Rath R10 vs Lawler

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Dbone
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Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by Dbone » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:50 am

How does the tone, play and build quality of Rath R10 compare to Lawler trombones?
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by TheSheriff » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:17 am

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Build quality of both is excellent. As to the other stuff, well, you gotta play 'em!

I have way more time on a Lawler trombone than I do a Rath trombone. I've only play tested several Rath's, never owned one. I find a Lawler to be very rich and character filled with a touch of rawness to the sound which is what I love about them. To me, a Rath is more legit sounding.

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by FeelMyRath » Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:33 am

The R10 is fully modular, you can make it play and sound how you want it to, depending on your setup. There is no such thing as The R10, there are too many permeatations to make generalisations. I'm guessing the same can be said about Lawlers, but we don't have them on this side of the pond.
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by TheSheriff » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:52 pm

FeelMyRath wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:33 am
The R10 is fully modular, you can make it play and sound how you want it to, depending on your setup. There is no such thing as The R10, there are too many permeatations to make generalisations. I'm guessing the same can be said about Lawlers, but we don't have them on this side of the pond.
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A Lawler is available in a variety of materials and bore sizes but they will all have that raw, hip, funkiness to their sound that I love, and so do many other folks. I have never played or heard a Rath that has those qualities. A Lawler has a very unique signature to its sound.

A Lawler can be had anywhere in the world. All you have to do is order one.

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by mrdeacon » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:35 pm

I always describe my R1 as a super charged Bach 16. They share a number of design similarities with Bach.
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by TheSheriff » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:36 pm

mrdeacon wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:35 pm
I always describe my R1 as a super charged Bach 16. They share a number of design similarities with Bach.
====

Good description.

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by AndyBaker » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:38 pm

I'm in the enviable position of having both, and I've spent a lot of time playing both. Actually, I have owned 4 Raths, and 4 Lawlers (currently have 2 of each) - They are all wonderful trombones!

Both are beautifully made, and fully customizable so it is going to come down to personal preference - I don't think anyone could say that one is better than the other.

As for sound? They are quite different. The Lawler definitely has a unique sound - it's very personal and has a 'fuzz' or something to it. A beautiful jazz sound.
The Rath is somehow more 'pure' and compact.

Like I said, they're both beautiful - Buy one of each!

(Or if you're in Chicago, you can come and try mine)
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by mrdeacon » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:43 pm

Would you guys the Lawler as Conn 6Hish?
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by AndyBaker » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:47 pm

mrdeacon wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:43 pm
Would you guys the Lawler as Conn 6Hish?
Not really - I mean, more similar to a Conn than a Bach perhaps. But it's its own thing.
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by LIBrassCo » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:35 am

I have a customer with both, I will ask his opinion. I will also add he brought his Lawler to me for a slide alignment, and I was very impressed with the horn. Besides being an excellent value for the money, he's doing some interesting stuff on those horns, that gives them a very unique sound. I would highly recommend them.
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by Mikebmiller » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:08 pm

I love my Lawler, but have never played an R10. But I have an R3/F and it is great. So you can't really go wrong.
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by Dbone » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:26 pm

For those with Lawler experience, what model do you play and what is your set up? Roy seems to prefer a complete yellow brass trombone, but I’ve read a lot on this site with red brass stems and nickel silver slides.
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by Mikebmiller » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:57 am

I was looking for a lead horn for big band. I ended up with red brass bell, 7 1/2" red brass flare, and nickel silver slide. I have bought an 8" red brass flare since then, but not played on it much.
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by AndyBaker » Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:22 pm

Dbone wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:26 pm
For those with Lawler experience, what model do you play and what is your set up? Roy seems to prefer a complete yellow brass trombone, but I’ve read a lot on this site with red brass stems and nickel silver slides.
.500/.508 bras slide with nickel bottom bow. 25 gauge (heavy) bell stem (yellow) and a nickel neck pipe.

Bell flares:
22 gage red-brass 7.5", no bead - Killing lead set-up
25 gage yellow 8 with traditional bead - Plays much bigger, like a .525 horn.
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by DaveAshley » Wed May 01, 2019 5:16 am

I picked my components at Roy's shop almost 3 years ago. Mine is a .025 yellow stem with all-nickel .500 slide. I have four flares - 8 inch .022 yellow, 8 inch .025 bronze, 7 3/4 .022 red, and 7 1/2 inch silver plated .022 yellow. I mostly use the bronze flare. It's simply incredible. I use a Kanstul W6 leadpipe. In fact, I may have it soldered in soon. It's easily the best match for me.
Yes, the setup is heavy, but it doesn't PLAY heavy!
I stopped playing the horn for about a year because I was having some problems with pain in my hands. I switched my grip a little and came back to it a few months ago. I'm glad I did! It's a super-refined horn with the deepest, richest, dare I say "manliest" sound I've ever gotten from a trombone. Seriously!! I can still play pretty and sweet on it, though.

I've got to try the other two models some time. Maybe I'll visit the shop again...
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by Dbone » Tue May 14, 2019 9:16 pm

Hi Dave,

Thank you for your comments on the Lawler trombone. I particularly like the descriptive words: warm, rich, and “manliest”.

This seems to match the same sentiments of the Sheriff and Andy Baker. The Lawler must really have a unique sound, which is very appealing.

For those with experience with the Lawler, does the bell stem alloy make much of a difference in the sound? I am particularly interest in the red brass vs the yellow brass. It seems like the bell flare has a greater impact on the color of the sound, but I am curious about the experiences from the owners.

Thanks,
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by DaveAshley » Tue May 14, 2019 11:12 pm

When I visited Roy's shop, I brought along my Earl Williams 6. I aimed to choose components to achieve a sound as close as possible to that of the Williams. I don't remember what differences I noticed in the red & yellow stems, but I do remember that Roy and I flat-out agreed that the yellow suited me better. That makes sense, since the Williams has an all-yellow bell section.Now, I can hardly say that my Lawler sounds like my Williams. Both instruments are their own thing! I might venture to say that the nickel or brass outer slide has more impact than the stem! I guess it all depends on the individual player.
If you're within a reasonable/affordable travel distance from Shelbyville, Tennessee, the best thing to do is visit the shop!
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by TheSheriff » Wed May 15, 2019 7:51 pm

Dbone wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:16 pm
Hi Dave,

Thank you for your comments on the Lawler trombone. I particularly like the descriptive words: warm, rich, and “manliest”.

This seems to match the same sentiments of the Sheriff and Andy Baker. The Lawler must really have a unique sound, which is very appealing.

For those with experience with the Lawler, does the bell stem alloy make much of a difference in the sound? I am particularly interest in the red brass vs the yellow brass. It seems like the bell flare has a greater impact on the color of the sound, but I am curious about the experiences from the owners.

Thanks,
======

The stem material definitely makes a difference in the sound as does everything else. I prefer the sound I get from my red stems but I also like the sound of Andy Baker's yellow stem. Ultimately, we end up sounding like we always do.

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by MalecHeermans » Wed May 22, 2019 1:08 pm

Dbone wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:26 pm
For those with Lawler experience, what model do you play and what is your set up? Roy seems to prefer a complete yellow brass trombone, but I’ve read a lot on this site with red brass stems and nickel silver slides.
I really dug the idea of going all brass and had been gravitating toward more brass for a long time. Since Roy is also really into it that's what I went for:

.500 all yellow brass slide
22 gauge yellow brass stem
22 gauge 7.75" yellow brass flare with traditional bead

He also sent a .508 slide for me to try (which was fantastic, I would have kept it if I had the extra dough) and a 20 gauge 8" yellow brass flare which I didn't care for. I was looking for something with splash, which this had, but it also had a tinny trash can lid kind of thing that I didn't care for.

I'm using mine quite often now after finally getting it sorted and breaking it in a bit. The solo on this is actually with the Lawler, though I had my Shires for the video shoot:

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by MalecHeermans » Wed May 22, 2019 4:20 pm

And, more to the point, here I am working some stuff out on a Shires .500 and a Lawler .500 at Dillon's. Special thank you to the folks at Shires for sending down some components to try.

I did play a Rath R10 that day and I would say it was closer to the Shires - big and more rounded sound than the Lawler.

The Lawler, as you will hear, is incredibly responsive and has it's own very American small bore burly sound.

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by TheSheriff » Sat May 25, 2019 12:58 pm

MalecHeermans wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:20 pm

The Lawler, as you will hear, is incredibly responsive and has it's own very American small bore burly sound.
=====

Perfect description of a Lawler, Malec.

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by Trevorspaulding376 » Sat May 25, 2019 1:25 pm

Sheriff I see you have a model 1 and model 3 which do you prefer ? What differences do you notice in the 2 in terms of response and tone
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by TheSheriff » Sun May 26, 2019 7:32 pm

Trevorspaulding376 wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:25 pm
Sheriff I see you have a model 1 and model 3 which do you prefer ? What differences do you notice in the 2 in terms of response and tone
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Go over to the Lawler thread and see my response from April, 30th.

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by Dbone » Mon May 27, 2019 8:09 pm

Malec,

Which did you prefer in your tryout at Dillons? The Shires or the Lawler? The sound seemed more clear with the Shires, but more rich and interesting with the Lawler - to me anyway.

Thanks
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by MalecHeermans » Wed May 29, 2019 9:30 am

Dbone wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 8:09 pm
Malec,

Which did you prefer in your tryout at Dillons? The Shires or the Lawler? The sound seemed more clear with the Shires, but more rich and interesting with the Lawler - to me anyway.

Thanks
Well I bought the Lawler 8-)

That said the Shires is a very fine instrument and compared favorably to the Lawler, it just was less of what I was looking for in this particular application.

In general I think you're description of the two sounds is apt.

I will also say that I ended up with a Shires #2 leadpipe in the Lawler, which does bring it a bit more toward the sound of the Shires horn. I was playing a Lawler pipe in the comparison video.
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by MahlerMusic » Wed May 29, 2019 10:13 am

MalecHeermans wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:20 pm
And, more to the point, here I am working some stuff out on a Shires .500 and a Lawler .500 at Dillon's. Special thank you to the folks at Shires for sending down some components to try.

I did play a Rath R10 that day and I would say it was closer to the Shires - big and more rounded sound than the Lawler.

The Lawler, as you will hear, is incredibly responsive and has it's own very American small bore burly sound.
Thanks for the video. The two do sound very different. I listened with good headphones and I did not look at the video and the difference is night and day.

Like you mention the other part of this is leadpipe (and mouthpiece) after playing a bunch of horns a few years ago I picked one, then ended up trying the other 2 leadpipes that it came with it. I do not remember which one I picked but then the mouthpiece that came with the horn ended up working way better then the one that I was using to test all the trombones. I'm very happy with what I picked but who knows what the other trombones would be like with different pipes and mouthpiece. Plus Playing with others can change how you feel about the horn.

We really are lucky today because back in the day you would just have to play a King or Conn.
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by TheSheriff » Wed May 29, 2019 3:16 pm

MahlerMusic wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 10:13 am
MalecHeermans wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:20 pm
And, more to the point, here I am working some stuff out on a Shires .500 and a Lawler .500 at Dillon's. Special thank you to the folks at Shires for sending down some components to try.

I did play a Rath R10 that day and I would say it was closer to the Shires - big and more rounded sound than the Lawler.

The Lawler, as you will hear, is incredibly responsive and has it's own very American small bore burly sound.

We really are lucky today because back in the day you would just have to play a King or Conn.
===

Or a Bach or a Martin or a Williams or a.....

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by MahlerMusic » Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 pm

LOL... who plays a Bach for Jazz :pant: just kidding :D
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by salsabone » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:48 pm

Mahlermusic, You should have Glenn Dodson(Phil. Phil Principal trombonist for many years) play Dixieland jazz on his Bach 6!!!!
Sherrif - Will Roy be at the ITF this year ay Ball st. Univ>?
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by TheSheriff » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:41 am

salsabone wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:48 pm
Mahlermusic, You should have Glenn Dodson(Phil. Phil Principal trombonist for many years) play Dixieland jazz on his Bach 6!!!!
Sherrif - Will Roy be at the ITF this year ay Ball st. Univ>?
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I don't know if Roy will be there. I could ask him, but knowing him like I do I get the feeling he's not big on doing shows. Word of mouth and the internet keeps him busy fulfilling orders. But I'll ask him.

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by TheSheriff » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:53 pm

salsabone wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:48 pm
Mahlermusic, You should have Glenn Dodson(Phil. Phil Principal trombonist for many years) play Dixieland jazz on his Bach 6!!!!
Sherrif - Will Roy be at the ITF this year ay Ball st. Univ>?
=====

Roy tells me that he will not be there but Schmitt music will be, and they'll have some Lawler trombones on display.

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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by salsabone » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:16 pm

That will have to do. I was intending to bring a pristine 1947 Martin committee for him to see, considering it was what as I understand was the beginning basis for his current designs!! OH Well. By the way this trombone is a Killer horn.
Kevin
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Re: Rath R10 vs Lawler

Post by TheSheriff » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:14 am

salsabone wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:16 pm
That will have to do. I was intending to bring a pristine 1947 Martin committee for him to see, considering it was what as I understand was the beginning basis for his current designs!! OH Well. By the way this trombone is a Killer horn.
Kevin
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Roy has a 40's Committee too as well as one that is a .500 bore. I've had several of them over the years and always liked them. His horns play like a supercharged Committee.

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