Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

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Bloo
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Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by Bloo » Wed May 15, 2019 8:56 pm

So, basically a tenor with an Eb trigger attached. Looking for the versatility of a bass, but projection and sound of a tenor. Basses are just too open for me, and I really don't much care for the sound. I play on a Bach 50K right now, and it's decent, just not the sound I want out of a bass.
I'm partial to vintage Conn horns, and new Getzens.
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Burgerbob
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by Burgerbob » Wed May 15, 2019 9:04 pm

There are plenty of basses out there that will play differently than a 50K3.
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Bloo
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by Bloo » Wed May 15, 2019 9:10 pm

Burgerbob wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:04 pm
There are plenty of basses out there that will play differently than a 50K3.
50K3 isn't the only bass trombone I've tried. I've played several Yamahas, a couple of Getzens, and a G bass trombone (fun, but impractical.)
The Yamahas were closest to the sound I wanted, but it's still too open for me.
I'm partial to vintage Conn horns, and new Getzens.
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Matt K
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by Matt K » Wed May 15, 2019 9:34 pm

I have one. Well, it's tuned to F/D (it's dependent). I had to have it made custom though. Are you looking for one? Seeking to have one made? I can elucidate on mine if you're interested. I've toyed with the idea of selling the valve section (it's setup for Shires). Bit of a long story that I don't have time for tonight but basically I wanted a small bass and it sort of worked for that but I prefer an 'actual' bass. I do really like it though, fwiw!
Specialk3700
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by Specialk3700 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:48 pm

What is the sound you want?
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Posaunus
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by Posaunus » Wed May 15, 2019 9:50 pm

So you want a dual-valve tenor (0.547" bore, or perhaps 0.547"/0.562" dual bore) with an 8½" bell?
This will be hard to locate, I think.

Have you tried smaller mouthpieces (e.g., Bach 2G, Schilke 58, Wick 2AL, etc.) on your 50K?
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by hyperbolica » Wed May 15, 2019 9:51 pm

There are some horns between tenor and bass. Olds S20, P24g, P22, S23, Holton TR159 conn 88hk, King 5b, Wessex super tenor. Maybe some others.

Look for horns with 9" bell and/or Dual Bore slide 547/562.

I put a Duo Gravis valve set on a Olds S20, and got something that plays more like a tenor, but has 2 valves.

There was a thread about it called "small bass" not that long ago https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... 601#p74601
Last edited by hyperbolica on Thu May 16, 2019 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
paulyg
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by paulyg » Wed May 15, 2019 11:23 pm

The bore size and bell throat are what set bass trombones apart from tenors.

If you can, try a .547/.562 dual bore slide. Chances are, this will be exactly what you want.

Going smaller in the bell throat, you are going to seriously compromise the low register response that characterizes a bass trombone.

A tighter leadpipe may be another option to explore.
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by mrdeacon » Thu May 16, 2019 12:18 am

Specialk3700 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:48 pm
What is the sound you want?
This. Maybe a better question for OP is what you want to do with the horn? Do you just want to be able to play low notes or are you trying to play bass parts in Big Band, Wind Ensemble or Orchestra?

Your Bach 50BK3 is not a small horn. That's a pretty large bass with the open valves. Those Yamaha basses aren't very large... 9 1/2" bells with rotors and single bore slides... those are average sized horns. I wouldn't go much smaller than that if you're looking to play true bass parts.

As others have mentioned have you tried horns with different leadpipes? What mouthpiece were you using? If you're used to a 5G a Schilke 60 is always going to feel like a bathtub.

You can always have an Eb attachment made for your large tenor. On my old old single bass I used to have extenders that let me play with a solid bE which made it super easy to hit low B natural in true 7th. Cheap and easy way to get the low B without breaking your arm off trying to get flat 7th and lipping the note down.

There's also getting good at false tones :pant:

I personally wouldn't go down the rabbit hole of putting two rotors on a large tenor. You sure can but you're going to be putting a lot of money into a frankenhorn and you have no idea if it's going to be what you want or not.

Moral of the story is make sure you're using the right tool for the job!
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Basbasun
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by Basbasun » Thu May 16, 2019 2:40 am

Bach 45B, add a 2nd valve, dependant I wold prefer, not to tamper with gooseneck.

"There's also getting good at false tones :pant:"

Actually not as difficult as most people think, many place the slide in the same place as one octave up, you get the notes that way, but not the sound. One position down to get useful tones. Buzz the tones in the mouthpiece untill you can buzz down to at least the pedals with resonant sound.
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by hyperbolica » Thu May 16, 2019 4:15 am

I agree that the throat has an effect, but as a practical matter, we don't have a way to compare throats. Throat diameters or expansion rates are never published. You'd have to physically gain access to each model to measure the bell right in front of the top turning slide.

Maybe we should start another thread as a throat diameter database.
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by brtnats » Thu May 16, 2019 5:01 am

You don’t care for the sound because they’re “too open for you.” You’re not getting enough compression in your horn for the tone to develop properly. Rather than ripping apart tenors hoping for solutions, start with your own bass. If the horn is too open, try a mouthpiece that’s a little smaller with a smaller throat. You need some compression somewhere in the system provide you with resistance.

Also, keep in mind that the modern bass trombone is designed to fulfill SEVERAL roles simultaneously. It has to be able to act like: A Bb tenor, Bb/F tenor, G bass, F bass, BBb/contrabass, and possibly more. That’s a lot to ask of one instrument, both in timbre and approach, but it’s clearly capable of doing it. That suggests to me your issue is in the mouthpiece/leadpipe and not necessarily in the horn.
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by Kbiggs » Thu May 16, 2019 8:08 am

brtnats wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 5:01 am
You don’t care for the sound because they’re “too open for you.” You’re not getting enough compression in your horn for the tone to develop properly. Rather than ripping apart tenors hoping for solutions, start with your own bass. If the horn is too open, try a mouthpiece that’s a little smaller with a smaller throat. You need some compression somewhere in the system provide you with resistance.

Also, keep in mind that the modern bass trombone is designed to fulfill SEVERAL roles simultaneously. It has to be able to act like: A Bb tenor, Bb/F tenor, G bass, F bass, BBb/contrabass, and possibly more. That’s a lot to ask of one instrument, both in timbre and approach, but it’s clearly capable of doing it. That suggests to me your issue is in the mouthpiece/leadpipe and not necessarily in the horn.
I would also suggest that you might want to re-examine your personal concept of tone quality. What do you think a bass trombone should sound like? What do you want to sound like? What do other people say about your bass trombone sound? Are there any bass trombonists who have a sound you want to emulate? What is it about their sound that is attractive?

Sometimes, “too open” (i.e., too little resistance) means that your embouchure and aperture are too large (compression like brnats said). Try for a more focused sound by experimenting with the size of the aperture and your lower jaw position, that is, make them a little smaller. Bass trombonists have a tendency, esp. in the States, to want to play “too big” with equipment and embouchure/aperture. This often results in a woofy, fluffy, indeterminate sound that takes a lot of air, doesn’t project, has little brilliance to it.
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
bigbandbone
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by bigbandbone » Thu May 16, 2019 8:19 am

Try a small shank mouthpiece with an adaptor.?
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JohnL
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by JohnL » Thu May 16, 2019 10:54 am

Bloo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:56 pm
So, basically a tenor with an Eb trigger attached. Looking for the versatility of a bass, but projection and sound of a tenor. Basses are just too open for me, and I really don't much care for the sound. I play on a Bach 50K right now, and it's decent, just not the sound I want out of a bass.
Are you really after a tenor sound/feel (i.e., what you get with your current large bore tenor)? Or is it just that the 50K3 doesn't float your boat?

At this point, pretty much all of the "tweener" horns have been mentioned - but if what you really want is a tenor sound and feel, that needs a tenor trombone. The tweeners will all probably still be bigger than you want. You're probably looking at having a tech add the second valve; be a waste to spend all that money on a horn that doesn't tick off all of your other boxes.
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by JohnL » Thu May 16, 2019 2:24 pm

Apologies for the back-to-back posts.

Depending on whether the price is within reach, this might be just what the OP is looking for:
https://www.dillonmusic.com/used-shires ... rmationtab
Tremozl
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Re: Bass Trombone with boring and bell size of a tenor?

Post by Tremozl » Sun May 19, 2019 9:13 am

I met a professional a few months ago whose main horn was a trigger tenor modified with a dependent D attachment. This is probably similar to / what you're looking for.
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