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Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:10 am
by pfcastor
On average how far do you need to pull the tuning slide on an Single F-Trigger Trombone to make tune the trigger to an E-trigger? I know it will depend on the specific horn but I am just looking for a ball park to determine if my very old closed wrap has the space and length to pull to E. As many many moon ago back in my college days the e-pull or double trigger were not common and not really required.
Thanks,
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:21 am
by hyperbolica
You've got a smart phone? A tuner maybe? It's the distance between trigger 1st position and trigger 2nd position.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:48 am
by pfcastor
Thanks that helps!
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:13 am
by CalgaryTbone
Most open wraps won't pull to E - the width of the wrap of the valve tubing in open wrap means that generally the length is reduced. The old Conns had a line etched in the F attachment tuning slide to show where it became an E attachment. I can pull the tuning slide on my thayer valve enough to get a good low C, but the B will still be sharp even if I have it out as far as it goes.
Jim Scott
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:40 am
by Burgerbob
You'll have to trial and error it. Sometimes the mark on the tuning slide on an old horn isn't quite right.
Just tune the attachment to E in the staff (not below, it's easier).
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:35 am
by LeTromboniste
CalgaryTbone wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:13 am
Most open wraps won't pull to E - the width of the wrap of the valve tubing in open wrap means that generally the length is reduced. The old Conns had a line etched in the F attachment tuning slide to show where it became an E attachment. I can pull the tuning slide on my thayer valve enough to get a good low C, but the B will still be sharp even if I have it out as far as it goes.
Jim Scott
It should be noted that most horns can't have a solid low B even if they have an E pull, as it requires longer inners than most horns have (and probably longer arms than most people have). My Hagmann wrap pulls even a bit further down than E and still no good low B because even then it's simply off the end of the slide.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:40 am
by harrisonreed
If you need E pull on a tenor, you're either playing Jan Sanstrom's trombone concerto, or you're trying to use a tenor for something a bass is better suited for.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:27 pm
by Specialk3700
harrisonreed wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:40 am
If you need E pull on a tenor, you're either playing Jan Sanstrom's trombone concerto, or you're trying to use a tenor for something a bass is better suited for.
Single valve basses aren't as rare as many people make them out to be. They're actually pretty common.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:34 pm
by pfcastor
I am using a very old OLDS S-22 Single trigger Bass Trombone. So I am hope that the F-Trigger Tuning Slide has enough length for a pull to E.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:49 pm
by hornbuilder
The ability to pull to E has nothing to do with the wrap shape or width. It is purely a function of hiw long are the telescoping slide tubes. Case in point, both Conn 88 and 72 have a full E pull, but Bach 42 and 50 do not, even though they both feature similar traditional closed wrap. The open wrap 42 and 50 "could" have it, but the slide tubes were made too short, even though there is more than enough straight tubing to make it possible.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:22 pm
by harrisonreed
So, the longest pull design would be two nearly touching parallel straight tubes coming out of the valve that could even incorporate a telescoping mechanism, a la "the firebird" trumpet?
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:43 pm
by JoeStanko
Another option is tubing to alter from an F attachment to an E, bE or Eb attachment, then practice to determine positions and swapping the tubing in and out.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:33 pm
by LeTromboniste
hornbuilder wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:49 pm
The ability to pull to E has nothing to do with the wrap shape or width. It is purely a function of hiw long are the telescoping slide tubes. Case in point, both Conn 88 and 72 have a full E pull, but Bach 42 and 50 do not, even though they both feature similar traditional closed wrap. The open wrap 42 and 50 "could" have it, but the slide tubes were made too short, even though there is more than enough straight tubing to make it possible.
Well it does have to do with the wrap shape and width in that more curves and a wider design both use up more tubing that could otherwise have been straight.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:53 pm
by Savio
I think there is some misunderstanding here. Hornbuilder is right. Pull to E doesn't have anything with wrap or if it is bass vs tenor. It depends only on one factor. How long you can pull the F trigger tuning slide. And OP ask how long to pull it. My conn bass have a mark about 14 cm. Then the low C will be about 6th position. The B will still be a little high in extended 7th position. Then I pull it some more and I get the low B.
Leif
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:02 pm
by JohnL
pfcastor wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:34 pm
I am using a very old OLDS S-22 Single trigger Bass Trombone. So I am hope that the F-Trigger Tuning Slide has enough length for a pull to E.
Not even close.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:00 pm
by pfcastor
JohnL wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:02 pm
pfcastor wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:34 pm
I am using a very old OLDS S-22 Single trigger Bass Trombone. So I am hope that the F-Trigger Tuning Slide has enough length for a pull to E.
Not even close.
I am puzzled by your comment. I just Measured the F-Trigger tuning slide on my S-22 it has a total length of just over 17 cm. I notices a ring scribed on to the tuning slide at 14.3 cms. I do have a tuner so I'll be testing the impact of the slide pull.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:44 pm
by JohnL
pfcastor wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:00 pm
I am puzzled by your comment. I just Measured the F-Trigger tuning slide on my S-22 it has a total length of just over 17 cm. I notices a ring scribed on to the tuning slide at 14.3 cms. I do have a tuner so I'll be testing the impact of the slide pull.
Never mind. I saw “very old” and thought “flat wrap” (S-20). An S-22 should have plenty of length.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:42 am
by Hacksaw
Some older horns, like my 1962 Reynolds single-trigger bass, have an adjustable stop for the E. It certainly makes for a quicker, non-visual change.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:30 am
by Bach5G
Conn 88H has an E pull? On the trad wrap only I would think. Or also on the open wrap?
( L - o - n - g)
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:06 am
by BGuttman
Bach5G wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:30 am
Conn 88H has an E pull? On the trad wrap only I would think. Or also on the open wrap?
( L - o - n - g)
The old closed wrap Conn 88H attachments did have a long enough tuning slide to pull to flat E. This coupled with a slightly longer hand slide makes low B possible, although it's right at the end of the slide.
Most open wraps don't have enough length in the tuning slide to pull to E.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:51 pm
by cctbone
My old 72H F tuning slide had a E tuning mark. I preferred to play it in E tuning so that the
below the staff could be played in 6 and the B in long 7th.
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:48 pm
by Schlitz
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Re: Pull to E
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:59 am
by harrisonreed
Really?? Not cool...
Re: Pull to E
Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:27 am
by imsevimse
I try to play the part with the valve in F. I might pull to flat F to have a slight sharp C on the far end of the slide. Then all the other positions on the trigger is on the flat side, but that's not difficult to compensate. The F on first will be to flat and that's the drawback I lip down the c or use a false note. All B's are played as a false tone on T3.
/Tom