joining the "olds" crowd

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:50 am

Wife came through for another Birthday present. Unless something unforeseen happens, I'm going to be joining the "Olds" crowd. won a ebay auction for a LA Olds Super"

Quote111xx - Circa 1938

7" Bell

Dual bore .495/.510

Fluted Inner Slides

Friction Fit

Offered here is a great playing FE Olds Super Trombone made in Los Angeles CA.

There is some finish wear and minor dents through-out the instrument - overall it is in good condition for its age and being a used instrument. The inner slide plating has no wear through - the slide action is nice. The tuning slide moves freely and the water key works fine. This horn has a excellent warm tone and can brighten up when needed - this is a fantastic horn for Big Band or Dixie performance. Very flexible through the partials with good intonation through its range. The original coffin style case is included and is in decent usable condition. There is no mouthpiece.
my pictures will be added to my gallery in the near future.

ttf_John Beers Jr. · Post by **ttf_John Beers Jr.** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:11 am

Welcome Allen- I'm a probationary member of the Olds crowd myself (I own one, but have only played it for like 20 minutes before bringing it to get dedentified/aligned/etc).

Hopefully I'll have some pics and further insight on the thing in a week or so.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:26 am

Bout time you broke down and bought an LA Olds.

Congrats!

T.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:29 am

Well, I joined the Olds crowd in 1964 when I got an Ambassador with F (LA, used). I became a confirmed member later when I added my 1925 TIS ML in about 1965. The 1925 really wasn't used much until I had it reconditioned in 1984. The Ambassador was replaced by a Conn 79H.

Olds was a great instrument in their day. Too bad they got eclipsed by the more popular brands.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:44 am

Quote from: tsmart on Jan 26, 2011, 10:26AMBout time you broke down and bought an LA Olds.

Congrats!

T.

finally found one you didn't out bid me on.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:52 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 26, 2011, 10:29AMOlds was a great instrument in their day. Too bad they got eclipsed by the more popular brands.Vintage Olds are still great instruments today. I'm kinda glad they have become eclipsed by some "popular" stuff, it gives me more opportunities to buy more.

Doug Elliott played my '42 Super (7 inch bell), and he seemed to really dig it.

Quote from: sly fox on Jan 26, 2011, 10:44AMfinally found one you didn't out bid me on.

You're just lucky I was broke, and wasn't looking. LOL !

T.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:51 am

Troy's is a really nice, smooth playing horn. I joined the club the day I started playing - my first horn was a 1950's Recording and I still have it. I think I'll take it on a gig sometime.

ttf_Elkhart 88H · Post by **ttf_Elkhart 88H** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:23 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 26, 2011, 10:29AMWell, I joined the Olds crowd in 1964 when I got an Ambassador with F (LA, used). I became a confirmed member later when I added my 1925 TIS ML in about 1965. The 1925 really wasn't used much until I had it reconditioned in 1984. The Ambassador was replaced by a Conn 79H.

Olds was a great instrument in their day. Too bad they got eclipsed by the more popular brands.

You've been an Olds fan slightly longer than I have, Bruce. The horn I started playing on in 1967 was a raw brass Olds Standard with the .495/.510 LM dual bore, slide tuning and a 7-1/2" bell. It was a pro horn and it played like one. It wasn't until many years later that I appreciated how much better it was than the shiny new Conn Directors, Holton Collegiates and King Clevelands that the other fourth-graders had.

I scored another Standard on eBay many years later for $44, identical to my first horn except for bell size (7") and condition (quite a bit rougher). It, too, is an amazing horn.

ttf_tbone62 · Post by **ttf_tbone62** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:56 pm

Wonder how many of us there are? I sure enjoy L.A. Super when I play it. Sly, I'm looking forward to seeing pictures when it arrives.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:05 pm

I was just wondering, which has a darker sound? The Recording or the Super? I think there are differences in the way their bells are made but I'm not sure what the differences are. Would someone please enlighten me?

Don't worry Troy and sly fox. I'm not joining in the hunt. I've already spent waaaayyy more money on trombones than I ever dreamed I would.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:23 pm

Recording. You could look at the Super and the Recording sort of like a 2B and a 3B, but less difference between them.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:40 pm

Thanks, Doug.

ttf_octavposaune · Post by **ttf_octavposaune** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:32 pm

Hi Doug,

I thought the Olds Studio is like a 2B. Very Hot, punchy sounding horns.

Big bell (8.5" red brass) recordings with the F attachment are pretty dark for a small bore.

It is all semantics.

Enjoy your vintage Olds!

Benn

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:42 pm

Maybe it can be hot and punchy but I was playing it in a hotel room. I was surprised at how mellow and smooth it was. I guess the same thing might be said of a 2B, played in a hotel room...

All the Recordings I've played have been straight horns, no F attachment.

ttf_octavposaune · Post by **ttf_octavposaune** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:49 pm

Ah,

But Recording models did come with F attachments!! I have seen 2 in my shop. A cherry all red brass LA and a later Fullerton with a ripped valve port that I had to patch for a broke school.

Slides were the same as regular recordings but they had an interesting dog leg bend to accomodate the 8.5" bell and F rotor.

Studios, Supers, Recordings, Operas. All interesting instruments, not for everyone.

Benn

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:49 pm

QuoteDual bore .495/.510I'd be surprised if that's correct; S-15 Supers are usually .485"/.500".

I've got one from about the same time; rescued it from a junk/antique store in Victorville, CA. Beat half to death but still plays.

ttf_LizM · Post by **ttf_LizM** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:08 pm

Quote from: Elkhart 88H on Jan 26, 2011, 04:23PMYou've been an Olds fan slightly longer than I have, Bruce. The horn I started playing on in 1967 was a raw brass Olds Standard with the .495/.510 LM dual bore, slide tuning and a 7-1/2" bell. It was a pro horn and it played like one. It wasn't until many years later that I appreciated how much better it was than the shiny new Conn Directors, Holton Collegiates and King Clevelands that the other fourth-graders had.

I scored another Standard on eBay many years later for $44, identical to my first horn except for bell size (7") and condition (quite a bit rougher). It, too, is an amazing horn.

Robb Stewart has an Olds 'LM' listed on his used list....I've been wondering what in the world it was.

http://robbstewart.com/ForSaleLists/ForSaleList.html

ttf_Edward_Solomon · Post by **ttf_Edward_Solomon** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:10 am

I picked up a 1915 Olds Standard recently. It's quite simply breathtaking. I've never come across a slide so good on a trombone so old. The tolerances are such that it will only work well with Slide-O-Mix. Just about every other vintage trombone I own uses slide cream, but this is truly in a class of its own.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:35 am

Quote from: octavposaune on Jan 26, 2011, 09:49PMBut Recording models did come with F attachments!!
I think Doug meant he had never played a Recording with an F attachment, not that they didn't exist.

I have one (w/F), that I bought from a forum member from Australia.

Richard, the Recording does play darker and more mello (IMHO).

T.

ttf_Euphanasia · Post by **ttf_Euphanasia** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:57 am

Quote from: LizM on Jan 26, 2011, 11:08PMRobb Stewart has an Olds 'LM' listed on his used list....I've been wondering what in the world it was.

http://robbstewart.com/ForSaleLists/ForSaleList.html

Depends on how old it is. Early (Pre 1920) L/M horns were .485/.500. I've had a few that were marked L/M and were .490/.505. More recent ones were .495/.510. The one he listed is from 1924, so I'd wager it's .490/.505. Aside from the bore, it's a TIS horn and he claims it has a "large bell" which may indicate an LM8 (8" bell). In 1924, most had the bear engraved on the bell flare. Seems like a pretty good price too.

ttf_Sporto · Post by **ttf_Sporto** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:20 am

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Jan 27, 2011, 01:10AMI picked up a 1915 Olds Standard recently. It's quite simply breathtaking. I've never come across a slide so good on a trombone so old. The tolerances are such that it will only work well with Slide-O-Mix. Just about every other vintage trombone I own uses slide cream, but this is truly in a class of its own.

yeah, incredibly well made slides, and not just for a 90 yr. old horn, for any horn.. my 1921 TIS is smooth as can be and very close tolerance.
(John Sandhagen did the slide set-up)

ttf_octavposaune · Post by **ttf_octavposaune** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:22 pm

Euphanasia,

You had several LM7's???? I miss my cherry LM7. It was .495-.515", had an original Olds bakelight mouthpiece and the original extremely lightweight LA Olds mouthpiece, which I still have and use on altos. It was silver with gold wash in the bell.

I would love to have the same bore LM8. Too many things to want...

My Olds symphony had a spectactular slide until the rod got stuck in it and split the original slide tube!! That was 10 years ago, now it is a wall decoration in my shop.

Benn

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:48 pm

ha ha !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: sly fox on Jan 26, 2011, 10:44AMfinally found one you didn't out bid me on.

ttf_dj kennedy · Post by **ttf_dj kennedy** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:52 pm

so many cool olds models
nobody else did a hammered bell like the military
then you got radio and standard ones w bears on them
tis bass bones
studios studios studios versions
specials -i really like specials
the hawiaan [surfer]
variations on supers
FEATHERWEIGHT recording

ttf_artyart · Post by **ttf_artyart** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:32 am

I picked up and Olds "M" #5xxx (1924-ish?) normal tuning,bear on the 6.5" bell, well used, for 30 bucks at a yard sale, with some cleaning it plays great, huge sound for a peashooter, and even though the slide is VERY worn it works well (at some point I'll remove the dents, and re-tube it if I can get the right inners) It is a nice complement to my 1950's "special" that I rebuilt and use now and then (smaller bore , bigger bell) built like a tank...that one was 40 bucks....

They both have paid for themselves a few times over already.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:24 am

Quote from: dj kennedy on Jan 27, 2011, 08:52PM the hawiaan [surfer]
I have one of them. Maybe Richard or Drew needs one, to play in Hawaii.

Need to send it to John S. first, to get it ready to sell (yes, sadly) I might just part with it (need some funds, to re-tube my 4).

Seen a overhauled one go for $2K on the bay.

T.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:07 am

Hahaha... When I saw dj's reference to a Hawaiian surfer, the very first thing I wondered about was if Drew already had one. Seems like it would be the very thing for his collection!!!

As for me, I have what I need.

After all, I don't want to be piggy.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:48 am

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jan 28, 2011, 10:07AMHahaha... When I saw dj's reference to a Hawaiian surfer, the very first thing I wondered about was if Drew already had one. Seems like it would be the very thing for his collection!!!

As for me, I have what I need.

After all, I don't want to be piggy.

Aloha,
Richard
But Richard, that Silver Plated 1946 LA Super would look good in ANYONE"S collection. Piggy or not.

Never had figured out why they call them "The Hawaiian model". I've only saw 3 of them before - pretty rare... and pretty cool.

T.

ttf_Richard Tadaki · Post by **ttf_Richard Tadaki** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:28 pm

Well, Troy, you're doing better than me. I never even heard of a Hawaiian model, and I live here!

Anyway, I hope Drew picks up on this and finds one. He's a pretty good hunter when it comes to finding interesting trombones.

Aloha,
Richard

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:24 am

The trombone just got here. My local expert (TWCB Bone) declares the slide to be excellent, like new.
Pictures will follow next soon, I promise

serial number on inner and outer slide 115xx

serial number on bell 7 111xx

fluted inner slide

"Made by FE Olds & Son Los Angles Calif" some engraving "Super Olds" some engraving.

is it unusual for the serial numbers not to match on vintage Super Olds? Anyone have any idea of why the bell has 7 preceding the serial number? Could that be the bell size?

case shows its age, end flaps are pealing.

Pictures will follow.

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:26 pm

Quote from: sly fox on Jan 29, 2011, 11:24AMis it unusual for the serial numbers not to match on vintage Super Olds? Anyone have any idea of why the bell has 7 preceding the serial number? Could that be the bell size?Based on what I've seen, non-matching serials are pretty common; I'm thinking matching numbers might actually be less common than non-matching, but my sample is far too small.

Yes, the 7 indicates a 7" bell.

Glad to hear it's got a good slide. That's always a concern on horns that old.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:30 am

in examining my Super Olds, I noticed that I had to feel the inner tubes before I could tell they were "fluted". Also the "fluting" ended at the stockings. Is this common? Or do I need new glasses. I found the following patents regarding "fluted" slides:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=zdBNAAAAEBAJ&printsec=drawing&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.google.com/patents?id=0Pp9AAAAEBAJ

any thoughts?

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:46 am

The stockings are round. Otherwise you would never get a good seal.

In order to tell fluting I need to look at a reflection of a line of light like a fluorescent tube; you see the discontinuities. Or I take off my glasses; I'm extremely nearsighted.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:04 am

Quote from: sly fox on Jan 29, 2011, 11:24AMThe trombone just got here. My local expert (TWCB Bone) declares the slide to be excellent, like new.
Pictures will follow next soon, I promise

serial number on inner and outer slide 115xx

serial number on bell 7 111xx

fluted inner slide

"Made by FE Olds & Son Los Angles Calif" some engraving "Super Olds" some engraving.

is it unusual for the serial numbers not to match on vintage Super Olds? Anyone have any idea of why the bell has 7 preceding the serial number? Could that be the bell size?

case shows its age, end flaps are pealing.

Pictures will follow.

I asked Euphanasia about the serial numbers on Olds being 5 digit on the slide and 6 on the bell section.
He said it was common for Olds to do that and also more common then not to have non-matching numbers.
Mine is as you describe Sly so that's two horns anyway that fit that description.
Mine is an LA Super as well. The serial number puts it at 1955 which I think is the year they moved to Fullerton so maybe mine was assembled in Fullerton with an LA bell??

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:22 am

Pictures of the 1938ish Super Olds are now in my gallery. for those who haven't been there yet, click on "goodies" above and then on "gallery". The pictures show the engravings on the kranz on the bell. According to T, the engraving is hand done, not stamped. They show the bell section, the outer slide and inner slide. The "fluting" does not show. the instrument certian shows some "vintge marks". As does the case but it still protects the instrument.

Comments are welcome.

ttf_Steven · Post by **ttf_Steven** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:00 am

So how does it play? I like my (late model Fullerton) Super. It is supple. Not nearly as bright as some other trombones that small.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:08 pm

Comments??

Well....
1) You got a cool case. It should have a "curtain", that flips over the bell and snap fastens to the inside of the case. Looks like it's gone, but if you get ingenious and re-do that case - you can add the curtain back. Those are the COOLEST cases IMHO.

2) the tone ring/Krantz - is one of the wide ones!!! NICE! Mines much smaller/thinner. It is hand engraved. From '35 - '42, all are hand engraved.
After WWII, when they went back to making Supers again(in 1946), the tone rings had the lettering "stamped" into them. You got a COOL one.

3) 7 inch bell... I had 5 Supers, only 1 had the 7 inch bell (others were 7.5 inches). I like the 7 inch bell Supers better.

Compact, can peal wallpaper at 20 yards... projects like a laser!!

I'd have the dents popped out, and if the patina looks good to you - I'd leave it be. If the patina is rough, polish the lacquer off with wrights.
Awesome horn dude. Congrats!

T.

ttf_mdunn · Post by **ttf_mdunn** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:49 pm

Quote from: mdunn on Jan 30, 2011, 07:04AMI asked Euphanasia about the serial numbers on Olds being 5 digit on the slide and 6 on the bell section.
He said it was common for Olds to do that and also more common then not to have non-matching numbers.
Mine is as you describe Sly so that's two horns anyway that fit that description.
Mine is an LA Super as well. The serial number puts it at 1955 which I think is the year they moved to Fullerton so maybe mine was assembled in Fullerton with an LA bell??

Now that I've seen the pics I realize mine is only like yous in respect to the non-matching serial numbers.
You have a real classic! Very cool!

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:53 pm

have you folks seen this article for the Super Olds, it contains a link to a 1935 catelogue as well

http://www.robbstewart.com/Olds/OldsSuperTrombones.html

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:32 pm

Tis' a Good horn...welcome to the family...

ttf_tbone62 · Post by **ttf_tbone62** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:48 pm

The serial numbers don't match on my L. A. Super. I think it dates to about 1954.

And congratulations on your new horn!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:28 pm

Look at the numbers and you can see the year it was made...for the bell at least...

ttf_tbone62 · Post by **ttf_tbone62** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:30 pm

The serial number on the slide is 2099**, and the bell is 1705** (located on the slide receiver part of the bell, just above the threads). It has "Super Olds F.E. Olds and Son, Los Angeles, California U.S.A." on the tone ring.

From the lists I've found, I'm guessing it was made in late 1955 or early 1956?

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:17 am

Sounds right, and I'm sure we're all looking at the same list of serial numbers. Perhaps this bone's slide was lost in a horrible 1955 mythbusters-esk 1812 overture and had to be replaced. Horrible...awesome...that's for you to decide

ttf_tbone62 · Post by **ttf_tbone62** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:50 pm

It was probably a conspiracy to keep us guessing all these years later!

Hmmm.....

Whatever happened, it's in good shape and it sounds great!

ttf_mdunn · Post by **ttf_mdunn** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:10 am

Quote from: tbone62 on Feb 01, 2011, 07:30PMThe serial number on the slide is 2099**, and the bell is 1705** (located on the slide receiver part of the bell, just above the threads). It has "Super Olds F.E. Olds and Son, Los Angeles, California U.S.A." on the tone ring.

From the lists I've found, I'm guessing it was made in late 1955 or early 1956?

My Olds Super has 177*** on the bell and 171** on the slide. The bell number makes me think it's pretty close to yours.
Haven't been playing it much lately as I've been more on the 2B but this thread has me thinking I need to get it out.
Cheers!

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:55 am

This discussion has prompted me to check the serial numbers on mine:

OLDS (round logo)
RECORDING
MADE BY
F.E.OLDS & SON
LOS ANGELES
CALIF

Bell and slide 111707, matching serial numbers

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:34 pm

Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Jan 26, 2011, 10:11AMWelcome Allen- I'm a probationary member of the Olds crowd myself (I own one, but have only played it for like 20 minutes before bringing it to get dedentified/aligned/etc).

Hopefully I'll have some pics and further insight on the thing in a week or so.

pictures where are the pictures

, is your Olds back yet?

just returned from my local repair guy. he is going to do a little touch up and try to limit the deterioratoin of the case. I found an "Olds" #3 mouthpiece at his shop which he is going to let me have at a good rate. I'll check to see which is better, the one I gave the HS with the Fullerton Olds Special or this one and swap if necessary.

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:55 pm

Here is more info on the article I referred to above.

http://www.robbstewart.com/Olds/OldsSuperTrombones.html

it is well worth the read:

QuoteOlds Super trombones are familiar to anybody who has been around brass instruments for an extended time. They were very popular in their day, which lasted from about 1935 until production ended in 1979. There are probably more than 10,000 of them in existence and you can buy one in decent shape for just a few hundred dollars.

They are immediately recognizable by the bell garland or "Tone Band" with the make and model engraved or stamped. The earlier versions were even nicer with lightweight red brass bells, all other parts nickel silver, the inside slide tubes were fluted to reduce friction and the signature hand engraved on he tone band. The earliest tone bands were 1" wide compared with the later examples at 5/8". ...This catalog can be dated by the fact that it illustrates the fluted slide tubes as they were in the original patent of November, 1935. In this, the inside slide tubes had grooves rather than the flat sides and probably proved impractical and may have never been in production. The idea was refined and patented again in January, 1938 (applied for Sept. 1936). ...
link to 1935"olds" catelogue:

http://www.theoldsregister.com/catalogs/Olds%20Catalog%201930(c).pdf

ttf_sly fox · Post by **ttf_sly fox** » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:32 am

some thoughts about my '38ish Super Olds:

I love the sound, especially when my "local" expert - TWCB Bone - plays it

I like the look, it has "vintage marks" to show its age but isn't in too bad of shape and the slide is great.

you can see the "facets" under fluorescent lights, but not household lights

does anyone know when Olds stopped producing the duaoctagonal slide for the "Super Olds"

the hand grips on the slide is taken some time to get used too as they are uniquely shaped

they are also preventing my trombone stand from working correctly, I have the Hercules stand which holds the trombone by the grip. I can only place it onto the stand by using the top slot, it won't fit otherwise.

the case is interesting, TS mart has several which has a "curtain" which goes over the instrument when in the case and the unfolds to cover the outer case bottom. My case does not have that, I wish it did, but rather it has a leather strap which covers the slide and bell and snaps inside. It was loose but we applied hot glue and it is holding so far. It weighs a ton though

I've started lessons again and have swallowed my pride. We are starting at the beginning which I need. wish me luck.