François Riedlocker trombone

ttf_heinz gries · Post by **ttf_heinz gries** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:22 pm

can someone explain me, what function has the second tube, beside the bell section?
it seems to run into nothing.

http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0130323

ttf_HowardW · Post by **ttf_HowardW** » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:55 pm

Quote from: heinz gries on Jun 12, 2016, 11:22PMcan someone explain me, what function has the second tube, beside the bell section?
it seems to run into nothing.
http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0130323
It looks like they had some extra pieces of another instrument lying around in the museum and tried to use them to make a complete instrument. The bell brace is definitely spurious, and the bell ferrules don't match at all. It looks like the slide is complete, but the bell section is a bastard.

Howard

ttf_matthijs · Post by **ttf_matthijs** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:31 am

Could it be an extra tube for transposing the instrument? Please tell me if I'm not right, but didn't Praetorius also picture some extra tubes for this? Even though that's 200 years earlier, the instrument design did not change that much..

Anyway, Howard's explanation seems the most logic. Just an idea!

ttf_thetuningslide · Post by **ttf_thetuningslide** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:34 am

Expensive pencil holder?

ttf_harrison.t.reed · Post by **ttf_harrison.t.reed** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:18 am

Counterweight.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:41 am

Flag staff holder?

ttf_sonicsilver · Post by **ttf_sonicsilver** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:08 am

Hotdog compartment.

ttf_SBMaestro · Post by **ttf_SBMaestro** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:42 am

I agree with the idea of it being an extension tube for transposition. It appears that it can be removed and added on just behind the loop of tubing. It likely lowers the pitch another 1/2 step or whole step (it's difficult to tell). Its location in the photo is probably for storage purposes, so you don't lose it.

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:53 am

Better views of a similar system and a much more interesting instrument found here -

http://collectionsdumusee.philharmoniedeparis.fr/doc/MUSEE/0160506/trombone-a-coulisse-basse

ttf_bonearzt · Post by **ttf_bonearzt** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:00 am

I'd lean more toward counterweight, or cigar holder.
Doesn't look like it matches up with any other tubing to use as a tuning extension.

Actually looking closer at the first example, it looks to be part of the tuning mechanism, just not directly in the air stream, just an extension to keep alignment in check as you adjust the length.
If you look closely at the bell end of the loop, it looks to be separated just a touch.

What key is it? Interesting double slide in Byron's example!

Eric

P.S. THIS is what discussions should be like ALL the time!! MAYBE excepting the Chit-Chat section.....

ttf_oslide · Post by **ttf_oslide** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:46 am

I also believe that the loop is an extension that can be taken out.

Take the slide away. Now you can pull the loop off which is inserted in the neck pipe as well as the strange 'cigar holder'. Put the slide back - different tuning.

If - in the pictured state - the loop was not inserted/fixed in this upper pipe the whole construction would not be stable enough.

I'm not sure though why this upper tube needs to be so long.

ttf_oslide · Post by **ttf_oslide** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:47 pm

On second thoughts it seems to me that the neckpipe is too wide to be just a simple tube. It's probably a slide that can be used for fine-tuning. The 'cigar holder' too is a slide, but not part of the sounding tube. It needs to be so long in order to stabilize the system mechanically when it is extended.

ttf_oslide · Post by **ttf_oslide** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:18 pm

In contrast to the instrument mentioned by MrPillow, this one doesn't even have a 'normal' bell brace. With only a loop made out of thinwalled tube, stability may have been a concern. The thin brace near the bell crook looks a bit like an afterthought.

ttf_heinz gries · Post by **ttf_heinz gries** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:58 pm

Perhabs in this way

http://i.imgur.com/DwR4ciq.jpg

ttf_robcat2075 · Post by **ttf_robcat2075** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:26 pm

Telescopic gun sight.

ttf_bonearzt · Post by **ttf_bonearzt** » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:54 pm

Quote from: heinz gries on Jun 13, 2016, 01:58PMPerhabs in this way

http://i.imgur.com/DwR4ciq.jpg

Possibly, but there doesn't seem a way to secure the tube when inserted between the slide & bell, making it pretty unstable.

My vote is still as a stabilizing mechanism for the tuning extension. See my observation above.

Eric

ttf_heinz gries · Post by **ttf_heinz gries** » Tue Jun 14, 2016 12:59 am

Or maybe this way?

http://i.imgur.com/Hs9AXTQ.jpg

ttf_MrPillow · Post by **ttf_MrPillow** » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:57 am

By happenstance I came across the answer to all of our speculation. This extra tubing is traditionally part of the French style instrument known as the "trombone a pavillon avant ou arriere," or "trombone with foreward or rearward bell." See Bruno Kampmann's article in Larigot: Bulletin de l'Association des Collectionneurs d'Instruments a Vent No. 25, December 1999.

ttf_HowardW · Post by **ttf_HowardW** » Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:51 am

Quote from: MrPillow on Oct 26, 2016, 09:57AMBy happenstance I came across the answer to all of our speculation. This extra tubing is traditionally part of the French style instrument known as the "trombone a pavillon avant ou arriere," or "trombone with foreward and rearward bell." See Bruno Kampmann's article in Larigot: Bulletin de l'Association des Collectionneurs d'Instruments a Vent No. 25, December 1999. Good catch!
Howard

ttf_wkimball · Post by **ttf_wkimball** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:47 pm

Here are several rearward bells in iconography--http://hubpages.com/entertainment/Backward-Bones-Rear-Facing-Trombones-Throughout-History

ttf_oslide · Post by **ttf_oslide** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:37 pm

Great you found this. Thanks!

ttf_oslide · Post by **ttf_oslide** » Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:37 pm

Great you found this. Thanks!