance to make it through a rehearsal on 1st.

I don't know about big bands. It's my general sense that you have to invited to sit in at all.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Fri Jun 23, 2017 7:41 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Jun 22, 2017, 01:29PMSome other groups audition. They demand a certain level of musicianshipEven in groups that require auditions, compromises are sometimes made - most often in order to fill positions on hard-to-find instruments.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:21 am

Quote from: JohnL on Yesterday at 07:41 AMEven in groups that require auditions, compromises are sometimes made - most often in order to fill positions on hard-to-find instruments.

True, but that's not the case here. They have 4 players for 3 chairs. How do you make it equitable? Lots of suggestions here.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:42 am

It is not fun to double a trombone part in an orchestra. In the military we were two on each part. We were six, but all could play so it was not to hard to stay in tune. Now days I sometimes play with the orchestra of the swedish police and if all are there we are two on first and two on second and one on bass. It works. When there is a solo only one play. It is unusual for me to double a part on trombone, but I guess it is something you just learn clarinets do that all the time.

/Tom

ttf_Dennis Clason · Post by **ttf_Dennis Clason** » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:59 am

Quote from: bbocaner on Jun 22, 2017, 01:19PMI don't understand why you'd have someone out at all who couldn't cover the part??

John Paynter is supposed to have said (of a weak player in the North Shore [Chicago] Band), "We don't need her, but she needs us."

I have no idea whether that story is true or apocryphal, but I know (and appreciate) the sentiment of it.

ttf_Dennis Clason · Post by **ttf_Dennis Clason** » Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:59 am

Quote from: bbocaner on Jun 22, 2017, 01:19PMI don't understand why you'd have someone out at all who couldn't cover the part??

John Paynter is supposed to have said (of a weak player in the North Shore [Chicago] Band), "We don't need her, but she needs us."

I have no idea whether that story is true or apocryphal, but I know (and appreciate) the sentiment of it.