YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

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TraderPat
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YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by TraderPat » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:48 pm

I have an older YSL-648 (doesn't seem to be a very common horn; I can't find a lot of information about it). I'm trying to build my low register, but the horn sounds very stuffy with the trigger, especially low F and and lower. Pedals with or without trigger don't speak very well for me. I've tried mouthpieces from 1-1/2G to 51D. I am also a euphonium player, and I play on a larger bore instrument, so I know I have enough air. Is this just a bad horn? I can't find any air leaks or anything, and the valve appears to be aligned properly.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Posaunus
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by Posaunus » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:52 pm

Should not really be "stuffy." Have a competent tech take a look at your valve (and the F-attachment tubing). Lots of things could need attention.
walldaja
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by walldaja » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:29 pm

You may want to see if you can blow a spit ball through the horn.
Dave

Antoine Courtois AC280BO with Yamaha 58L
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2bobone
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by 2bobone » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:40 pm

For about the price of one of today's "craft" beers, you can buy a borescope, attach it to your laptop or smartphone and run it through the entire instrument while observing on your device's screen. Then you'll see if there are any obstructions or if the valves are REALLY properly aligned. Those "witness" marks on the upper valve plate are notoriously incorrect ! Try it --- you'll like it ! Cheers !!
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Matt K
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by Matt K » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:53 pm

TraderPat wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:48 pm
I have an older YSL-648 (doesn't seem to be a very common horn; I can't find a lot of information about it). I'm trying to build my low register, but the horn sounds very stuffy with the trigger, especially low F and and lower. Pedals with or without trigger don't speak very well for me. I've tried mouthpieces from 1-1/2G to 51D. I am also a euphonium player, and I play on a larger bore instrument, so I know I have enough air. Is this just a bad horn? I can't find any air leaks or anything, and the valve appears to be aligned properly.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
What are you comparing against? It is going to feel a LOT different in that range than it does on your euphonium.
mrdeacon
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by mrdeacon » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:09 pm

Matt K wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:53 pm
TraderPat wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:48 pm
I have an older YSL-648 (doesn't seem to be a very common horn; I can't find a lot of information about it). I'm trying to build my low register, but the horn sounds very stuffy with the trigger, especially low F and and lower. Pedals with or without trigger don't speak very well for me. I've tried mouthpieces from 1-1/2G to 51D. I am also a euphonium player, and I play on a larger bore instrument, so I know I have enough air. Is this just a bad horn? I can't find any air leaks or anything, and the valve appears to be aligned properly.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
What are you comparing against? It is going to feel a LOT different in that range than it does on your euphonium.
This is the answer. Practice is what will fix it.

Remember OP the Euphonium is both free blowing and has a lot of resistance when all the valves are pressed down. Blows much different than a large bore tenor.

Make sure to relax. Don't open up your face too much. The low register really isn't that low much like how the high register really isn't that high. Sometimes we all move around too much when we play.
Conn 88H 1980s, Elliott XT
Rath R1 2000s, Elliott XT
Minick Bass Trombone 1980s, Symington 1 1/2
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BGuttman
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by BGuttman » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:10 pm

Also, make sure you are using correct slide positions in the trigger range. They are farther apart than on the open instrument. The 648 is not compensating like some Euphoniums.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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Savio
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by Savio » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:17 am

I just did put some oil on all moving parts on my 70h valve. I only had trumpet oil, but it immediately plays better all over. And it's more quiet. I also put a few drops on the slide. Can't hurt? I think it's also useful to use the valve a lot. The resistance might be a little different and we might have to use the air a little different. But we can get used to it with some practice.
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brtnats
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by brtnats » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:29 am

The 648 was a Yamaha clone of the Conn 88H. I’ve not played one, but I can’t imagine a Yamaha-engineered horn based on an 88H would be a bad model. I’m a +1 on the practice side.

“Stuffy,” to me, often suggests that the compression points aren’t where you’d like them to be. If you’re a euphonium player, you’re used to a radially different air column inside the horn than a trombone. With a euph, just sneezing at it can vibrate the air column. A trombone’s air needs to be pushed, and the kind of air changes from high to low, and from open to valved. Slow down and warm up your air, and practice long tones and slurs for a week on the valve, and then reassess. You’re going to have to push the air, but it’s not going to be going particularly fast.

Don’t screw around with too many mouthpiece choices! For now, it’s probably wise to use what you use for your euphonium in order to keep some of the setup the same. After you adjust your air speed, intensity, temperature, and volume, then play with mouthpieces.
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greenbean
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by greenbean » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:31 am

Alan Raph will show you the way...
TraderPat
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by TraderPat » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:44 am

Thanks for all the suggestions. I am certainly not discounting that the issue is me; very likely it is! I bought the horn used from eBay a couple of years ago and never had it checked out, so I wanted to at least take any mechanical problems out of the equation. I'm taking it to the shop today. :-)
Backbone
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by Backbone » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:18 pm

greenbean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:31 am
Alan Raph will show you the way...
Love this video! Why? Cause it works!!
TraderPat
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by TraderPat » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:27 pm

Backbone wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:18 pm
Love this video! Why? Cause it works!!
I think this will help quite a bit when I get the horn back. Dropped it off for a thorough cleaning and inspection so I should hopefully have it back by the weekend.
TraderPat
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by TraderPat » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:31 am

I got my horn back, and have been diligently practicing; the Alan Raph exercise has been helpful in getting the low register to speak, but alas, it still sounds stuffy. When I go from a 6th position open low F to a T1 low F and below, the sound is definitely worse. I don't feel like the horn is resonating well and I am having to force it. I'm going to start looking at different instruments to get an idea of whether it's just this horn or a common issue.
etbone
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by etbone » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:05 pm

1st. thing, low f on open horn, is flat 6th or even 7th position on most horns.
2nd. trigger notes, will sound stuffy, compared to open horn. Due to more bends in the attachment. You have to practice going in and out of the trigger notes. Mr. Ralph, has been playing for over 50 years....so playing low notes, is the same as playing high notes. Takes a lot more practice, to make it look/sound easy. It ain't.
3rd. Use a Bach 5 or 4, or Schilke 51 (no d or e cup) The Ysl -648 is a tenor trombone. Going too deep a cup, will only hurt your progress.
4th If you really, want to play bass parts...then buy a Bass trombone. Trigger notes, will still sound stuffy, compared to open horn.
5th buy a good intermediate tenor/bass warm up book. It's amazing, what proper a dedicated warm up exercise will do. Improvement comes, over time and patience.
norbie2018
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by norbie2018 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:10 pm

etbone wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:05 pm
1st. thing, low f on open horn, is flat 6th or even 7th position on most horns.
2nd. trigger notes, will sound stuffy, compared to open horn. Due to more bends in the attachment. You have to practice going in and out of the trigger notes. Mr. Ralph, has been playing for over 50 years....so playing low notes, is the same as playing high notes. Takes a lot more practice, to make it look/sound easy. It ain't.
3rd. Use a Bach 5 or 4, or Schilke 51 (no d or e cup) The Ysl -648 is a tenor trombone. Going too deep a cup, will only hurt your progress.
4th If you really, want to play bass parts...then buy a Bass trombone. Trigger notes, will still sound stuffy, compared to open horn.
5th buy a good intermediate tenor/bass warm up book. It's amazing, what proper a dedicated warm up exercise will do. Improvement comes, over time and patience.
You can tune the f to be in tune in first position.
Trigger notes DO NOT sound stuffy on a good horn.
Yes, you need to practice them to make them sound good, but if the horn is the problem no amount of practice will make it sound great.
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by JLivi » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:35 pm

greenbean wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:31 am
Alan Raph will show you the way...
5:43: - "Ah, that's good because it sounded bad. I have some room for improvement."

He got so excited to sound bad. LOL!!! I wish more players, mainly my students, understood that sounding bad isn't necessarily a bad thing, but they must see it as an opportunity to improve.
TraderPat
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by TraderPat » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:22 pm

I went and played two Bach 42Gs today, one with the Thayer valve, and one with the rotary valve. My wife, a non-musician, was with me and noticed the horn with the Thayer valve sounded "brighter." Next, I tried the rotary valve and she immediately said, "Well that sounds like what you have at home." I felt the same way; the Thayer valve horn was the clear winner. I think I may go with that one. The difference was amazing to me.

Correction: it has an Infinity valve. Not sure of the difference yet, but it felt great.

The low range is important to me, but a bass bone would be overkill. My main gig is playing for musicals in a community theater, and I'm the only trombone, so I need the higher range and sound of a tenor with occasional forays into the basement, if you will.
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sirisobhakya
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Re: YSL-648 Stuffy low register w/trigger

Post by sirisobhakya » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:22 pm

TraderPat wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:22 pm
I went and played two Bach 42Gs today, one with the Thayer valve, and one with the rotary valve. My wife, a non-musician, was with me and noticed the horn with the Thayer valve sounded "brighter." Next, I tried the rotary valve and she immediately said, "Well that sounds like what you have at home." I felt the same way; the Thayer valve horn was the clear winner. I think I may go with that one. The difference was amazing to me.

Correction: it has an Infinity valve. Not sure of the difference yet, but it felt great.
The Infinity valve is an updated Thayer valve with additional bearing, and should have higher durability. The principle of action is the same.

Some like the less resistance of the Thayer (or axial-flow derivatives), some including me like the more resistance of the rotor. I feel Thayer and other axial flow variants too open and harder to center and push. However I do like Hagmann valve (approx. half way between the resistance of rotor and axial).

Some traditional rotor is more open than the others. Factors like bore size, passage shape, and overall size of the rotor have effect on how open it is.
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