TromboneChat

I am considering the purchase of a King 5B Silversonic made in the mid 1960’s at Eastlake.
It’s not clear to me if the bore is .536 or .547. I have played a 3B most of my life. I am looking for a second horn with a trigger. Some have referred to this 5B as a small bass, others have referred to it as a large tenor. I would use it mostly for orchestra and band work.

Anyone have any experience and/or opinions on the 5B as a second horn? (I have looked at both the 4B and 3B as well - I haven’t seen any for sale that I like).

"The King 5B trombone is sometimes called a 'jazz bass'. It has a 9 inch bell and a bass trombone bell throat, but a .547" bore."

Older 5B's are dual bore 0.536/0.547.

Newer 5B's are single bore 0.547.

I know any one labeled 2105 is single bore. Don't know about older ones (1480/1485).

The 5B is a good symphony horn and can work as a small bass with older Big Band charts. I had a 5B and a 4B at the same time and decided to sell the 5B because it seemed more diffuse than the 4B. The guy I sold it to loves it.

"The King 5B trombone is sometimes called a 'jazz bass'. It has a 9 inch bell and a bass trombone bell throat, but a .547" bore."

I have no experience with 5Bs, but the mid-60s were good years for King. Silversonics can be wonderful.

This could be a gem. Good luck.

Are you able to examine the horn in person? It's pretty easy to tell whether it's dual-bore. Just GENTLY insert the mouthpiece in the stocking end of the inner slide tubes. If it bottoms out at the same depth in both, it's single bore. If it bottoms out at different depths, it's dual bore.

There was a 1970 King trombone brochure uploaded to the old forum. It showed the older-style 5B (1480/1485) and listed the bore as .536".

My 1971 King catalog shows the #1480 5B to be .536 bore, 9" bell, and my 1973 catalog shows it to be .547 bore. Another way you might tell if a trombone is dual bore: take the outer slide off, flip it upside down and put it back on the inner slides so the water key is on top. If it fits nicely, odd are single bore.

The 1480 can be a really amazing horn, IMO. I think the 5B is not as good.

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:30 pm My 1971 King catalog shows the #1480 5B to be .536 bore, 9" bell, and my 1973 catalog shows it to be .547 bore. Another way you might tell if a trombone is dual bore: take the outer slide off, flip it upside down and put it back on the inner slides so the water key is on top. If it fits nicely, odd are single bore.

Unless it's like a King 2B; they're dual bore, but the stockings are the same size.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 pm The 1480 can be a really amazing horn, IMO. I think the 5B is not as good.

I'd say the 1480 is a better choice if you're going to use it primarily as a bass, while the later 5B is a better choice if you're looking to use it mainly as a tenor.

Just to point out an error that might confuse someone further down the line : ---- "If it bottoms out at the same depth in both it's single bore" ---- "If it bottoms out at different depths, it's DOUBLE bore". [not single bore]. OK - Carry on ------

The 1480 can be a really amazing horn, IMO. I think the 5B is not as good.
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I'd say the 1480 is a better choice if you're going to use it primarily as a bass, while the later 5B is a better choice if you're looking to use it mainly as a tenor.
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The King catalogs I have, both the one showing .536 bore and the later one showing .547 bore, list "1480 King 5-B SYMPHONY BASS". A 1480 is a 5B, and a 5B is a 1480. My 4B from the same era is listed as a "1404/F KING 4-B F ATTACHMENT, but has only "King 4B Sonorous" on the bell and not the model number. What is strange is that they list a "1404 KING" which is a straight .547 horn identical to the 4B-F except for the F attachment but don't list it as a 4-B. They don't list a 5B straight horn, not sure if they ever made one. My head is now officially spinning! Whatever they are called in the catalog and on the bell, I would say an early .538 bore 5B is a better choice as a large tenor, the .547 bore 5B for a small bass.

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:16 pmThey don't list a 5B straight horn, not sure if they ever made one. My head is now officially spinning! Whatever they are called in the catalog and on the bell, I would say an early .538 bore 5B is a better choice as a large tenor, the .547 bore 5B for a small bass.

What the catalog specs don't tell you is that the old version has .562" tubing through the F-attachment, while the newer version has .547" tubing through the f-attachment.

But that begs the question: which version of the 5B is shown in the 1973 catalog? The old version or the new version? Which wrap does it have?

There was a straight version of the old Symphony model was the 1410 (1460 with a silver bell). The straight horns were dropped sometime around 1948.

Love the placement of the trigger on the 5B, feels / looks more natural. There are some nice ones available. Enjoy the hunt.

Thanks so much to each of you for the replies and the incredibly helpful information!

I’m told the bore is .536.

In your collective opinions/experience, what are the limitations of this horn? For example, would it play well in a brass quartet?, a small holiday quintet or sextet gig?, orchestral solo?

Bruce - you mentioned yours was more diffuse than your 4B. Was it less focused, less crisp?

I wouldn't hesitate for a second to use a 1480 5B in any of the situations you mention. I might hesitate to play Big Band lead on it, but I think that's the only limitation.

Note that some of the 5B's with smaller bore may take a small shank mouthpiece. You might want to check that. That can limit the mouthpiece size for use as a "small bass".

I felt my 5B (a 2105) was less crisp than the 4B.

Thanks Bruce!!

Keep in mind that anything said regarding the later, 4B-based 5B does not necessarily apply to the earlier design (and vice versa). They're actually very different instruments. Even though King used the same model number for both, they don't have very many parts in common.

Thank you John. Since this one was made around 1966 in Eastlake with the .536 bore, do you consider it the “later” or “earlier” design? (I’m thinking earlier in the context of the posts.)

dfeheley wrote: ↑Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:25 am Thank you John. Since this one was made around 1966 in Eastlake with the .536 bore, do you consider it the “later” or “earlier” design? (I’m thinking earlier in the context of the posts.)

I'd want to see a pic to be definitive, but if it actually dates from 1966, it's the earlier design.

I expect you'll find it's actually dual bore .536"/.546".

One from the mid-1960's should have two tuning crooks in the f-attachment.

This is an earlier version; looks like a slightly different wrap.

And this is the later "4B-based" 5B. Note the different valve and wrap.

Thanks for these pictures John. Really helpful. It is definitely the earlier version with the more pronounced cap on the valve and the more perpendicular wrap and the one I’m looking at looks very similar to the first picture of the Silversonic except that the f tuning is brass. That said, is this the one you thought might play better as a tenor or as a bass?

F tubing, not tuning, is brass

I consider the older version to be a better all-around horn, and a better choice for that "tweener" niche between large tenor and bass trombones. Put into words, I'd say the older version is more of a small bass while the newer is more of an extra-large tenor.

Thanks again for your help John! I very much appreciate it.

Many years ago (~25) I played in a band with a trombonist with a German horn and a trombonist with a King 5B. It seems the 5B was 536ish/547. The German horn was about the same. And both bells were the larger 9 inch size. And both horns played very similar.

John/all: assuming this horn is dual bore (.536/.546), what are the playing/tonal implications as compared to a more common .547 large bore tenor?

I've had a number of 5B's in the past including 3 at one time (all the "newer" 4B-based versions) including a silversonic 5B (pretty rare - I've only seen one other) as well as a straight 4B silversonic and I would definitely agree with the "large tenor, not small bass" assessment. I've since gone a different direction and play mostly smaller equipment now and all the Kings are gone except for when I need a true bass bone.

phil

IMHO, the old dual-bore Symphonies play big. Like I said - it's more like a small bass trombone than a large tenor. One possible issue is that they will normally have the old King-style mouthpiece receiver, which can cause issues with standard shank mouthpieces. I've never noticed a problem myself, but I have heard of others complain about it.

Thanks again John. At this point I have probably way “overthought” this but I think I prefer a horn that plays like a tenor not a small bass. I’m going to keep my eyes out for a good 4B.

I have a mint 1950 vintage 1480 in brass. As I understand it, the bell has a broader throat than a 4B, so it can get a fatter bass sound if demanded. In my experience, it responds really well to mouthpiece changes, meaning you can play it with different sounds depending where you end up in a section. Very flexible horn. I also recommend testing a brass one before you fall in love with the idea of a heavy sterling bell. If you're anywhere near San Francisco, try mine.

Thank you so much! Very helpful and great advice.Unfortunately, I’m on the other side in MA. I’ll ask around here though, and see if I can find one to try.

Bart Varsalona , the bass trombonist with Kenton's band before George Roberts, and the pioneer of the use of bass trombone for big band played a King Symphony. He was originally playing tenor with Kenton and claimed he had seen a "bass trombone" in a store while on tour, was intrigued by it and the price was right, so he bought it . He played it in the section, and Kenton loved it. Obviously, there were true bass trombones around in the 1940's, but King was marketing it as a "bass voice". Compared to a section of King Libertys and Conn 4-6h's, it was pretty big. The 3B and the Bach 16 didn't even exist until the early 1950's or so. Keep in mind that most orchestras at that time were mostly made up of .522 horns for the tenor chairs and .525-.547 horns certainly weren't being played by commercial players. Aside from large symphony orchestras and maybe some concert bands, there wasn't much call for a true .562 bass trombone, and even in a lot of those cases, the bass trombonist was often playing a German made instrument. The 88H wasn't even available as a standard offering at that point, although they could be special ordered. Bach had the model 40, which was kind of like a King Symphony. The fact that a Bach 40 is rarer than hens teeth shows that there wasn't much of a market for that size horn, and King appears to have cornered that part of it then. .547' ish horns were kind of in a no man's land place back then.

I have a question about King 5B slides. I have a newer style King 5B Silversonic. I have noticed that the slide is beginning to wear out at the stocking. Are the King 4B and 5B (.547) slides interchangeable?