Advice on Hitting High Notes?
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
by definition high register requires less quantities of air.
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
If I only could find the post from Ralph Sauer how to hit high notes. It was a bit funny but I'm sure effective. If I remember correct it was about short high notes and he told to use the same muscles as when sitting on the toilet...it had something to do with air But I dont remember exactly what words he used.
My take on high notes must be read with a lot of salt since its my struggle number one
I believe how we use the air is important. Maybe less than we think but with lot of support. The vocal is best with eeeee. Embouchure muscles around the mouth should point in to the center of the buzz.
Well, again read with lot of salt....I cant play high. I can in fact play chords up to the very high D. But cant play safe over the high G above the staff. The problem is I cant get it controlled even if I can hit them.
Low end also has a lot to do with using the air not to much, but also not to little.
Leif
My take on high notes must be read with a lot of salt since its my struggle number one
I believe how we use the air is important. Maybe less than we think but with lot of support. The vocal is best with eeeee. Embouchure muscles around the mouth should point in to the center of the buzz.
Well, again read with lot of salt....I cant play high. I can in fact play chords up to the very high D. But cant play safe over the high G above the staff. The problem is I cant get it controlled even if I can hit them.
Low end also has a lot to do with using the air not to much, but also not to little.
Leif
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Leif,
I've found that both on trumpet and trombone, breath attacks and the so called sub-tones help with accuracy in high register.
I've found that both on trumpet and trombone, breath attacks and the so called sub-tones help with accuracy in high register.
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 22, 2017, 01:53PMPlease define "proper support" b/c I am led to believe there are some here who erroneously feel there is no need for it.
...Geezer
Geezer,
I've heard Philip play, he really knows his stuff. His high range is amazing.
I personally don't know how to define proper support. I believe it is important but I also think when you tell someone to support, without being there in person to show them what you mean, that they always interpret that to tense the abdominal muscles like they were going to be punched, and I'm pretty sure that's wrong.
I guess you could do an experiment. Hold a high note, one above where you can play loud. Focus your attention on your abdomen, consciously relax it, and slowly add a small amount of firmness and see what happens to the note. If you build yourself a bad habit trying this don't blame me.
...Geezer
Geezer,
I've heard Philip play, he really knows his stuff. His high range is amazing.
I personally don't know how to define proper support. I believe it is important but I also think when you tell someone to support, without being there in person to show them what you mean, that they always interpret that to tense the abdominal muscles like they were going to be punched, and I'm pretty sure that's wrong.
I guess you could do an experiment. Hold a high note, one above where you can play loud. Focus your attention on your abdomen, consciously relax it, and slowly add a small amount of firmness and see what happens to the note. If you build yourself a bad habit trying this don't blame me.
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: savio on Mar 22, 2017, 03:07PMIf I only could find the post from Ralph Sauer how to hit high notes. It was a bit funny but I'm sure effective. If I remember correct it was about short high notes and he told to use the same muscles as when sitting on the toilet...it had something to do with air But I dont remember exactly what words he used.
Leif
Leif,
The quote I heard was attributed to Dominick Sperra, a trumpet player of note in the 70s. It's second hand but my brother was at his clinic. He may have stolen it from Ralph. Or, vice versa.
He said, "Hold the 50 cent piece in. (in your bottom) And don't make change!"
In David Vining's book on breathing, he talks about the pelvic floor as being like a second diaphragm.
Leif
Leif,
The quote I heard was attributed to Dominick Sperra, a trumpet player of note in the 70s. It's second hand but my brother was at his clinic. He may have stolen it from Ralph. Or, vice versa.
He said, "Hold the 50 cent piece in. (in your bottom) And don't make change!"
In David Vining's book on breathing, he talks about the pelvic floor as being like a second diaphragm.
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 23, 2017, 06:56AMLeif,
The quote I heard was attributed to Dominick Sperra, a trumpet player of note in the 70s. It's second hand but my brother was at his clinic. He may have stolen it from Ralph. Or, vice versa.
He said, "Hold the 50 cent piece in. (in your bottom) And don't make change!"
In David Vining's book on breathing, he talks about the pelvic floor as being like a second diaphragm.
Rather contradictory to your poo-pooing breath support, eh?
...Geezer
The quote I heard was attributed to Dominick Sperra, a trumpet player of note in the 70s. It's second hand but my brother was at his clinic. He may have stolen it from Ralph. Or, vice versa.
He said, "Hold the 50 cent piece in. (in your bottom) And don't make change!"
In David Vining's book on breathing, he talks about the pelvic floor as being like a second diaphragm.
Rather contradictory to your poo-pooing breath support, eh?
...Geezer
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 23, 2017, 07:08AMRather contradictory to your poo-pooing breath support, eh?
...Geezer
Geezer,
Conventional wisdom 50 years ago was to tighten the stomach muscles as much as possible.
That is no longer in style, and some believe it may have been the cause of the rash of hernias in trumpet players.
I've been reluctant to give my ideas of breath support but I guess I will share them for your ridicule, next chance I get.
...Geezer
Geezer,
Conventional wisdom 50 years ago was to tighten the stomach muscles as much as possible.
That is no longer in style, and some believe it may have been the cause of the rash of hernias in trumpet players.
I've been reluctant to give my ideas of breath support but I guess I will share them for your ridicule, next chance I get.
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 23, 2017, 07:12AMGeezer,
Conventional wisdom 50 years ago was to tighten the stomach muscles as much as possible.
That is no longer in style, and some believe it may have been the cause of the rash of hernias in trumpet players.
I've been reluctant to give my ideas of breath support but I guess I will share them for your ridicule, next chance I get.
That believe is on you. Maybe it's the pain meds.
Who says?
...Geezer
Conventional wisdom 50 years ago was to tighten the stomach muscles as much as possible.
That is no longer in style, and some believe it may have been the cause of the rash of hernias in trumpet players.
I've been reluctant to give my ideas of breath support but I guess I will share them for your ridicule, next chance I get.
That believe is on you. Maybe it's the pain meds.
Who says?
...Geezer
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 23, 2017, 07:08AMRather contradictory to your poo-pooing breath support, eh?
...Geezer
OMG Next thing to do - WC trombone method book
...Geezer
OMG Next thing to do - WC trombone method book
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 19, 2017, 09:02AMAn aperture is a three dimensional tunnel. An orifice is a two dimensional hole in a thin flat plate.
Not sure where your definitions come from. They don't seem to agree with accepted definitions of these words.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice
Not sure where your definitions come from. They don't seem to agree with accepted definitions of these words.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: bonenick on Mar 23, 2017, 07:15AMOMG Next thing to do - WC trombone method book
What is "WC"? I tried Googling "WC trombone method book" and got nothing.
...Geezer
What is "WC"? I tried Googling "WC trombone method book" and got nothing.
...Geezer
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: BillO on Mar 23, 2017, 07:31AMNot sure where your definitions come from. They don't seem to agree with accepted definitions of these words.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice
I guess I'm at risk for "ridiculing" Tim, but maybe it's his passive-aggressive style of expression and I paraphrase: "I can't find the source, but I kinda, sorta think he meant...", or "I can't take the time to find the exact quote, but I maybe, sorta, kinda think he meant...", or "My memory isn't what it used to be, but I kinda, sorta, maybe think it went something like this...".
I'm kinda, sorta, much more inclined to give credence to a thought that is more concretely expressed.
Anyway, to paraphrase Pre59 in another thread, the subject of high-range development will surely come up again and again and again. Maybe we will get it right next time!
...Geezer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_(disambiguation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice
I guess I'm at risk for "ridiculing" Tim, but maybe it's his passive-aggressive style of expression and I paraphrase: "I can't find the source, but I kinda, sorta think he meant...", or "I can't take the time to find the exact quote, but I maybe, sorta, kinda think he meant...", or "My memory isn't what it used to be, but I kinda, sorta, maybe think it went something like this...".
I'm kinda, sorta, much more inclined to give credence to a thought that is more concretely expressed.
Anyway, to paraphrase Pre59 in another thread, the subject of high-range development will surely come up again and again and again. Maybe we will get it right next time!
...Geezer
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 23, 2017, 07:49AMWhat is "WC"? I tried Googling "WC trombone method book" and got nothing.
...Geezer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet
...Geezer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Well...while you were brainstorming over the pooing concept...maybe we should change the practice room to a more convenient room....nevertheless, a long handslide could be a problem.
Could be it was a bad joke
Could be it was a bad joke
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Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 23, 2017, 07:49AMWhat is "WC"? I tried Googling "WC trombone method book" and got nothing.
...Geezer
WC = Water Closet ... (toilet, maybe?)...
...Geezer
WC = Water Closet ... (toilet, maybe?)...
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Quote from: BillO on Mar 23, 2017, 08:07AMWC = Water Closet ... (toilet, maybe?)...
Oh! Yeah, I think that's what he meant. lol
Anyway, just b/c something is written somewhere in a book is not enough for me. Even though that book may be esteemed, I still like to filter long-time pedagogy through present-day success stories. There are a lot of "experts" on TTF. It's up to us as individuals to decide with whom we wish to hitch our wagon.
Good discussion, though - if we view it as such.
...Geezer
Oh! Yeah, I think that's what he meant. lol
Anyway, just b/c something is written somewhere in a book is not enough for me. Even though that book may be esteemed, I still like to filter long-time pedagogy through present-day success stories. There are a lot of "experts" on TTF. It's up to us as individuals to decide with whom we wish to hitch our wagon.
Good discussion, though - if we view it as such.
...Geezer
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: bonenick on Mar 23, 2017, 07:58AMWell...while you were brainstorming over the pooing concept...maybe we should change the practice room to a more convenient room....nevertheless, a long handslide could be a problem.
Could be it was a bad joke
I printed a copy of geezer's post.
I am sitting in the smallest room in my house.
His post is before me.
Shortly, it shall be behind me.
(apologies to Mr. Rossini. PS I like your cartoon music, awesome)
Could be it was a bad joke
I printed a copy of geezer's post.
I am sitting in the smallest room in my house.
His post is before me.
Shortly, it shall be behind me.
(apologies to Mr. Rossini. PS I like your cartoon music, awesome)
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
I am not opposed to breath support.
I am opposed to telling someone to "support." never saw that end well.
I am opposed to telling someone to "support." never saw that end well.
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 21, 2017, 07:08AMDo you see any narrowing of the width of those tiles (I like that) when ascending? Or does the aperture have one width through all ranges?
...Geezer
The angle changes. The speed and air direction follows suit.
I can't tell if the space changes much. Just the angle of the "tiles" over one another.
...Geezer
The angle changes. The speed and air direction follows suit.
I can't tell if the space changes much. Just the angle of the "tiles" over one another.
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
If you can take the time to sift through these video's, there's some good slowed down shots of high and low note playing.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wilktone+embouchure
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wilktone+embouchure
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
I was thinking of responding yesterday but I took a pain pill instead.
No, not because of the discussion. Kidney stones.
I'll share my thoughts now. I don't claim they are right, nor even that I'll still agree tomorrow. Sorry I'm going to ramble a little but I just might connect it to Geezer's beloved breath support.
High range is tricky (I used the word carefully rather than hard or difficult) because you have so little margin for error.
A basketball is 9 inches across, and the basket 18. How can you miss? Well, when you're really close, a large error in trajectory doesn't hurt. At three point range, even a tiny error is a fail, you have to be dead on. Left, right, high, low, too much arch, too flat an arch, anything makes you fail. Plus, the force required to throw the ball as far as a three point shot is large. So you must develop that strength, and practicing three point shots becomes tiring. Finally (running out of analogy here) to become consistent you must repeat that correct combination of aim and strength many times, but in the beginning you do it correctly only a tiny percentage of the time. It may take you a very long time to do it right even once. Oh, one more thing, you can throw it that far with pure arm strength, or by using body momentum and weight transfer properly you can throw it the same distance with a fraction of the effort.
I think there is some similarity to high range, in that you have to do everything right: upper and lower lip tension, lip overlap, direction of air stream, pressure of mouthpiece, tongue position, breath supply, stuff I haven't even thought of. The margin for error gets very small up there. And like the basketball shot, it make take you a long time to hit on the combination to do it right even once - for some people that may be never. Then you have to repeat it until you own it, without tiring out in the process. We know it can be done, some people have incredible mastery of it. The fact we call it incredible is testament to the challenge.
Hmm. Not sure the last pill has totally worn off. Little fuzzy thinking here.
Anyway, Geezer talks about breath "support," which is in fact the most common term, but I think maybe that's wrong. Breath "support" is a term that instantly brings our attention to the muscles that do something, but doesn't define what we need.
Here is my assertion: high range does not require any type of breath support. It requires a very precisely metered and very precisely steady flow of air. That's all.
But, that's a lot. For any given condition (the note, the dynamic, the lip tension) that air flow has to be exact. A little too much or too little and it doesn't work.
Given the right air flow, it doesn't matter if we got there with a boxer's punch proof abs or a relaxed conversational breath. But you do need a consistent approach for how to get there. I do have an idea for an approach but I'll save it, I've rambled too long already. I'm using the term flow exclusively; I think that's all there is. Pressure is all but nonexistent at these levels and temperature or humidity are just mental images, not reality.
No, not because of the discussion. Kidney stones.
I'll share my thoughts now. I don't claim they are right, nor even that I'll still agree tomorrow. Sorry I'm going to ramble a little but I just might connect it to Geezer's beloved breath support.
High range is tricky (I used the word carefully rather than hard or difficult) because you have so little margin for error.
A basketball is 9 inches across, and the basket 18. How can you miss? Well, when you're really close, a large error in trajectory doesn't hurt. At three point range, even a tiny error is a fail, you have to be dead on. Left, right, high, low, too much arch, too flat an arch, anything makes you fail. Plus, the force required to throw the ball as far as a three point shot is large. So you must develop that strength, and practicing three point shots becomes tiring. Finally (running out of analogy here) to become consistent you must repeat that correct combination of aim and strength many times, but in the beginning you do it correctly only a tiny percentage of the time. It may take you a very long time to do it right even once. Oh, one more thing, you can throw it that far with pure arm strength, or by using body momentum and weight transfer properly you can throw it the same distance with a fraction of the effort.
I think there is some similarity to high range, in that you have to do everything right: upper and lower lip tension, lip overlap, direction of air stream, pressure of mouthpiece, tongue position, breath supply, stuff I haven't even thought of. The margin for error gets very small up there. And like the basketball shot, it make take you a long time to hit on the combination to do it right even once - for some people that may be never. Then you have to repeat it until you own it, without tiring out in the process. We know it can be done, some people have incredible mastery of it. The fact we call it incredible is testament to the challenge.
Hmm. Not sure the last pill has totally worn off. Little fuzzy thinking here.
Anyway, Geezer talks about breath "support," which is in fact the most common term, but I think maybe that's wrong. Breath "support" is a term that instantly brings our attention to the muscles that do something, but doesn't define what we need.
Here is my assertion: high range does not require any type of breath support. It requires a very precisely metered and very precisely steady flow of air. That's all.
But, that's a lot. For any given condition (the note, the dynamic, the lip tension) that air flow has to be exact. A little too much or too little and it doesn't work.
Given the right air flow, it doesn't matter if we got there with a boxer's punch proof abs or a relaxed conversational breath. But you do need a consistent approach for how to get there. I do have an idea for an approach but I'll save it, I've rambled too long already. I'm using the term flow exclusively; I think that's all there is. Pressure is all but nonexistent at these levels and temperature or humidity are just mental images, not reality.
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
With the risk of becoming annoying, I will still maintain my initial statement:
Whatever the type of player, the soft playing of slurs and lips trills will often intuitively help them to find the needed placement and embouchure movements. They don't need to know all the theory behind. All these analysis can be rather helpful to the teachers.
My lead to embouchure is often sound. If it sounds good, nobody can argue with.
The only real application for all of these observation seems to be to help teachers make educated guesses of what causes a problem (where there is one) and how to relieve it. Still, there will be inavoidable (correct me if I am wrong) process of trials and errors.
Whatever the type of player, the soft playing of slurs and lips trills will often intuitively help them to find the needed placement and embouchure movements. They don't need to know all the theory behind. All these analysis can be rather helpful to the teachers.
My lead to embouchure is often sound. If it sounds good, nobody can argue with.
The only real application for all of these observation seems to be to help teachers make educated guesses of what causes a problem (where there is one) and how to relieve it. Still, there will be inavoidable (correct me if I am wrong) process of trials and errors.
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Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 24, 2017, 06:01AMI was thinking of responding yesterday but I took a pain pill instead.
No, not because of the discussion. Kidney stones.
I'll share my thoughts now. I don't claim they are right, nor even that I'll still agree tomorrow. Sorry I'm going to ramble a little but I just might connect it to Geezer's beloved breath support.
High range is tricky (I used the word carefully rather than hard or difficult) because you have so little margin for error.
A basketball is 9 inches across, and the basket 18. How can you miss? Well, when you're really close, a large error in trajectory doesn't hurt. At three point range, even a tiny error is a fail, you have to be dead on. Left, right, high, low, too much arch, too flat an arch, anything makes you fail. Plus, the force required to throw the ball as far as a three point shot is large. So you must develop that strength, and practicing three point shots becomes tiring. Finally (running out of analogy here) to become consistent you must repeat that correct combination of aim and strength many times, but in the beginning you do it correctly only a tiny percentage of the time. It may take you a very long time to do it right even once. Oh, one more thing, you can throw it that far with pure arm strength, or by using body momentum and weight transfer properly you can throw it the same distance with a fraction of the effort.
I think there is some similarity to high range, in that you have to do everything right: upper and lower lip tension, lip overlap, direction of air stream, pressure of mouthpiece, tongue position, breath supply, stuff I haven't even thought of. The margin for error gets very small up there. And like the basketball shot, it make take you a long time to hit on the combination to do it right even once - for some people that may be never. Then you have to repeat it until you own it, without tiring out in the process. We know it can be done, some people have incredible mastery of it. The fact we call it incredible is testament to the challenge.
Hmm. Not sure the last pill has totally worn off. Little fuzzy thinking here.
Anyway, Geezer talks about breath "support," which is in fact the most common term, but I think maybe that's wrong. Breath "support" is a term that instantly brings our attention to the muscles that do something, but doesn't define what we need.
Here is my assertion: high range does not require any type of breath support. It requires a very precisely metered and very precisely steady flow of air. That's all.
But, that's a lot. For any given condition (the note, the dynamic, the lip tension) that air flow has to be exact. A little too much or too little and it doesn't work.
Given the right air flow, it doesn't matter if we got there with a boxer's punch proof abs or a relaxed conversational breath. But you do need a consistent approach for how to get there. I do have an idea for an approach but I'll save it, I've rambled too long already. I'm using the term flow exclusively; I think that's all there is. Pressure is all but nonexistent at these levels and temperature or humidity are just mental images, not reality.
No breath support = no air.
No muscular effort = no work done.
But don't overdo either one.
Relaxed and tension-free effort = finesse. Unless you have re-invented yourself tim, the last vid (or maybe it was a pic) you posted (that I am aware of) showed you looking like an overly-coiled spring ready to snap.
Finesse = success.
Quote from: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 06:12AMWith the risk of becoming annoying, I will still maintain my initial statement:
Whatever the type of player, the soft playing of slurs and lip trills will often intuitively help them to find the needed placement and embouchure movements. They don't need to know all the theory behind. All these analysis can be rather helpful to the teachers.
My lead to embouchure is often sound. If it sounds good, nobody can argue with.
The only real application for all of these observation seems to be to help teachers make educated guesses of what causes a problem (where there is one) and how to relieve it. Still, there will be inavoidable (correct me if I am wrong) and process of trials and errors.
Probably THE best idea to live by, if a beginner can trill. Maybe just leave it as "the soft playing of slurs". We probably ought to add glisses into the party mix as well.
I also think there is a lot to be said for 2-octave scales as well as exercises that go up high and repeatedly ping on the very highest of notes within a modestly narrow range, then retreat back down.
...Geezer
No, not because of the discussion. Kidney stones.
I'll share my thoughts now. I don't claim they are right, nor even that I'll still agree tomorrow. Sorry I'm going to ramble a little but I just might connect it to Geezer's beloved breath support.
High range is tricky (I used the word carefully rather than hard or difficult) because you have so little margin for error.
A basketball is 9 inches across, and the basket 18. How can you miss? Well, when you're really close, a large error in trajectory doesn't hurt. At three point range, even a tiny error is a fail, you have to be dead on. Left, right, high, low, too much arch, too flat an arch, anything makes you fail. Plus, the force required to throw the ball as far as a three point shot is large. So you must develop that strength, and practicing three point shots becomes tiring. Finally (running out of analogy here) to become consistent you must repeat that correct combination of aim and strength many times, but in the beginning you do it correctly only a tiny percentage of the time. It may take you a very long time to do it right even once. Oh, one more thing, you can throw it that far with pure arm strength, or by using body momentum and weight transfer properly you can throw it the same distance with a fraction of the effort.
I think there is some similarity to high range, in that you have to do everything right: upper and lower lip tension, lip overlap, direction of air stream, pressure of mouthpiece, tongue position, breath supply, stuff I haven't even thought of. The margin for error gets very small up there. And like the basketball shot, it make take you a long time to hit on the combination to do it right even once - for some people that may be never. Then you have to repeat it until you own it, without tiring out in the process. We know it can be done, some people have incredible mastery of it. The fact we call it incredible is testament to the challenge.
Hmm. Not sure the last pill has totally worn off. Little fuzzy thinking here.
Anyway, Geezer talks about breath "support," which is in fact the most common term, but I think maybe that's wrong. Breath "support" is a term that instantly brings our attention to the muscles that do something, but doesn't define what we need.
Here is my assertion: high range does not require any type of breath support. It requires a very precisely metered and very precisely steady flow of air. That's all.
But, that's a lot. For any given condition (the note, the dynamic, the lip tension) that air flow has to be exact. A little too much or too little and it doesn't work.
Given the right air flow, it doesn't matter if we got there with a boxer's punch proof abs or a relaxed conversational breath. But you do need a consistent approach for how to get there. I do have an idea for an approach but I'll save it, I've rambled too long already. I'm using the term flow exclusively; I think that's all there is. Pressure is all but nonexistent at these levels and temperature or humidity are just mental images, not reality.
No breath support = no air.
No muscular effort = no work done.
But don't overdo either one.
Relaxed and tension-free effort = finesse. Unless you have re-invented yourself tim, the last vid (or maybe it was a pic) you posted (that I am aware of) showed you looking like an overly-coiled spring ready to snap.
Finesse = success.
Quote from: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 06:12AMWith the risk of becoming annoying, I will still maintain my initial statement:
Whatever the type of player, the soft playing of slurs and lip trills will often intuitively help them to find the needed placement and embouchure movements. They don't need to know all the theory behind. All these analysis can be rather helpful to the teachers.
My lead to embouchure is often sound. If it sounds good, nobody can argue with.
The only real application for all of these observation seems to be to help teachers make educated guesses of what causes a problem (where there is one) and how to relieve it. Still, there will be inavoidable (correct me if I am wrong) and process of trials and errors.
Probably THE best idea to live by, if a beginner can trill. Maybe just leave it as "the soft playing of slurs". We probably ought to add glisses into the party mix as well.
I also think there is a lot to be said for 2-octave scales as well as exercises that go up high and repeatedly ping on the very highest of notes within a modestly narrow range, then retreat back down.
...Geezer
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QuoteProbably THE best idea to live by, if a beginner can trill. Maybe just leave it as "the soft playing of slurs". We probably ought to add glisses into the party mix as well.
Exactly. Didn't think of glisses, but that's a good idea. As for slurred scales and intervales I thought that it was included in slur soft playing.
It is tonguing and "hitting" high notes, accompanied with a fair amount of adrenalin that often messes everthing up. We all have been probably there
Exactly. Didn't think of glisses, but that's a good idea. As for slurred scales and intervales I thought that it was included in slur soft playing.
It is tonguing and "hitting" high notes, accompanied with a fair amount of adrenalin that often messes everthing up. We all have been probably there
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Quote from: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 06:38AMExactly. Didn't think of glisses, but that's a good idea. As for slurred scales and intervales I thought that it was included in slur soft playing.
It is tonguing and "hitting" high notes, accompanied with a fair amount of adrenalin that often messes everthing up. We all have been probably there
Slurred scales? How about across-the-grain slurring? Start on say, a tuning Bb and rapidly slur across-the-grain to a high Bb in 3rd and back, repeatedly. Then start on D in first and do the same thing up to high C in 3rd and back, repeatedly. Then go up to F in 1st, etc. Does that have merit?
I think you've raised a good point that "hitting" high notes might be counter-productive. That's why I prefer the term "pinging".
...Geezer
It is tonguing and "hitting" high notes, accompanied with a fair amount of adrenalin that often messes everthing up. We all have been probably there
Slurred scales? How about across-the-grain slurring? Start on say, a tuning Bb and rapidly slur across-the-grain to a high Bb in 3rd and back, repeatedly. Then start on D in first and do the same thing up to high C in 3rd and back, repeatedly. Then go up to F in 1st, etc. Does that have merit?
I think you've raised a good point that "hitting" high notes might be counter-productive. That's why I prefer the term "pinging".
...Geezer
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Being a non-Native English speaker I am not sure what across-the-grain slurring must mean. Sound something like partials slurring. Anyway, it is probably good, I think that we are on the roughly same vibe regarding this question.
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Quote from: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 06:47AMBeing a non-Native English speaker I am not sure what across-the-grain slurring must mean. Sound something like partials slurring. Anyway, it is probably good, I think that we are on the roughly same vibe regarding this question.
Oh. Okay. "Across-the-grain" slurring means slurring up from a given note while moving the slide out , or slurring down from a given note while moving the slide in. It's kinda the opposite of a gliss?
...Geezer
Oh. Okay. "Across-the-grain" slurring means slurring up from a given note while moving the slide out , or slurring down from a given note while moving the slide in. It's kinda the opposite of a gliss?
...Geezer
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I've seen that done by friends-trombonists, but so far I haven't had a go at it. I'll try to see how it goes
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Quote from: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 06:12AMWith the risk of becoming annoying, I will still maintain my initial statement:
Whatever the type of player, the soft playing of slurs and lips trills will often intuitively help them to find the needed placement and embouchure movements. They don't need to know all the theory behind. All these analysis can be rather helpful to the teachers.
I don't think you are annoying; I think you are correct.
But I also think your approach is most suited to one type of player, the type that tends to learn "inner tennis" style, and that approach is very frustrating to some other types of player.
Whatever the type of player, the soft playing of slurs and lips trills will often intuitively help them to find the needed placement and embouchure movements. They don't need to know all the theory behind. All these analysis can be rather helpful to the teachers.
I don't think you are annoying; I think you are correct.
But I also think your approach is most suited to one type of player, the type that tends to learn "inner tennis" style, and that approach is very frustrating to some other types of player.
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Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 06:30AMNo breath support = no air.
No muscular effort = no work done.
But don't overdo either one.
...Geezer
Ah Geezer, now I have no clue what you are advocating.
You've been hammering breath support, breath support, breath support, in post after post, and now you say "no big deal, just don't overdo."
How is the OP supposed to interpret your advice?
QuoteRelaxed and tension-free effort = finesse. Unless you have re-invented yourself tim, the last vid (or maybe it was a pic) you posted (that I am aware of) showed you looking like an overly-coiled spring ready to snap
Dang, geezer! Obviously I'll have to do another video!
Wait, try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brgq7fjLAnY
(Very bad form, was roundly criticized by the pros on that other forum)
No muscular effort = no work done.
But don't overdo either one.
...Geezer
Ah Geezer, now I have no clue what you are advocating.
You've been hammering breath support, breath support, breath support, in post after post, and now you say "no big deal, just don't overdo."
How is the OP supposed to interpret your advice?
QuoteRelaxed and tension-free effort = finesse. Unless you have re-invented yourself tim, the last vid (or maybe it was a pic) you posted (that I am aware of) showed you looking like an overly-coiled spring ready to snap
Dang, geezer! Obviously I'll have to do another video!
Wait, try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brgq7fjLAnY
(Very bad form, was roundly criticized by the pros on that other forum)
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Quote from: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 06:56AMI've seen that done by friends-trombonists, but so far I haven't had a go at it. I'll try to see how it goes
I'm not positive, but I think this gentleman is doing "cross-grain-slurs" at about mile marker 3:06.
The Way We Were
...Geezer
I'm not positive, but I think this gentleman is doing "cross-grain-slurs" at about mile marker 3:06.
The Way We Were
...Geezer
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Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 07:04AMI'm not positive, but I think this gentleman is doing "cross-grain-slurs" at about mile marker 3:06.
The Way We Were
...Geezer
FWIW, Don Lucas commented on cross-grain or natural (vs legato tongued) slurs at ATW this month.
He said if you advocate all tongued or all natural slurs you are wrong. Let the music determine what is needed. Made sense to me, I hadn't thought of it that way.
The Way We Were
...Geezer
FWIW, Don Lucas commented on cross-grain or natural (vs legato tongued) slurs at ATW this month.
He said if you advocate all tongued or all natural slurs you are wrong. Let the music determine what is needed. Made sense to me, I hadn't thought of it that way.
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Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 24, 2017, 07:04AMAh Geezer, now I have no clue what you are advocating.
You've been hammering breath support, breath support, breath support, in post after post, and now you say "no big deal, just don't overdo."
How is the OP supposed to interpret your advice?
Dang, geezer! Obviously I'll have to do another video!
Wait, try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brgq7fjLAnY
(Very bad form, was roundly criticized by the pros on that other forum)
Gots to keep 'em off balance! Make them think!
Support from a relaxed mental and physical state. Be one with the horn, Grasshoppah!
No, your form looks at least relaxed in that vid. It's the other ones on your channel where you are torturing a trombone to death. Do you have a tendency to bend the cross-braces on your left-hand grips? And OBTW: that stiff-arm pumping slide technique is the berries! How long did it take you to "master" that?
OBTW: I got a big chuckle out of your "smallest room of the house" retort. I don't know what you were doing in there, but note to self: don't send tim any pics of self.
...Geezer
You've been hammering breath support, breath support, breath support, in post after post, and now you say "no big deal, just don't overdo."
How is the OP supposed to interpret your advice?
Dang, geezer! Obviously I'll have to do another video!
Wait, try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brgq7fjLAnY
(Very bad form, was roundly criticized by the pros on that other forum)
Gots to keep 'em off balance! Make them think!
Support from a relaxed mental and physical state. Be one with the horn, Grasshoppah!
No, your form looks at least relaxed in that vid. It's the other ones on your channel where you are torturing a trombone to death. Do you have a tendency to bend the cross-braces on your left-hand grips? And OBTW: that stiff-arm pumping slide technique is the berries! How long did it take you to "master" that?
OBTW: I got a big chuckle out of your "smallest room of the house" retort. I don't know what you were doing in there, but note to self: don't send tim any pics of self.
...Geezer
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Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 24, 2017, 07:07AMFWIW, Don Lucas commented on cross-grain or natural (vs legato tongued) slurs at ATW this month.
He said if you advocate all tongued or all natural slurs you are wrong. Let the music determine what is needed. Made sense to me, I hadn't thought of it that way.
Well, I certainly think Randy "let the music determine what is needed". Anyway, that vid wasn't supposed to get corrupted to be about musicality, it was intended to show an "across-the-grain" technique that could possibly be used as an exercise in range-building. I guess that went past you?
...Geezer
He said if you advocate all tongued or all natural slurs you are wrong. Let the music determine what is needed. Made sense to me, I hadn't thought of it that way.
Well, I certainly think Randy "let the music determine what is needed". Anyway, that vid wasn't supposed to get corrupted to be about musicality, it was intended to show an "across-the-grain" technique that could possibly be used as an exercise in range-building. I guess that went past you?
...Geezer
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Playing across the grain is bread and butter in my reality, (?) especially when combined with long shifts, it makes playing melodies in Tbn unfriendly keys more doable and musical.
Just sharing that, not needing any validation..
Just sharing that, not needing any validation..
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Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 24, 2017, 08:21AMPlaying across the grain is bread and butter in my reality, (?) especially when combined with long shifts, it makes playing melodies in Tbn unfriendly keys more doable and musical.
Just sharing that, not needing any validation..
When playing high-range stuff, there are trombone-unfriendly keys? Is this a new concept?
...Geezer
Just sharing that, not needing any validation..
When playing high-range stuff, there are trombone-unfriendly keys? Is this a new concept?
...Geezer
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Quote from: timothy42b on Mar 24, 2017, 07:04AMAh Geezer, now I have no clue what you are advocating.
You've been hammering breath support, breath support, breath support, in post after post, and now you say "no big deal, just don't overdo."
How is the OP supposed to interpret your advice?
Dang, geezer! Obviously I'll have to do another video!
Wait, try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brgq7fjLAnY
(Very bad form, was roundly criticized by the pros on that other forum)
I ran across this guy. Forget for just one minute that he is NOT a trombone player.
PMJ: Sledgehammer
Just watching the first 20 seconds of it ought to be enough.
See how relaxed and in-the-groove the lead man is? Now let's all compare how we play with how that performer plays. Is there any difference? I'm starting to get the idea that relaxation is beneficial but I'm also wondering why we usually don't see trombone players nearly as relaxed. Is it the horn? Is it a lack of proper pedagogy? Is it just not important to anyone? Or is it that only the very best players among us get it?
What does this have to do with learning how to play in the high range? Everything?????
...Geezer
You've been hammering breath support, breath support, breath support, in post after post, and now you say "no big deal, just don't overdo."
How is the OP supposed to interpret your advice?
Dang, geezer! Obviously I'll have to do another video!
Wait, try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brgq7fjLAnY
(Very bad form, was roundly criticized by the pros on that other forum)
I ran across this guy. Forget for just one minute that he is NOT a trombone player.
PMJ: Sledgehammer
Just watching the first 20 seconds of it ought to be enough.
See how relaxed and in-the-groove the lead man is? Now let's all compare how we play with how that performer plays. Is there any difference? I'm starting to get the idea that relaxation is beneficial but I'm also wondering why we usually don't see trombone players nearly as relaxed. Is it the horn? Is it a lack of proper pedagogy? Is it just not important to anyone? Or is it that only the very best players among us get it?
What does this have to do with learning how to play in the high range? Everything?????
...Geezer
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Sometimes you gotta post a video to prove your point, Tim.
I liked your pBone mini video. Videos are very telling to back up what any poster here is talking about.
I liked your pBone mini video. Videos are very telling to back up what any poster here is talking about.
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Something I'd like to get off my chest about my videos.
Geezer puts a lot of effort into making his artistic, and I appreciate the work and the talent.
But my approach is different. They're all done live, one take, no prep - they're an instant snapshot of where I was at that moment, most just a quick experiment. Some of them suck farts out of dead seagulls.
I leave them up because I consider us friends here, and I don't worry because I don't get that many hits outside of us. Maybe that's not a great idea. If I were chumming for gigs I'd be culling them, and spending some time trying to do a good one.
Geezer puts a lot of effort into making his artistic, and I appreciate the work and the talent.
But my approach is different. They're all done live, one take, no prep - they're an instant snapshot of where I was at that moment, most just a quick experiment. Some of them suck farts out of dead seagulls.
I leave them up because I consider us friends here, and I don't worry because I don't get that many hits outside of us. Maybe that's not a great idea. If I were chumming for gigs I'd be culling them, and spending some time trying to do a good one.
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Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 08:26AMWhen playing high-range stuff, there are trombone-unfriendly keys? Is this a new concept?
...Geezer
I forgot to include playing in the lower range, where fretting and economical slide positions come into their own. "Tenderly" in Eb being a good example, unless you want to play it in the higher octave, hitting those High Notes.
...Geezer
I forgot to include playing in the lower range, where fretting and economical slide positions come into their own. "Tenderly" in Eb being a good example, unless you want to play it in the higher octave, hitting those High Notes.
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Quote from: Pre59 on Mar 24, 2017, 01:45PMI forgot to include playing in the lower range, where fretting and economical slide positions come into their own. "Tenderly" in Eb being a good example, unless you want to play it in the higher octave, hitting those High Notes.
I can just slur them to make things easier...
I can just slur them to make things easier...
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All snit-fits aside; to breath support or not to breath support is a key question.
I will be taking it up with my instructor, as all amateurs ought to do, the OP included. And I'll stick with my instructor's information on it, as all amateurs and the OP ought to do.
If everyone had a good instructor for this topic and other topics, there really should be no instruction asked for on this Forum for issues regarding technique. Inquiries on this forum really should be reduced to more mundane things like mouthpiece measurements, YouTube trombone players, chit-chat, etc.
It's a very quiet morning. Just thought I would kick the hornet's nest.
...Geezer
I will be taking it up with my instructor, as all amateurs ought to do, the OP included. And I'll stick with my instructor's information on it, as all amateurs and the OP ought to do.
If everyone had a good instructor for this topic and other topics, there really should be no instruction asked for on this Forum for issues regarding technique. Inquiries on this forum really should be reduced to more mundane things like mouthpiece measurements, YouTube trombone players, chit-chat, etc.
It's a very quiet morning. Just thought I would kick the hornet's nest.
...Geezer
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Quote from: Geezerhorn on Mar 25, 2017, 07:47AMAll snit-fits aside; to breath support or not to breath support is a key question.
I will be taking it up with my instructor
...Geezer
Yes. Breath support. What's the alternative?
The trombone isn't a buzz amplifying megaphone.
I will be taking it up with my instructor
...Geezer
Yes. Breath support. What's the alternative?
The trombone isn't a buzz amplifying megaphone.
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Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 25, 2017, 08:03AM
Yes. Breath support. What's the alternative?
The trombone isn't a buzz amplifying megaphone.
Well, the argument seems to be that it is not necessary. So I guess according to some, we aren't supposed to breath when playing b/c when we do - the diaphragm is engaged and that is the very essence of "breath support". As far as I am concerned, it's a question of degree; a lot vs a little.
...Geezer, the rock-bottom rank beginner who doesn't play nearly enough notes
Yes. Breath support. What's the alternative?
The trombone isn't a buzz amplifying megaphone.
Well, the argument seems to be that it is not necessary. So I guess according to some, we aren't supposed to breath when playing b/c when we do - the diaphragm is engaged and that is the very essence of "breath support". As far as I am concerned, it's a question of degree; a lot vs a little.
...Geezer, the rock-bottom rank beginner who doesn't play nearly enough notes
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I guess if you're a face player who uses a mic you can do the trombone megaphone thing. Plenty of pros have made a living doing that ....
We already had this argument about type one vs type two players. One uses air and the horn to form the embouchure. The other muscles the embouchure out and puts the resistance at their face. Probably requires less air too.
If any amateurs are seriously looking for advice on how to play anything that isn't stylized mic playing ... this is a pretty bogus place to be pulling advice from.
We already had this argument about type one vs type two players. One uses air and the horn to form the embouchure. The other muscles the embouchure out and puts the resistance at their face. Probably requires less air too.
If any amateurs are seriously looking for advice on how to play anything that isn't stylized mic playing ... this is a pretty bogus place to be pulling advice from.
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Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 25, 2017, 08:39AMI guess if you're a face player who uses a mic you can do the trombone megaphone thing. Plenty of pros have made a living doing that ....
We already had this argument about type one vs type two players. One uses air and the horn to form the embouchure. The other muscles the embouchure out and puts the resistance at their face. Probably requires less air too.
If any amateurs are seriously looking for advice on how to play anything that isn't stylized mic playing ... this is a pretty bogus place to be pulling advice from.
Agreed. As I've stated and as others are just coming to recognize, this forum is social media, not a series of white papers. Maybe it used to be when the Internet was in diapers, but not now - since superficiality in everyday life has come to vogue.
...Geezer, the rock-bottom rank beginner who doesn't play nearly enough notes
We already had this argument about type one vs type two players. One uses air and the horn to form the embouchure. The other muscles the embouchure out and puts the resistance at their face. Probably requires less air too.
If any amateurs are seriously looking for advice on how to play anything that isn't stylized mic playing ... this is a pretty bogus place to be pulling advice from.
Agreed. As I've stated and as others are just coming to recognize, this forum is social media, not a series of white papers. Maybe it used to be when the Internet was in diapers, but not now - since superficiality in everyday life has come to vogue.
...Geezer, the rock-bottom rank beginner who doesn't play nearly enough notes
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Aw geezer, don't put yourself down in your signature.
There's still a lot of good info being put out here, despite my best efforts. It's a great platform to see who is doing what. Like buzzing or not.
Debating whether or not to support with lots of air is pretty bogus though....
There's still a lot of good info being put out here, despite my best efforts. It's a great platform to see who is doing what. Like buzzing or not.
Debating whether or not to support with lots of air is pretty bogus though....
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Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Mar 25, 2017, 09:02AMAw geezer, don't put yourself down in your signature.
There's still a lot of good info being put out here, despite my best efforts. It's a great platform to see who is doing what. Like buzzing or not.
Debating whether or not to support with lots of air is pretty bogus though....
Lol. I do that to flip off...
There is. It makes for interesting reading when there is absolutely NOTHING else of interest.
...Geezer, with the million-dollar tone - using the Mies Van Der Rohe principle
There's still a lot of good info being put out here, despite my best efforts. It's a great platform to see who is doing what. Like buzzing or not.
Debating whether or not to support with lots of air is pretty bogus though....
Lol. I do that to flip off...
There is. It makes for interesting reading when there is absolutely NOTHING else of interest.
...Geezer, with the million-dollar tone - using the Mies Van Der Rohe principle
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Quote from: chris1030 on Mar 14, 2017, 06:25AMI'll be performing a solo in a few months where I have to hit a C one octave above middle C ( ) a few times, sometimes jumping up and down the octave in one beat ( -> ) I can hit the note, but not consistently and not easily. It sounds like I'm struggling and takes a few seconds before I can sustain it. Any tips on how to get the note consistently?
There seem to be three basic ways to get higher:
1 More air
2 Smaller aperture
3 tongue position
You can explore these on easy partials without busting your chops. Try F to Bb in the staff. Starting on F, add more air while trying to keep all else constant. You may find you can get back and forth controlling air alone.
Similarly, try getting from the F to the Bb by keeping all constant except contract your aperture.
And finally, play the F and then raise the tongue from the back toward the front, something like "ah" to "ee" or "i". You may find the note pops up.
You can do this in higher and higher partials and explore how they work. "Hard" high notes seem to be gotten to mostly by the "more air" approach. The aperture and especially the tongue seem to more dramatically tune the face for higher vibration. "easy" high notes exist. It's a matter of doing the exploration.
There seem to be three basic ways to get higher:
1 More air
2 Smaller aperture
3 tongue position
You can explore these on easy partials without busting your chops. Try F to Bb in the staff. Starting on F, add more air while trying to keep all else constant. You may find you can get back and forth controlling air alone.
Similarly, try getting from the F to the Bb by keeping all constant except contract your aperture.
And finally, play the F and then raise the tongue from the back toward the front, something like "ah" to "ee" or "i". You may find the note pops up.
You can do this in higher and higher partials and explore how they work. "Hard" high notes seem to be gotten to mostly by the "more air" approach. The aperture and especially the tongue seem to more dramatically tune the face for higher vibration. "easy" high notes exist. It's a matter of doing the exploration.